One Nation Under God

Marcia, (and whoever made the other post trying to discredit these men.)

Franklin did not become a Christian until very late in his life. At times when he spoke of his faith in Christ he often referred back to the foolishness of his youth and his days of rejecting God.

The comments about Mason being the source of the Washington rumors is inaccurate. Washington was very close to Mason. In fact, Mason, an elder in the Presbyterian faith, hoped that Washington would become a minister. However, Mason did not write the diaries. The text I used was not the Mason text. Mason was dead in 1919.

I find it fascinating that so many people work so hard to try to prove a lie, and to paint a picture of faithlessness about the founding father's of America.

What good does it bring you to spread such lies?

The proof is out there in their own words, in their own writing, or in the offical records of our nation.

Since this was a "debate" on this board - it was a topic of conversation today among some people I spend the fourth with. One is a historian. They assured me that both the Washington and the Franklin quotes are accurate. Another was a retired teacher, now 73 years of age, who said, "Yes, we frequently taught both when I started out. It wasn't until about the 60's that people started making the claims these men were godless." I asked, "Where did the claims come from?" They said, "Mainly agnostics twisting history. Franklin wasn't Christian as a youth, and they point to his godless years as if they were his only years. Washington was actually studying to become a church elder before he changed to a miliary career.

You people are young, and you're re-writing history, or you're buying into the lies of those who did, and its sad.

You people always rush around screaming, "Your sources are wrong," and yet, you never stop to pray over your own sources, or to research it, really research it yourself.

There was no motive, no reason, no need, in the 1700's, 1800's, or early 1900's to lie about the faith of these men. This is all something that has come up in the last 30 years maximum. Perhaps only the last 20 years.

Yet, you rush forward to embrace lies, without ever bothering to question the source of them, or the motives of them.

You people really need to pray for discernment.

By the way: Wikipedia is the most inaccurate source of research information I ever heard of in my life. It can be edited by absolutely anyone who can pull up the website.

Studies done showed that people can alter information on its sight and have it remain up there, in error, for weeks, until the editor doing the study pulled it down theirself.

Considering how skeptical you all are about everything else in life, how is it you trust an internet web-site that lets anyone, without any question of their credentials, post information to it as if it has been researched and edited?

Learn discernment people.

 

Marcia,

Franklin, when he was 81 years old, gave an address asking that the US Congress begin their sessions with prayer. He stated that his reason for the request was the unmistakable evidence that God had helped them through the revolution.

The text of that speech is listed in the Library of Congress.

 

Marcia,

Find his quotes and read his words.

 

Jefferson was not a Christian.
Franklin became one later in life .
Go to Franklin's own autobiography.

 

Marcia,

It matters a great deal to me whether or not this is a Christian nation with Christian leaders, and it matters to me whether or not it was founded by Christian leaders or not.

I take the bible very seriously in the places it says that nations which go against God are destroyed.

You and I disagree on quite a bit though.

I gather you either couldn't find the Franklin quotes or didn't bother to try.

Despite the recent references to Franklin and the Hell-Clubs (I've never found real evidence of that by the way), he, like Washington, was originally meant for the profession of clergy.

Franklin totally rebelled.
He went his own way, and did a lot of sinful and wild things, but then, so did Solomon.

In the end of his life, Franklin gave his congressional speech, crediting God with saving the rebels who rebelled against England and in creating America. In that speech he makes a passionate plea for men to seek God's guideance for the new nation, each day, by beginning the congressional sessions with a prayer. He quotes Christ about three times in that speech.

But, modern, hateful, sinful man wants us to remember Franklin, Johnson, Washington, Adams, Madison, and others - not for what they DID do RIGHT, but as evil men who got a few things right.

If Satan can discredit the men of God, Satan can take away the strength of their messages in support of God.

By the way - many of the men who signed that Declaration of Indepenence were practicing clergymen in Christian, protestant churches. Many others had studied to become clergymen and sought other ways.

No one ever said that God cared more about white Americans than He did in those in Turkey, but the proof that God blesses a nation that turns to God is seen in how American prospered when it followed God, while those nations that turned their back on God suffered.

Its biblical, but its also historically obvious.

 

I'm not attacking you.
The evidence regarding Franklin is in the autobiography and, in my opinion, in the speech delivered to Congress itself. It is in his letter to his son.
I've just noticed a tendancy on the internet for young people to assume if they can't find it on Google search engines that it doesn't exist.
That is rather frightening since a tremendously large amount of internet information is wrong or missing huge chunks of data.
Since the Franklin Autobiography IS on line, as well as the speech to Congress, I find it hard to believe people did more than run a quick "Franklin/Christ" search, which would be more likely to turn up about 20 athiests sites than it would historical fact.

RSR - Among the evidence of Franklin turning to God is the speech Franklin gave when he was 81 years old. It is part of the congressional record and has been posted for all to read.

Apparently though, no one bothered to read it. Or having read it, decided to ignore it.

Either way, its out there, its been posted.

No, he does not say, "Jesus Christ," but he DOES speak of how God and God alone got this country where it was at that time, He DOES quote Christ, He DOES say that we, as a nation, need to turn to God for guideance, and it is a historical fact that it was the intention of his parents to make him a protestant Christian minister as a child.

Now, maybe I AM wrong, but seems to me that a man raised with the intent of going into the clergy (that IS in the autobiograhy), who admits, later in life, that he went astray, but who says that as he gots older he realized that God is in control, and in admitting that encourages men to follow God, while quoting Christ is most likely a man who has turned to Christ, and who urges Congress to start their sessions with prayer is not likely to be the athiest/agnostic/diest people try to paint him out to be.

Of course, I do realize that in this day and age, encouraging men to follow God, quoting Christ, giving God credit for good, and urging prayer to God means nothing in the eyes of people who want to scream, "You aren't a Christian," but even those people have to admit, it isn't the athiest, "god-mocker" that people try to make Franklin out to be.

[ July 06, 2005, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

RSR,

There is only one authentic version of Franklin's final speech or of his autobigoraphy.

At 81 years of age the man called the nation back to God. I'm sorry if that isn't "good enough" for you.

May you, in your old age, after you've changed the world for all time at the risk of life and limb, be judged as strongly and rudely by history and by men of God as you judge others.

 

The Caprinator,

Yes, in recent years it has been very popular for people to "rewrite" history. I have watched this with great sorrow over the years.

Men who knew the founding fathers of the church, men who knew the founding fathers of our nation, men who lived just generations after their deaths wrote their accounts of these great men and those were passed down for, depending on whom we speak of, hundreds of years, or decades. Then in the 1980's people started going, "Oh, that's not true!"

I keep wondering, how does someone in 1980 or 1990 or 2000 disprove the eye wittness accounts of someone back in the 1700's?

It came to me that they always do this by providing "one manuscript" that someone else wrote. Its always someone that no one ever heard about before, or someone who is a rabid enemy of the person being discussed.

They use this to trash the life of the great men who we once used as leaders to our children, and they claim they do this for the sake of our children, but in doing so, they leave our children with the feeling that no one should be used as an example, that historians cannot be trusted, that school's lie to them, that great men are really just despots.

Then they wonder why children have no respect for anyone.

No one ever said that any of the founding fathers of our nation was perfect. Not even their highest praisers of their day.

However - they were, without a doubt, better men, as patriots and in most cases, better men of God than the people who try so hard to trash their reputations.

I spent 37 years of my life being taught that Franklin and Washington were Christians. I've only seen, in the last 10 years, this contention that they are not. I ask people 70 or 80 years of age, they say all of their life, they were taught good things about these men.

Apparently, America's education now comes from the same people that provide us with "SouthPark," "The Bachelor," "Domestic Housewives," and other "quality" programming. Apparently America's youth don't go back to the sources and question for themselves.

When I started hearing that these men were not men of God, I did something that really isn't that hard to do. I started looking up who said they were, vs who said they weren't, then looking at the material they referenced. I worked my back until I landed at readable photostatic copies of Washington's diaries, and to the Library of Congress itself.

I don't, and never will, rely on the Internet for important information. Anyone, absolutely anyone, can build a website, claim it is a quality source of information, and put up total garbage. There are no editors, no proof-readers, no research teams verifying 99% of it.

Wickipedia is proof of the kind of education modern young people get. Its a pity too. When my own children tell me that their reports can come straight off the web, I march them down to the library instead.

RSR - Let me ask you something. Who is more likely to have created "great lies"? A man like Mason Weems was a Presbyterian Minister? Or a modern day agnostic trying to disprove the greatness of General Washington? It is a historical fact that Washington attended church all the time. When his step-daughter was asked what his beliefs were, she said she couldn't recall him ever mentioning Christ to her. I'm not at all surprised. That was a very different day and age, and the relationships between step-fathers and daughters was quite different. However - it doesn't change the fact that many people from Washington's time call him a Christian. Nor is there any evidence he felt otherwise. As to Washington's daughter not recalling. One of the fineset men of God I ever knew used to spend hours and hours talking to the young children in the family about how important faith in Jesus Christ was. Later, at his funeral, his daughter shared that she was stunned to hear so many people speak of her father's testimony. She said he had never talked to her about God. Her siblings quickly corrected her, saying, "He talked about it every day. You just didn't listen. You threw it out with everything else he tried to teach you in those days."

As for me. I will stand firm on the belief that men who, after having had homes destroyed, relatives turn against them, relatives and friends murdered, entire armies hunting them down with murderous intent who could look to God, and thank Him for His guideance, and call the nation to prayer to Him each morning as better men of God that 99% of modern Americans who have everything handed to them easily, without risk or danger, or in many cases even earning it, who do NOT thank God, and who bend over backwards to try to make sure none of the rest of the nation does either.

 

One other thing to those of you who want to keep God out of the government.

Can you show me any nation in the bible which did NOT suffer after they threw God out of the ruling house?