One call...or two

[Iconoclast]

For more in depth discussion of Calling = click either klesis or Called = kletos)

Calling (2821) (klesis - word study) means a call and was used for an invitation to a banquet. In the NT the word is used metaphorically of the call or invitation to come into the kingdom of God with all its privileges. Here "klesis" refers to the divine call by which Christians are introduced into the privileges of the gospel. God’s invitation (klesis) to man to accept the benefits of His salvation is what this calling is all about, particularly in the gospels. It is God’s first act in the application of redemption according to His eternal purpose (Ro 8:28). A distinction is made between God’s calling and men’s acceptance of it (Mt 20:16).

Klesis - 11x in the NT - Rom. 11:29; 1 Co. 1:26; 7:20; Eph. 1:18; 4:1, 4; Phil. 3:14; 2 Thess. 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 2 Pet. 1:10

The called are those who have been summoned by God...called...(the following phrases are meant to be read as one long sentence which gives a Biblical statement regarding calling)...

The called are those who have been summoned by God...called...

according to His purpose (Romans 8:28-note)


to salvation (Romans 8:30-note)


saints by calling (1Cor 1:2)


both Jews and Greeks (1Cor 1:24)


having been called "with a holy" (2 Timothy 1:9-note)


heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1-note)


out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9-note)


to walk worthy (Ephesians 4:1- note)


by grace (Gal 1:6)


not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles (Romans 9:24-note)


through the "gospel" that we "may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Th 2:14)


and be brought "into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" (1Cor 1:9)


and return in triumph "with Him" at the end of this age (Revelation 17:14-note).

God's great doctrine of our calling should cause all the "called of Jesus Christ" to exclaim "Glory!"

The call comes from heaven and is to heaven in its appeal. This world is not our home and dearly beloved, we need to quit acting like it is! Peter says clearly that we are "aliens and strangers" (1Pe 2:11, 12-note)

In the hall of faith chapter the writer describes those who by faith pleased God and who...

"desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them." (Hebrews 11:16)

And again the writer explains their "heavenly calling" declaring to his readers that...

"you have not come to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind...But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 12:18-24)

 

[psalms109:31]

There are so many who with distorted minds who have missed understood Paul letters and used that to distort all the other scriptures leaning on their own understanding not trusting in Lord Jesus headed to their own destruction. God is calling us to them to save a sinner from the errors of their ways and save them from death.

It is easier to believe that they are already saved than to believe God is using us believers to save men from destruction coming from their own error and understanding. I think we think too much of our selves that we to can't have a distorted mind leaning too much on our own understanding and not trusting in Jesus.

God does have no desire for men to be destroyed, but for them to repent and live and He uses men like us as His messengers to call all men to repent and live. There is many callings, but only Jesus can save us from this body of death.

Me as the old man, my first creation was ready for destruction, through the new birth and abiding in His word my new mothers womb, I have become born again a new creation in Christ. It is the upright one that was chosen before the foundation of the world, for Jesus is the only one who can claim that title so only in Him can I be chosen to. I praise God that Jesus has come to save sinners and I am the worst and I am saved by Him from destruction. We have to be born again in Him to be chosen before the foundation of the world, not one unbeliever that Paul said you was chosen before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here are a few quotes from a sermon on the saving of Zaccheus

Spurgeon,
2. Next it was a personal call. There were boys in the tree as well as Zaccheus but there was no mistake about the
person who was called. It was, “Zaccheus, make haste and come down.” There are other calls mentioned in Scripture. It
is said especially, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Now that is not the effectual call which is intended by the
Apostle when he said, “Whom He called, them He also justified.” That is a general call which many men, yes, all men
reject, unless there comes after it the personal, particular call, which makes us Christians. You will bear me witness that
it was a personal call that brought you to the Savior. It was some sermon which led you to feel that you were, no doubt,
the person intended.

[QUOTE3. Thirdly, it is a hastening call. “Zaccheus, make haste.” The sinner, when he is called by the ordinary ministry,
replies, “Tomorrow.” He hears a telling sermon and he says, “I will turn to God by-and-by.” The tears roll down his
cheek but they are wiped away. Some goodness appears but like the cloud of the morning it is dissipated by the sun of
temptation. He says, “I solemnly vow from this time to be a reformed man. After I have once more indulged in my
darling sin I will renounce my lusts and decide for God.” Ah, that is only a minister’s call and is good for nothing. Hell,
they say, is paved with good intentions. These good intentions are begotten by general calls.
The road to perdition is laid all over with branches of the trees whereon men are sitting, for they often pull down
branches from the trees but they do not come down themselves. The straw laid down before a sick man’s door causes the
wheels to roll more noiselessly. So there are some who strew their path with promises of repentance and so go more easily
and noiselessly down to perdition. But God’s call is not a call for tomorrow. “Today if you will hear His voice, harden
not your hearts: as in the provocation, when your fathers tempted Me.” God’s grace always comes with dispatch—and if
I of TULIP Effectual Calling (Irresistible Grace)
Volume 2 www.spurgeongems.org
3
3
you are drawn by God, you will run after God and not be talking about delays. Tomorrow—it is not written in the
almanac of time.
Tomorrow—it is in Satan’s calendar and nowhere else. Tomorrow—it is a rock whitened by the bones of mariners
who have been wrecked upon it. Tomorrow is the wrecker’s light gleaming on the shore, luring poor ships to
destruction. Tomorrow—it is the idiot’s cup which he lies at the foot of the rainbow, but which none has ever found.
Tomorrow—it is the floating island of Loch Lomond, which none has ever seen. Tomorrow—it is a dream.
Tomorrow—it is a delusion. Tomorrow, yes, tomorrow you may lift up your eyes in Hell, being in torment. Yonder
clock says “today.” Your pulse whispers “today.” I hear my heart speak as it beats and it says, “today.” Everything cries
“today.” And the Holy Spirit is in union with these things and says, “Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your
hearts.” Sinners, are you inclined now to seek the Savior? Are you breathing a prayer now? Are you saying, “Now or
never! I must be saved now”? If you are, then I hope it is an effectual call, for Christ, when He gives an effectual call, says,
“Zaccheus, make haste.”
4. Next, it is a humbling call][/QUOTE]

This is a good read:
http://www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-4.pdf

 

[Allan]

I say we should look at the call this way is that it consistent with scriptures speaking of us being called, and our calling and keeps in view that the call is not merely an invitation to be saved but is a call to, by, in, with and for.

While this is true.. the 'call' hinges entirely the 'to', for without it the 'by', 'in', 'with', and 'for' are void of any meaning. This 'to' aspect is where having understanding of what the message of the CALL is, as well as to whom it is sent, helps in working out the issues being discussed. At least in my opinion.

First, we must ascertain what the message of the Call is. Might I set forth:
Who Jesus is as well as what He has done. Thus establishing our sin, His Righteousness, and the Judgment to come.

Second, Message establishes the 'Call' itself in the message. Again might I set forth:

Repent/Believe (two sides of the same coin) that you might have eternal life (John 17:3 - eternal life.
Believe and have life - John 20:31 / Titus 1:16.. and in such we have the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38 /3:19).

The gospel call goes out through preaching and evangelism by imperfect men

Agree

The gospel as the Words of God is perfect, but it is through the “base things of the world” and the “foolishness of preaching where this word, this call goes out and there is a fallibility in the preaching of the gospel because of it.

Agree

The Holy Spirit must work in the message going out and this includes in the hearts and minds of men. This is due to the depravity in man (regardless of the degree of its totality understood) as a sin nature as well as the fallibility of the preacher.

Agree

Some to whom this message is sent forth receive it effectually in that they are put into a state whereby the finality of the call (glorification) is assured.

This needs to be fleshed out and defined more, since depending on the how one understands the wording you can have either agreement or disagreement

Some to whom this message is sent forth do not receive it effectually.

Again, needs to be fleshed out.

The difference in those who receive it effectually and those who do not is the new birth.

If this is the condition, then a complete disagreement is set forth here.
Reformed views on regeneration states when a man is regenerated he:
(1) given a new nature AND
(2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though admittedly some hold to this and others do not) AND
(3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND
(4) they are now IN Christ.

Ergo, with all the above man can now believe.

A thread on Regeneration would be fun, I have previously tried to create 3 do discuss it but few really engaged it (and of course you get the people who derail the threads)

The Holy Spirit must work in those who receive it effectually

While I agree with the majority of the sentence.. it is the last word that would need to be discussed and that would be better in another thread.

I have tried to avoid controversial statements in this list, please let me know if I have not succeeded.

Mostly, yes.

If in fact these statements are acceptable, then perhaps we can look more closely at what makes the call effectual, how it happens and is there an order to it etc. This is where I think we will find our disagreements.

This I believe is accurate and why I have stated repeated in these C/A threads.. the real issue is when regeneration takes place.. but secondarily not only what the 'Call' is, but to WHOM is it made. If the message of the Call is the same to both groups, then promise of the call is ALSO offered to both groups.

am suggesting that we (as hold to the Doctrine’s of Grace) can see the call as a single call in which those not elect have a part in as far as the message of the gospel is concerned

But that is part of the point here.. if the message of the Call is the same to all, then the promise of the Call is toward both groups if they will believe just as the condemnation toward both groups would apply if they reject it.

Furthermore, I suggest that framed as above, the “Arminian” position can accept that there is a call that is effectual only to those who have put their faith in Christ and “the called” in scripture refers to these exclusively. We can speak of the “effectual call” in this way suitable to both sides.

Again, if you are saying the effectual calling is the new birth, we are at a disagreement and need to open a new thread to discuss this point.

n dispute concerning this call then would be:
....
The main point of contention with respect to the call (as I see it): is faith a fruit of the Spirit wrought by a work of regeneration, or is faith the fruit of man stimulated by prevenient grace of the Holy Spirit which results in regeneration. (I would love to find a civil way to approach this issue)

This is what I think is the crux and many others on both sides agree with.
-Regeneration -
1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How it does it?

Also, can we not say that the call is not really an invitation as much as it is a summons closer to a command.

It is both in one. The word 'call' itself is used over and over in scripture and though it is an invitation it is also understood so as to elicit an action due to the message itself. So for me, we cannot do so biblically in removing the invitation aspect from the command any more than we can remove two legitimate options offered in the 'call/command/summons/invitation to whom the message goes out to. The Hell option is just as real for the elect in the calling as Heaven is and vise-versa for the non-elect. The fact they are legitimate options for obedience and disobedience does not negate the fact they will go where they are appointed to.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agree

Some to whom this message is sent forth receive it effectually in that they are put into a state whereby the finality of the call (glorification) is assured.

This needs to be fleshed out and defined more, since depending on the how one understands the wording you can have either agreement or disagreement


Some to whom this message is sent forth do not receive it effectually.

Again, needs to be fleshed out.

Is this the kind of verse you are thinking of???

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

This verse indicates that those who have the advantage of being among the saints of God.....of hearing of Divine love......but seek to offer their own version of obedience that is self,and fleshly based....have a greater judgement. We also see that principle here:


1.Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[Allan]

Allan
The historic facts of the gospel are identical

But it is not the historical facts in question here. It is those things which no man can come to know of by himself and for which the Spirit of the Living God was sent forth to convict man of. Thus these are not historical fact man can come to easily on his own but spiritual truths no man can know a part from the revealing work of God whereby to bring conviction.

In Hebrews 6 we read this:


They heard of the way of righteousness and were around true believers and yet turned away,...not having the Spirit.

I disagree on the passage interpretation you give. It is not about unbelievers since it emphatically declares "It is impossible for those who have...and are partakers of the Holy Spirit... IF they fall away, to renew (create in them a new creation) them again unto repentance.

The impossibility is about being renewed (unto repentance) if you one falls away (here meaning to leave Christ)

No. a man can be told facts and enlightened...but this is not being quickened as inEph2.

being quickened - made alive is ONLY found in Christ. The word 'in' relates to being a part of or one with.

If one is born-again or born-from-above the fact is they are birthed into a new family and as such are NOW a part of that family (unless we are birthed illegitimate/fatherless). But here brings up the issue as to what Born-again entails being that it is a new life (or a new creation). If they are birthed into the family of God then God is their Father and thus be in union with God as family. Now if we are a new creation such as a new birth is, then according to scripture Old things have passed away (literally - are no more) behold, all things have become new (without spot, taint, or blemish) In other words - sinless. This is what being reconciled to God is all about - justification or removal of sin which by nature is the other side of the coin regarding sanctification unto God.

The one of the many problems I see with the above with the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled, due to its meaning, is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God, making/establishing the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous BEFORE faith. All this without faith ever being exercised nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

 

[Allan]

Is this the kind of verse you are thinking of???

This verse indicates that those who have the advantage of being among the saints of God.....of hearing of Divine love......but seek to offer their own version of obedience that is self,and fleshly based....have a greater judgement. We also see that principle here:

No, I know of that and agree.. at least presume I do with you

I'm referring to fleshing out what Efficiency means or refers to as it is specific to what he is asking for everyone to potentially agree with

 

[Yeshua1]

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )



ONe of the points in question will obviously be point number four:

Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved[/B

Would they be like the group addressed in hebrews 6?

 

[Iconoclast]

Would they be like the group addressed in hebrews 6?

Yes...they would. They are apostates.It is clear in vs7-8....contrasted with the believers in vs9.

 

[Allan]

Semi-Pelagianism is a less radical view than full Pelagianism. It teaches that man is born with a measure of faith. Man's free will is able to act on that measure of faith when presented with the Gospel. As a consequence man is not completely fallen because of sin. This where the difference with the doctrines of grace comes into play. The latter teaches that man is, indeed, completely fallen in all his faculties, and is incapable of saving faith without intervention by God. The sinner does not have a measure of faith, capable of believing the Gospel.

Semi-Pel was only slightly less different from the Pel beliefs.

I disagree with much of this post and I will explain why since this is one of those subjects I have had to get into extensively many times. Historic Arminians or Reformed Arminians (not most Modern day Arminians) should really be understood as Semi-Cals not sem-Pels.

Most modern day Arminians (those who strayed from historic tenants are no longer Arminians but are in fact semi-Pels. (I will agree here)

Historical (Reformed) Arminianism has it's own core view that is different and distint from Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. In the historical Arminian view, is specific on the point that God must first initiate (because no man seeks after God of his own) but also that God must enable man to the extent and intent of man being allowed to either receive or reject God's salvation by grace (prevenient grace). The distinct separation of it from the Pel's and semi-Pels is the fact that man does not come to nor seek out God first but that the only way man would even know or desire toward God is that God seek out man first and enable him to respond

There should be a distinction made between them and not a blanket statement regarding anything not Reformed.

Free Dictionary:

Semi-Pelagianism
a heretical doctrine, of the 5th century that accepted the doctrine of original sin but asserted that man’s turning to God of his own free will, not after the provocation of the Holy Ghost, begins the process of spiritual rebirth. Cf. Pelagianism.

Wiki (yes, most reliable :laugh: )

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish.

From CARM:

Semi-Pelagianism
by Matt Slick

Semi-Pelagianism is a weaker form of Pelagianism a heresy derived from from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome. Semi-Pelagianism (advocated by Cassian at Marseilles, 5th Century) did not deny original sin and its effects upon the human soul and will. But, it taught that God and man cooperate to achieve man's salvation. This cooperation is not by human effort as in keeping the law, but rather in the ability of a person to make a free will choice. The semi-Pelagian teaches that man can make the first move toward God by seeking God out of his own free will and that man can cooperate with God's grace even to the keeping of his faith through human effort. This would mean that God responds to the initial effort of person and that God's grace is not absolutely necessary to maintain faith.

The problem is that this is no longer grace. Grace is the completely unmerited and freely given favor of God upon the sinner. But, if man is the one who first seeks God, then God is responding to the good effort of seeking him. This would mean that God is offering a proper response to the initial effort of man. This is not grace, but what is due the person who chooses to believe in God apart from God's initial effort.

Semi-Pelagianism says the sinner has the ability to initiate belief in God.
Semi-Pelagianism says God's grace is a response to man's initial effort.
Semi-Pelagianism denies predestination.

Note they hold that man's will is not bound by his sin nature
Note that man comes to God first.
Note that God responds to man for his actions (without divine aid enacted)
Note this rewarding is due to (what they perceive as) grace
Note additionally the cooperation they claim is between man and God is that man came first and God helped man out.

This is where the accusation of "man cooperating with God in salvation" comes from.

No, I see you as still incorrect. It is made on the foundation that semi-pel like Pels' believe that man can initially come to God (of his own desire) a part from any divine action (again, initially) but cannot make it completely and needs God. Thus the 'cooperation' is in the fact that God works with what man as already done to come to him, without His aid.

If man is completely and utterly fallen in his nature (incapable of exercising faith), and has to be made capable of believing by God, then God is completely sovereign in all facets of salvation.

No Arminian or Non-Cal disagrees with this. If God does not act and come to man first no man will ever believe because no man will ever know he has a need to.

If man possesses a measure of faith from birth, then man is not completely fallen in his nature. Man can cooperate with God in salvation by exercising that measure of faith. This is the source of much of our disagreements.

As shown above the cooperation you are speaking to negates the accusation you are implying.

However, for fun - Let us define 'cooperates' here.

co·op·er·ate   [koh-op-uh-reyt]
verb (used without object), co·op·er·at·ed, co·op·er·at·ing.
1. to work or act together or jointly for a common purpose or benefit.

2. to work or act with another or other persons willingly and agreeably.

So if a person is involved in anything to which the other party cannot fulfill what they are doing without first said party's involvement - it by definition is cooperation.

Let me ask an honest rhetorical question.
Will God save anyone who has not believed? Why not?
CAN God save anyone a part from faith? Why not?

If faith is a work and God will not and cannot save unless the person exercises faith/belief, then irregardless of where his faith came from or into being.. by definition man is cooperating with God.

I'm pretty sure Reformed theology is specific in that man can not be eternally saved a part from faith/believing in Christ.

I'm not arguing perse`, I speaking to the point of which the term cooperation is used to state that only Reformed theology doesn't cooperate with God when in fact, (If faith is a work) it necessitates it. Irregardless to any miniscule degree of what is considered man's part or responsibility.. man still must act in faith.

Now since faith, by scriptural definition, is not a work, we can safely state that faith can not be seen as cooperating with God for salvation as man does nothing to earn it, nor gives anything in exchange for it, nor but simply believes what God said. God saves man by His choice for His purpose and to His glory.

Therefore it appears that either both Reformed and Historic Arminians are either synergistic (since both claim man must believe or God will not save him), or both are Monergistic (meaning God is the one who saves and man did nothing to help save himself). As is what I argue (and all the non-Cals and Historic Arminians I know).. faith does not save anyone, God does. Faith simply agrees with the truth before it.

Lastly, most Christians I know who believe in the free will position have little to know idea about Pelagius, Pelagianism, or semi-Pelagianism. They have been taught the free will position and that is all they know. They maintain a happy inconsistency in their understanding in that they unwittingly hold to a semi-Pelagian understanding while at the same time rejecting it. I do not doubt the veracity of their profession. I hardly ever discuss this subject with people I meet. I do not want you or anyone else to think I on a witch hunt looking for semi-Pelagians. I most certainly am not! I am explaining what I believe to be the genesis of the modern free will theology.

What you gave is not Semi-Pel beliefs and thus most of those you know do not fall into that category.

How does this effect the subject of the call of God in respect to salvation? Well, if God must first make man able to believe then the Gospel call cannot be to all men even if all men hear it.

Unless God makes all men able to hear and respond

 

[convicted1]

Kudos Brother Allan. I think you have hit the nail on the head.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[kyredneck]

Donald Grey Barnhouse gave this explanation on the differences between the general call and the effectual call to salvation.

‘If men heed no more than the outward call, they become members of the visible church. If the inward call is heard in our hearts, we become members of the invisible church. The first call unites us merely to a group of professing members; but the inward call unites us to Christ Himself.’ Donald Grey Barnhouse, God’s Grace, God’s Freedom, God’s Heirs: Expositions of Bible Doctrines 7:171

“The outward call may bring with it a certain intellectual knowledge of the truth; the inward call brings us the faith of the heart, the hope which anchors us forever to Christ and the love which must ever draw us back to Him who first loved us. The one can end in formalism, the other in true life. The outward call may curb the tendencies of the old nature and keep a soul in outward morality; the inward call will cure the plague that is in us and bring us on to triumph in Christ” (God’s Heirs: Exposition of Bible Doctrines . . . , vol. 7, pp. 171, 172).

Elder Michael Gowens:

"The gospel call is an external appeal to the mind (Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. l 1:2; 2 Cor. 4:4). Luke says that Paul "reasoned with them out of the scriptures, opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:2-3). Do you see the element of logic, the rational dimension of the gospel, in those words? Read any sermon in Acts (Acts 2, 17, 26) and note the appeal to the mind. Why was Agrippa "almost persuaded to become a Christian" (Acts 26:28)? Because the sheer weight of Paul's testimony was so persuasive and compelling. Now this is not to say that the Gospel is strictly an appeal to man's natural intellect, but the fact that the gospel call is by its very nature rational (that is, it is a verbal communication which must be processed through the mind before it has an impact on the emotions) is unavoidable.

The effectual call, on the contrary, is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul. The effectual call is a call, in Augustine's words, by "Divine Imperative." It is an act of creation in exactly the same way that the origin of the universe was an act of creation. How did God create the universe? By the sheer power of His command, His creative fiat: "And God said, Let there be..." and there was. "Let there be" is a command, an imperative. In the beginning, "God commanded the light to shine out of darkness." It was a command, a fiat. By the mere utterance of His voice, galaxies, solar systems, planets, oceans, mountains, trees, rocks, air, atoms, and molecules were called into existence out of nothing. What awesome power!....."

".....The effectual call is a call to eternal salvation; the gospel call is a call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). The effectual call is a call to sonship; the gospel call is a call to discipleship. God speaks directly in the effectual call; God speaks through men in the gospel call. The effectual call is always obeyed; the gospel call is frequently disobeyed, shunned, and resisted. The effectual call is a creation; the gospel call is a communication. The effectual call is directed to the dead; the gospel call is directed to the living. The effectual call is an internal call; the gospel call is an external appeal. The effectual call produces life (2 Tim. 1:9); the gospel call produces light (2 Tim. 1:10). The sinner responds involuntarily in the effectual call (like Lazarus). The gospel call, however, calls for a voluntary, decisive response ("...harden not your hearts" - Heb. 3:15). The conclusive testimony of Scripture is that the effectual call precedes the gospel call and that the effectual call gives a man spiritual life, while the gospel call gives a man knowledge and understanding. This distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion is essential."

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

 

[WITBOTL]

This 'to' aspect is where having understanding of what the message of the CALL is, as well as to whom it is sent, helps in working out the issues being discussed.

Agreed. Not only the “to” aspect but we should also consider closely the scope of its message and purpose, for that will inform the debate. Are there secondary purposes or is it singular. Is the message narrow “Repent/Believe that you might have eternal life” or does it have a wider scope? (just putting forth the question, not suggesting any answer)

Some to whom this message is sent forth receive it effectually in that they are put into a state whereby the finality of the call (glorification) is assured.
This needs to be fleshed out and defined more, since depending on the how one understands the wording you can have either agreement or disagreement

fair enough. My main point here is not to look at the mechanics but only suggest that we can agree that some receive the message and believe with glorification as an assured end. To those the call is “effectual” Not trying to go beyond that much at this point. By effectual I simply mean it was effective (or effected) and lets say successful (although I think we should look at whether it can be ineffectual and unsuccessful too because we might find some debate there.)

Some to whom this message is sent forth do not receive it effectually.

by this I simply mean some to whom the message is sent forth believe unto glorification (if you will) not trying to define the mechanics yet.

The difference in those who receive it effectually and those who do not is the new birth.

I don’t think we have to disagree yet... all I mean is that it is only effectual in those who believe (by definition) and what makes it effectual is up for discussion. The end result I think we both can agree is the new birth (whether faith is the fruit of the new birth/regeneration or whether faith causes the new birth) In other words we can agree that from the point of the new birth on we have no dispute and leading up to it we have general agreement.

I think our dispute comes in how (more so than when) the promise of the call becomes a present reality and most specifically whether faith is the fruit of a regenerate heart fully from a divine source and grace itself or is it the germinating seed from a human source which God then uses to renovate the heart thereby enabling grace to work?

Secondly, the new birth is a divider so to speak between those to whom the call goes. Ultimately, is there “an elect” to whom the Holy Spirit deals inwardly, personally and differently than the rest? This raises a question as to whether there is equality in the outward and universal aspects of the call as well. The word is to be sent out to all men, but have all men heard? The Holy Spirit works as men spread the gospel, but does he work equally towards all men? Does the answer to this challenge your theology?

If this is the condition, then a complete disagreement is set forth here.
Reformed views on regeneration states when a man is regenerated he:
(1) given a new nature AND
(2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though admittedly some hold to this and others do not) AND
(3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND
(4) they are now IN Christ.

Ergo, with all the above man can now believe.

Maybe getting ahead of ourselves but my understanding of the effectual call is that in the day of his power the Holy Spirit works effectually (um... causatively secures the effect?) in that man, renovating his heart through the quickening (making alive) of the spirit giving him a new nature, repentance and faith, making him willing. I don’t believe these aspects are temporally separated so I don’t believe quickening happens before faith in time but that repentance and faith are given in regeneration. This effectual call is the call in which the Holy Spirit causes a man to accept Christ through faith whereby he is justified, reconciled and sanctified. The call of the Holy Spirit, the regenerating work, the imparting of repentance and faith, the willing acceptance through that faith I believe are simultaneous events in time but have a logical understanding which starts in the work of the Holy Spirit and ends in the response of man.

I agree that ultimately we are talking about the mechanics of regeneration. I wonder if we got in to it if we would find agreement as far as understanding that faith does not exist apart from the new birth in either direction.

However, I think the “go slow” approach has so far been useful for more than just the disputes we have and perhaps we should work our way to these points of dispute through some of the earlier areas involved, because I think it will inform the debate as well and give us some things in which we can all glory.

I think

What is the the ‘Call’ and to WHOM is it made

is where we should go first.

If the message of the Call is the same to both groups, then promise of the call is ALSO offered to both groups.

In how we interpret the implications of this statement comes much of the misunderstanding and rancor that shows up in these threads. We should go here, but carefully and with understanding.

But that is part of the point here.. if the message of the Call is the same to all, then the promise of the Call is toward both groups if they will believe just as the condemnation toward both groups would apply if they reject it.

let’s consider the message, the promise, the recipients, God’s working in this, and the response.

It is both in one. The word 'call' itself is used over and over in scripture and though it is an invitation it is also understood so as to elicit an action due to the message itself. So for me, we cannot do so biblically in removing the invitation aspect from the command any more than we can remove two legitimate options offered in the 'call/command/summons/invitation to whom the message goes out to.

Agreed. However, much disagreement comes from how we understand legitimacy in the face of “unfairness”, inability, responsibility and how far grace reaches and how active is it.

The Hell option is just as real for the elect in the calling as Heaven is and vise-versa for the non-elect. The fact they are legitimate options for obedience and disobedience does not negate the fact they will go where they are appointed to.

Believe it or not I can agree with this statement, but it is in the details where we might disagree. There is in all of this a divine aspect and a human one and they should sometimes be rightly considered separately and differently. Of course, we are not in a neutral position presented with an option of heaven or hell. We are in a condemned position and are not provided an option by the gospel message, but a saviour. By making no choice we continue condemned. That is not to say that men don’t reject the gospel, they do, but in so doing they continue in the state they were already in. This is not an insignificant point.

So what is the message of the call what are its intended recipients and why? Are there distinctions and differences in the answer to why and the recipients? Are there distinctions in the aspects of the message? Also, how does the message go out? When is it understood to have been sent, when is it understood to have been received?

Some suggestions:
recipients: elect/non elect, Jews/Gentiles
Message: Repent/Believe (responsibilities of the message), Redeemer, Saviour, High Priest, friend (who of the message)
what about Lord and King and kingdom - how important is that to the message (proclamation as well as invitation)?
Eternal Life/Lake of Fire (outcomes)
Legal aspects, relational aspects.
Human aspects to the call: evangelists/preachers, witnesses, proclamation
Divine Aspects: The Word and its operation, the Holy Spirit and his operation

Outward aspects, inward aspects.

What about responsibility and ability?

Sorry for the many questions, but it seems like this “call thing” while possible to be expressed simply has many aspects.

We can get much from this, especially if we can look at it and even disagree without accusation.

Great to have this conversation with you Allen, I hope you don’t mind approaching this in such a broad and kind of round about way, but I have appreciated much from this thread and Icon has expanded this in a way that is instructive and fun.

 

[WITBOTL]

Elder Michael Gowens:

"The gospel call is an external appeal to the mind (Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. l 1:2; 2 Cor. 4:4). Luke says that Paul "reasoned with them out of the scriptures, opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:2-3). Do you see the element of logic, the rational dimension of the gospel, in those words? Read any sermon in Acts (Acts 2, 17, 26) and note the appeal to the mind. Why was Agrippa "almost persuaded to become a Christian" (Acts 26:28)? Because the sheer weight of Paul's testimony was so persuasive and compelling. Now this is not to say that the Gospel is strictly an appeal to man's natural intellect, but the fact that the gospel call is by its very nature rational (that is, it is a verbal communication which must be processed through the mind before it has an impact on the emotions) is unavoidable.

The effectual call, on the contrary, is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul. The effectual call is a call, in Augustine's words, by "Divine Imperative." It is an act of creation in exactly the same way that the origin of the universe was an act of creation. How did God create the universe? By the sheer power of His command, His creative fiat: "And God said, Let there be..." and there was. "Let there be" is a command, an imperative. In the beginning, "God commanded the light to shine out of darkness." It was a command, a fiat. By the mere utterance of His voice, galaxies, solar systems, planets, oceans, mountains, trees, rocks, air, atoms, and molecules were called into existence out of nothing. What awesome power!....."

".....The effectual call is a call to eternal salvation; the gospel call is a call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). The effectual call is a call to sonship; the gospel call is a call to discipleship. God speaks directly in the effectual call; God speaks through men in the gospel call. The effectual call is always obeyed; the gospel call is frequently disobeyed, shunned, and resisted. The effectual call is a creation; the gospel call is a communication. The effectual call is directed to the dead; the gospel call is directed to the living. The effectual call is an internal call; the gospel call is an external appeal. The effectual call produces life (2 Tim. 1:9); the gospel call produces light (2 Tim. 1:10). The sinner responds involuntarily in the effectual call (like Lazarus). The gospel call, however, calls for a voluntary, decisive response ("...harden not your hearts" - Heb. 3:15). The conclusive testimony of Scripture is that the effectual call precedes the gospel call and that the effectual call gives a man spiritual life, while the gospel call gives a man knowledge and understanding. This distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion is essential."

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

some great comparison/contrasting of the two!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[WITBOTL]

Here are a few quotes from a sermon on the saving of Zaccheus





[QUOTE3. Thirdly, it is a hastening call. “Zaccheus, make haste.” The sinner, when he is called by the ordinary ministry,
replies, “Tomorrow.” He hears a telling sermon and he says, “I will turn to God by-and-by.” The tears roll down his
cheek but they are wiped away. Some goodness appears but like the cloud of the morning it is dissipated by the sun of
temptation. He says, “I solemnly vow from this time to be a reformed man. After I have once more indulged in my
darling sin I will renounce my lusts and decide for God.” Ah, that is only a minister’s call and is good for nothing. Hell,
they say, is paved with good intentions. These good intentions are begotten by general calls.
The road to perdition is laid all over with branches of the trees whereon men are sitting, for they often pull down
branches from the trees but they do not come down themselves. The straw laid down before a sick man’s door causes the
wheels to roll more noiselessly. So there are some who strew their path with promises of repentance and so go more easily
and noiselessly down to perdition. But God’s call is not a call for tomorrow. “Today if you will hear His voice, harden
not your hearts: as in the provocation, when your fathers tempted Me.” God’s grace always comes with dispatch—and if
I of TULIP Effectual Calling (Irresistible Grace)
Volume 2 www.spurgeongems.org
3
3
you are drawn by God, you will run after God and not be talking about delays. Tomorrow—it is not written in the
almanac of time.
Tomorrow—it is in Satan’s calendar and nowhere else. Tomorrow—it is a rock whitened by the bones of mariners
who have been wrecked upon it. Tomorrow is the wrecker’s light gleaming on the shore, luring poor ships to
destruction. Tomorrow—it is the idiot’s cup which he lies at the foot of the rainbow, but which none has ever found.
Tomorrow—it is the floating island of Loch Lomond, which none has ever seen. Tomorrow—it is a dream.
Tomorrow—it is a delusion. Tomorrow, yes, tomorrow you may lift up your eyes in Hell, being in torment. Yonder
clock says “today.” Your pulse whispers “today.” I hear my heart speak as it beats and it says, “today.” Everything cries
“today.” And the Holy Spirit is in union with these things and says, “Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your
hearts.” Sinners, are you inclined now to seek the Savior? Are you breathing a prayer now? Are you saying, “Now or
never! I must be saved now”? If you are, then I hope it is an effectual call, for Christ, when He gives an effectual call, says,
“Zaccheus, make haste.”
4. Next, it is a humbling call]

This is a good read:
http://www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-4.pdf[/QUOTE]

great! Spurgeon had a compelling eloquence!

when he says "hastening call" did he mean "quickening call" :laugh::laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

.One call...or two

Do you see the two calls in this?:

15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1

 

[Allan]

Do you see the two calls in this?:

15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1

Neither in Arminian, Non-Cal, Cal, nor the Reformed view, do we find regeneration is 'the eternal salvation' which you propose. There is no eternal salvation a part from faith.

The gospel call isn't to 'the eternally saved' to be discipled. It is to lost whom God will eternally save.

 

[kyredneck]

...There is no eternal salvation a part from faith....

What you really mean here Allan is that there is no salvation apart from man's will. You say 'faith', but what you really mean is man's choice, man's free will.

Never mind passages such as 'who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' Jn 1:13

Eternal salvation denotes that which man is absolutely totally passive in.

 

[Iconoclast]

The inward effectual call is irresitable in that it is not ultimately resisted.
As the Spirit of God begins to draw the sinner in....he might resist the initial convicting work by self righteousness and a religious veneer,
God's work is effectual at all times...because He has ordained to build His church.
The call is not random ,or left to the unscriptural idea of chance.Just like the building of the tabernacle was not random:

8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

God was in type showing part of His eternal design to restore Sacred Space that was lost in the fall.

As priests were to minister in the tabernacle, even so now the believers are called to holy service by God now. His kingdom is expanding worldwide.
Jn3:16. he is placing the living stones in his Holy temple now-

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[psalms109:31]

The grace of God is all around us. It is in the trees that gives us oxygen materials to make a shelter. Grace is in the rain that waters the trees. I can go on. Grace is in His Son on the cross, which without the knowledge in it that comes from God and His words about Jesus and the words of Jesus the scriptures tells of His coming and without that you know nothing of it. It doesn't take way the fact it is already done and there for you, this grace. It is first faith( which is made up of knowledge from God not man, then trust and belief in His son that comes from us), then you have the grace that is already there, then deeds.

Faith without deeds can such a faith save you and what is faith without the knowledge that came down from heaven through His Son? To look forward to the one who will crush the serpents head or to look back at the one who did. The work of the devil from the beginning has been crushed believe in the one who crushed it and you will be saved. You don't believe in I you believe and trust in Him. Only men condemn men for trusting in His Son making it a work from man.


"My fear is lest the reader should rest content with understanding what is to be done, and yet never do it. Better the poorest real faith actually at work, than the best ideal of it left in the region of speculation. The great matter is to believe on the Lord Jesus at once. Never mind distinctions and definitions. A hungry man eats though he does not understand the composition of his food, the anatomy of his mouth, or the process of digestion: he lives because he eats. Another far more clever person understands thoroughly the science of nutrition; but if he does not eat he will die, with all his knowledge. There are, no doubt, many at this hour in Hell who understood the doctrine of faith, but did not believe. On the other hand, not one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus has ever been cast out, though he may never have been able intelligently to define his faith. Oh dear reader, receive the Lord Jesus into your soul, and you shall live forever! "He that believeth in Him hath everlasting life.""

C. H. Spurgeon

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.