Once Saved - once lost ???

[AV]

We are joined to God by faith (beginning and continuing in faith- Col.1:23, 1 Cor.15:1-2) Faith is our will and God's will becoming one as in marriage (see here for more info- conceal a thing). But as in marriage (becoming one) there can be a divorce; but once you've divorced and left your husband and became another man's- you could not come back to your first husband (Dt.24:4). We partake of the divine nature of God by believing the bible (2 Pt.1:4) but we can be removed from this faith by believing damnable heresy which overthrows faith (2 Tim.2:18, 1 Tim.4:1).

 

[steaver]

Otherwise it would have said something like this:

"... why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to [me - Peter, a man, etc] ..."

Wonder why Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, found it necessary to explain to them that they did not just lie to man but rather lied unto the Holy Ghost.

He could have said something like this:

"....why did you knowingly lie to the Holy Ghost?....."

Additional questions;

If they were born of God, children of God, why do you think God didn't deal with them as His children and grant them more grace for their sins, even repentance?

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." (James 4)

 

[steaver]

We are joined to God by faith.......Faith is our will and God's will becoming one as in marriage

But you are leaving out the rebirth, regeneration, born of God, which is not by the will of man. Man only receives the gift, the call of the Holy Spirit to submit and allow God to do His will in the new birth.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1).

But as in marriage (becoming one) there can be a divorce

God never granted a divorce. He allowed Moses to grant divorces for the purpose of mercy. Jesus said it has always been one man and one woman for life. This is another reason to understand OSAS, as you point out, it is a marriage with Christ and this cannot be broken by man or God.

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt 19:8)

Even if two who are married divorce by a written decree from a state, through the eyes of God they are still married, however separated. And if they remarry, they live under a state of grace and mercy granted by God for their adultery.

We partake of the divine nature of God by believing the bible

I believe the bible emphasizes we partake through the Spirit within that cries ABBA Father. (Romans 8) If we say it is just by believing the bible, what does that mean? Baptist understanding, Catholic understanding, SDA understanding?

This is why God had to make saved so very simple. Salvation is through calling upon Jesus Christ to save and God makes sure that the person who calls stays eternally saved. You don't get saved by grace through faith not of yourselves and then spend the rest of your mortal life trying to stay saved of yourself.

If only every sect of Christianity would hear the Holy Spirit through Paul's words..."
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2Co 11:3)

 

[AV]

But you are leaving out the rebirth, regeneration, born of God, which is not by the will of man. Man only receives the gift, the call of the Holy Spirit to submit and allow God to do His will in the new birth.


God never granted a divorce. He allowed Moses to grant divorces for the purpose of mercy. Jesus said it has always been one man and one woman for life. This is another reason to understand OSAS, as you point out, it is a marriage with Christ and this cannot be broken by man or God.

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt 19:8)

Even if two who are married divorce by a written decree from a state, through the eyes of God they are still married, however separated. And if they remarry, they live under a state of grace and mercy granted by God for their adultery.

I believe the bible emphasizes we partake through the Spirit within that cries ABBA Father. (Romans 8) If we say it is just by believing the bible, what does that mean? Baptist understanding, Catholic understanding, SDA understanding?

This is why God had to make saved so very simple. Salvation is through calling upon Jesus Christ to save and God makes sure that the person who calls stays eternally saved. You don't get saved by grace through faith not of yourselves and then spend the rest of your mortal life trying to stay saved of yourself.

If only every sect of Christianity would hear the Holy Spirit through Paul's words..."
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2Co 11:3)

You "partake of the divine nature" by the revelation of the scripture- which is given by the Holy Ghost. We have received the Spirit which is of God that we might know the things given to us freely by him- in words that the Holy Ghost speaks. You can't separate our connection with God by faith from his words (Rom.10:17).

The divorce point still stands as while God hates divorce- he permitted it for fornication.

Yes- we don't begin by the Spirit and then are made perfect by the flesh (Gal.3:3, 5:1-7). It is of faith that it might be by grace (Rom.4:16). But you are not acknowledging that we keep the faith by looking unto Jesus as its author and finisher. Notice in your passage (2 Cor.11) Paul was concerned that their minds could be corrupted into believing another gospel or another Jesus (v4).

 

[steaver]

You "partake of the divine nature" by the revelation of the scripture- which is given by the Holy Ghost. We have received the Spirit which is of God that we might know the things given to us freely by him- in words that the Holy Ghost speaks. You can't separate our connection with God by faith from his words (Rom.10:17).

True, so why do Christians disagree on doctrines? Are they not all partaking?

The divorce point still stands as while God hates divorce- he permitted it for fornication.

It does not stand. God permitted Moses to allow it for mercy. God permitted David to have hundreds of wives and even concubines, does that mean God does not view this as sin?

This is Grace. ALL sin each and every day!
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

But you are not acknowledging that we keep the faith by looking unto Jesus as its author and finisher. Notice in your passage (2 Cor.11) Paul was concerned that their minds could be corrupted into believing another gospel or another Jesus (v4).

I do notice this, and Paul also tells them to examine themselves to see if they really have been saved. (13:5)

It's never have you been saved and become lost. It is always have you been saved to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubthave continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1Jo 2:19)

 

[AV]

True, so why do Christians disagree on doctrines? Are they not all partaking?



It does not stand. God permitted Moses to allow it for mercy. God permitted David to have hundreds of wives and even concubines, does that mean God does not view this as sin?

This is Grace. ALL sin each and every day!
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."



I do notice this, and Paul also tells them to examine themselves to see if they really have been saved. (13:5)

It's never have you been saved and become lost. It is always have you been saved to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubthave continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1Jo 2:19)

Christians if they are indeed Christians would have to believe the basic core doctrines for their salvation. If you deny Jesus is the Son of God according to the scriptures you are not a Christian. If your faith is in your faith or in your works then it is not in the finished work of Christ by God's grace.
I've answered these objections if you care to check them out- conceal a thing
I think the point was missed regarding marriage.

 

[AV]

Christians if they are indeed Christians would have to believe the basic core doctrines for their salvation. If you deny Jesus is the Son of God according to the scriptures you are not a Christian. If your faith is in your faith or in your works then it is not in the finished work of Christ by God's grace.
I've answered these objections if you care to check them out- conceal a thing
I think the point was missed regarding marriage.

I acknowledge that when Christians disagree on doctrine other than essentials they are still saved albeit in error and not following the Spirit as closely as they ought.

 

[steaver]

I acknowledge that when Christians disagree on doctrine other than essentials they are still saved albeit in error and not following the Spirit as closely as they ought.

There again though, how can one partake of the Holy Spirit through the spirit and the Word and come to two opposing beliefs? Same Spirit, same Word, opposing beliefs.??

 

[AV]

The flesh and the Spirit are warring. Heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). So in the same way a Christian may sin (not unto death- 1 Jn.1:9-2:1, 5:16-17) they might believe an error. It is a lack of faith and not following the Spirit (1 Jn.2:26-27). But because the Lord loves his children he rebukes and chastens them (Heb.12:5-11; Rev.2-3) and they have space to repent and endure the chastening of the Lord by faith in his power to work in them that which is well pleasing in his sight.

 

[steaver]

I think the point was missed regarding marriage.

My point or yours?

Marriage according to God is until death do you part. A piece of paper allowing a divorce was only by permission by God displaying His mercy and grace upon hardened hearts. Note that anyone granted a divorce/separation was not to marry another, why, because marriage is between a man and a woman until death parted them. It is the same between a person and Christ being united as one through the rebirth. We become married to Christ until death do we part, that is, spiritual death, which is an impossibility since the regenerated life/marriage given at the marriage is eternal.

 

[Yeshua1]

now you are being silly!

Yes or no?

 

[steaver]

The flesh and the Spirit are warring. Heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). So in the same way a Christian may sin (not unto death- 1 Jn.1:9-2:1, 5:16-17) they might believe an error. It is a lack of faith and not following the Spirit (1 Jn.2:26-27). But because the Lord loves his children he rebukes and chastens them (Heb.12:5-11; Rev.2-3) and they have space to repent and endure the chastening of the Lord by faith in his power to work in them that which is well pleasing in his sight.

All good stuff, but how do we apply these scriptures you posted to OSAS as true or false?

Who is in error and how is the Lord rebuking and chastening them?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think OSAS is close to the truth. Where it errs is saying we are saved by faith in Christ alone (which is true) and makes faith a freewill choice to receive the gospel, but continuing in the faith or walking by faith is then removed from us. I agree that OSAS is only consistent within Calvinism
But to answer which sin would cause you to 'lose your salvation'? (I prefer depart from the faith) The sin unto death would be departing from your faith in the Son of God unto another gospel or another Christ. But once someone departs from the Living God they have eternal damnation having cast off their first faith and cannot be renewed again unto repentance. (which I argue at some length here if you are interested- conceal a thing: Calvinism ).

To really lose eternal life, one would have to be able to snatch themselves out of the hand of the Father, Jesus blood no longer cleanses from all sins, and the person can break the seal of the Holy Spirit!

 

[AV]

My point or yours?

Marriage according to God is until death do you part. A piece of paper allowing a divorce was only by permission by God displaying His mercy and grace upon hardened hearts. Note that anyone granted a divorce/separation was not to marry another, why, because marriage is between a man and a woman until death parted them. It is the same between a person and Christ being united as one through the rebirth. We become married to Christ until death do we part, that is, spiritual death, which is an impossibility since the regenerated life/marriage given at the marriage is eternal.

I acknowledged that God hates divorce and he doesn't design it. But Jesus permitted it for fornication- you might not agree- Mt.5:32, 19:9. Also God used marriage as a sign of the salvation covenant.

 

[AV]

All good stuff, but how do we apply these scriptures you posted to OSAS as true or false?

Who is in error and how is the Lord rebuking and chastening them?

The Lord knows those that are his and he chastens them. Also the churches are to recognize aberrant behavior and doctrines and deal appropriately.

 

[steaver]

I acknowledged that God hates divorce and he doesn't design it. But Jesus permitted it for fornication- you might not agree- Mt.5:32, 19:9. Also God used marriage as a sign of the salvation covenant.

I do agree! "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Marriage with Christ is a very perfect analogy of OSAS.

 

[steaver]

The Lord knows those that are his and he chastens them. Also the churches are to recognize aberrant behavior and doctrines and deal appropriately.

With all due respect, that does not address my questions.

 

[AV]

To really lose eternal life, one would have to be able to snatch themselves out of the hand of the Father, Jesus blood no longer cleanses from all sins, and the person can break the seal of the Holy Spirit!

Again, I deal with these issues as well if you are interested; I don't have the time unfortunately to detail these things this moment. But if you care to read- conceal a thing

 

[AV]

I do agree! "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Marriage with Christ is a very perfect analogy of OSAS.

The point again is that divorce is also an analogy to departing from God.

 

[AV]

With all due respect, that does not address my questions.

I'm not sure what you are looking for. I gave you general truth regarding how the Lord corrects his children. Are you looking for particulars? Like when Paul noted heretics by name and instructed on admonishing them and then rejecting them?