Originally posted by OldRegular:
This was posted on another thread but it seems to be appropriate on this one.
From reading all of ituttut's posts one would think that there were only 3 Apostles, Peter, John, and Paul. I would remind him that there were 9 additional Apostles and that some of these traveled as far as India preaching to Gentiles.
Please put a date on Apostles traveling to India.
It is certain that Paul did not establish the Church at Rome. Who did? Did it not include Gentiles? Paul's letter to the Church at Rome would certainly indicate that it did. It wasn't Peter or John who established the Church at Rome since they were in Jerusalem.
Does scripture tell you Paul didn’t establish the church in Rome? Can you show me? I can show you scripture that says he did. It could not have been any other gospel than Paul’s that started the Christian church in Rome. You either completely ignore what I keep pointing out to you, or you just plain will not believe Christ Jesus spoke to Paul from heaven, and gave this New Apostle the New gospel to the Gentile, and Peter says NOW the circumcised can be saved in the same manner as is the heathen.
There is also one significant passage of Scripture in Paul's letter to the Church at Rome that dispensationalists have apparently never read since they continuously insist that God revealed some deep mystery to Paul that none of His people had heard before,
Perhaps you have never talked to one that holds to the dispensational gospel of Paul before. You may have been talking to one that has the appearance of a dispensationalist.
I notice you have no idea of how, or who established the Christian church in Rome. I know, for the Bible tells us so. This will be a good study for you. I’m sure there must be others here that can prove Paul’s gospel established the Christian church in Rome. Search and you will find. There is other proof than this, but you know the Roman Empire extended into Judah, and Israel, and remember the missionary journeys of Paul.
Paul had many converts that returned to Rome, or made their first venture there. Two of these are named in Acts. Just think of how many more carried the gospel of Paul not only to Rome, but other places to the West.
Romans 1:1-7; 13; 16, 17
1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4. And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6. Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
13. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Pretty telling I would say. As we read Romans we can know Paul had communicated previously with Roman believers. He evidently informed them that hopefully he planned to visit Rome. But a considerable time had passed, possibly several years. He doesn’t want them to be ignorant of this fact, but he had been hindered.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
From verse 2 we see that the Gospel of God, or the Gospel of Jesus Christ if you prefer, [this mystery that had supposedly been revealed only to Paul?] had been promised by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures [the Old Testament]. Yet dispensationalists insist that the Old Testament knows nothing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Church even though Paul himself states that the Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Your Old Testament reads differently than mine. Where is the name of Jesus Christ found in the Old Testament?
Also note that in verse 13 we see that there were indeed Gentiles in the Church at Rome and these Gentiles had not heard the preaching of the Gospel supposedly revealed only to Paul.
These saved are of Paul, as they are Christians, and this is only possible to be so by believing the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven. They are there, and Paul wishes to also be there with them.
Finally in verse 16 the apostle Paul defines the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.
Is this not that New gospel. I notice you don’t say that “believeth”, and now you must “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”.
Strangely in verse 17 the Apostle returns to the Old Testament to help define this Gospel stating The just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4
Faith to faith, by to through. How else can we live that faith other than By faith in God that comes Through the faith of Jesus Christ, and through the blood of the Cross we come. We died on that Cross with our Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we are today considered “sinless” in the eyes of God. If we are in the Body of Christ we doubtless have been made righteous. Only the righteous can be in the Body of Christ. Yet in these sinful bodies (that’s the reason we are to die, is to get rid of the sin in these bodies) we sin for we are of this sinful world. But our spirit is spotless, and someday so will our New bodies becoming one with our New Spirit.
Dispensationalists such as ituttut tell us that the true Gospel was supposedly revealed only to Paul, meaning:
You know this is not what I teach. Please read your Bible and also what I have written to you. If you answer, please tell me what you believe Paul is saying to YOU. To whom did Christ Jesus reveal His heavenly to First? Ephesians 2:2-3, ”If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery.” After absorbing this, try verse 4, ”Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ).”
We must absorb as we move along. Verses 5-9, ”Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”
Can’t you see OldRegular, it is not me you are putting down, but the one Christ chose to spread His heavenly gospel to all in this hidden dispensation.
1. That all the other Apostles were preaching a false Gospel until Paul came along.
2. That Jesus Christ taught a false Gospel to his Apostles and followers.
You know I have never taught such a thing, for I believe Christ Jesus on earth, and I believe Him in heaven. You evidently have only gotten far enough to know the gospel of John the Baptist, and the “great commission”.
3. Since Paul apparently talked only to Peter and John how the remaining nine received the correct Gospel must remain a mystery.
Why do you not tell the truth of what I say, and imply?
The doctrine of these dispensationalists is seriously flawed and the implications of what these dispensationalists teach is very dangerous.
