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One thing a Calvinist has never done.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
answser me this one thing, If,as the reformed believe that all the elect have been predestined to salvation before the world even began, then WHY would they EVER have to "seek the Lord"? They ARE saved already!!! There is NO reason for them to even hear the Gospel, or even believe, because this changes NOTHING, as they have been saved from eternity past! Such is the FOLLY of this teaching of "election" as pushed by reformed/calvinists, and has NOTHING to do with the Holy Bible!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Just for the record, Calvinists do not affirm those "unavoidable ends" that might logically follow, but which Scripture declares false. Therein lies the difference of opinion on whether our beliefs have been correctly stated.
Do Catholics worship Mary? It might be an "unavoidable end" that is "logically suggested" by their actions, but Catholics affirm that their "veneration" is not "worship". Do Catholics not have the right to define their beliefs and Calvinists the right to define our beliefs?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Since nobody even wants to attempt to justify any of the actual "facts" presented in the statement, it would seem to be a "LESS ACCURATE STATEMENT" rather than "more".
I was merely curious if you had anything to back up your bold claim. You do not.
Calvinism is not a Mystery Religion, so everything you wrote is built on sand.
- [Joel 2:32 NIV] 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
- [Acts 2:21 NIV] 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
- [Acts 15:11 NIV] 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
- [2 Thessalonians 2:13 NIV] 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Calvinism = Jesus saves (not 'men save').
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I'll answer, if you can tell me:
- "Why does one person hear the gospel and believe while another person hears the same words and does not believe?"
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
In John 3, Jesus tells us a man must be born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven.
First: Being able to see the Kingdom of Heaven is referring to obtaining a right relationship with God: i. e. salvation.
Second: To be “born again” is a work of God Holy Spirit: A supernatural event.
When John says, “The wind blows where it wills.... so is everyone born of the Spirit”, he is telling us God determines who will be saved.
Let’s start there.
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Read 2 thess. 2:10-12 prayfully
I see you argue that men are born sinners and provide scripture that does not support it and then stand back and claim nothing. Well you are right they have nothing to do with born sinners.
MB
I presented an argument, above, you are not interested in hearing anything you don't already think, so, it is lost on you.
Others can and will appreciate it.
You say that because you are preconditioned like a Pavlovian dog to say it.
You suffer from nothing akin to curiosity. You would have claimed there was nothing to back it up no matter what I said. And the claim, as originally stated, wasn't even particularly "bold" at all. It was rather mild.
Of course it isn't. The way it is being espoused that I responded to specifically, however, shares the similarity that I am condemning.
All the above is irrelevant.
That is basic Christianity in all forms whatsoever, and thus irrelevant.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[2Th 2:5-12 NKJV]
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Would you care to explain the paragraph and answer my question, or would you like me to respond in kind by offering a few verses for you to "read prayerfully"?
My question and its answer is central to understanding the answer to your question. I asked it to avoid talking past one another.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You seem to have forgotten what you stated that I requested support for. As a reminder ...
You claimed Calvinism was esoteric, which it is not and nothing in your “support” suggests otherwise.
You claimed that less than 2% of the World population can understand it, which is probably not true and nothing in your “support” suggests otherwise.
You claimed that less than 2% of the World population can articulate it, which is probably not true and nothing in your “support” suggests otherwise.
You claimed that Calvinism is not Biblical, which is not true and nothing in your “support” suggests otherwise.
You claimed that Calvinism is a Demonic faith, which is not true and nothing in your “support” suggests otherwise.
So all of your “speechifying” about Pavlovian conditioning, and obvious and irrelevant ... falls into the category of smoke and mirrors to avoid the fact that you parade unsupported false opinions as facts.
My friend, you have missed the entire point completely, I'm afraid. The post was a response to the continuous pretense that non-Calvinists don't understand or articulate Calvinism properly
Let me quote the initial post I made:
"Everyone knows what Calvinists believe, it isn't that esoteric...
Any faith so esoteric that 98.888% of the World's population can't understand or articulate it....
isn't a Bible faith, it's a demonic one."
We do understand it.
That was the point.
But, since you mention it...
Of course, it is unbiblical in the extreme, and obviously so.
Calvinism is not, in fact, a Mystery religion, therefore it is perfectly clear to the uninitiated.
And yet, when Calvinists don't like when people critique their faith, they pretend as though it is mysterious and incomprehensible to the uninitiated, that was my point.
I am quite sure that basically everyone else got that, especially the non-Calvinists who would grasp the point I was making perfectly.
Let me quote the initial post I made:
"Everyone knows what Calvinists believe, it isn't that esoteric...
Any faith so esoteric that 98.888% of the World's population can't understand or articulate it....
isn't a Bible faith, it's a demonic one."
Nope, it was being presented as mysterious and esoteric. It is simple enough and we all understand it just fine.
No, it isn't, hence......non-Calvinists do, in fact understand it perfectly and can articulate it.
Right, because it isn't mysterious and esoteric.....therefore, Calvinists need to stop pretending that they alone articulate it correctly.
Nope, Calvinists act as though less than 2% of the World population understands it....i.e. every non-Calvinists who is perpetually accused of not understanding your position.
We do understand it.
That was the point.
Correct, because plenty of people understand it....including all the non-Calvinists who it seems never seem to have reached the enlightenment necessary to grasp this mysterious faith.
The point is, we CAN articulate it.
I made no such claim.
But, since you mention it...
Of course, it is unbiblical in the extreme, and obviously so.
Nope, Mystery Religions are demonic.
Calvinism is not, in fact, a Mystery religion, therefore it is perfectly clear to the uninitiated.
And yet, when Calvinists don't like when people critique their faith, they pretend as though it is mysterious and incomprehensible to the uninitiated, that was my point.
I am quite sure that basically everyone else got that, especially the non-Calvinists who would grasp the point I was making perfectly.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
That is what that verse tells me as well, George...
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
But based on Romans 3:10-18, no one calls upon Him, and no one seeks Him.
How then shall anyone call upon the Lord?
Answer:
"Ye must be born again."
But it does indeed say, quite clearly, "are saved" in 1 Corinthians 1:18:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
Again, people call upon the Lord because they are saved, just as the preaching of the cross is the power of God to us which are saved.
Respectfully, anytime a man agrees with the words on the page, it's not heresy, George.
It's sound doctrine.
Therefore, according to the Scriptures, people were saved ( Romans 9:23, Ephesians 1:4-6, Ephesians 2:10 ), are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:9 ) and shall be saved ( Joel 2:32, Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Romans 10:13 ).
I also found something significant ( and co-incidentally, so did @atpollard ) while I was looking for passages that tells us the same thing as Romans 10:13:
" And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." ( Joel 2:32 ).
A remnant, called by God, which reminds me of Romans 9:22-24 and several others, like Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Thank you for your reply, sir, and I bid you a good evening.
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Quite the opposite we get blamed for going easy even on Muslims, Buddhists and Atheist.
See since God is the highest authority you are required to follow your good conscience even/especially in religious matters.
That is a direct line to God.
So even you who is against my church would be considered honorable for following your sense of right and wrong, your good conscience.
I can call everyone on this board a brother and sister in Jesus, I can't even assume evil intentions when I hear a teaching that is a mistake. A rare luxury for me to hear from someone else, but I understand its a righteous admonishment for my actions, which is kind of funny since our first point of contention IRONICLY is we insist our actions (works) matter.
That is your dilemma. Its not contradictory for us Because Paul is not establishing nor has authority to write new doctrine, He is just quoting psalms where Jews failed in the past. IF Paul wanted to establish a BRAND NEW TEACHING that no one seeks God applies universally he would have to go through rigmarole of holding council as they did for not requiring Jewish law/circumcision.
Even the Jews themselves don't apply the idea of total inability to themselves or those under that admonishment.
The lack of common sense and logic is so astounding that it even stretches' to God himself not having common sense.
God is wrongfully portrayed as having same sense as the guy who burned his new car because he didn't put gas in it.
Lets put on your glasses and read the same exact verse.....
“I CAN ONLY BE FOUND BY THOSE WHO DO NOT SEEK ME,
I WILL ONLY MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DO NOT ASK FOR ME.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
There is absolutely nothing in this passage, or anywhere else in the Bible, that says that, "God determines who will be saved", because He has determined that He is willing that NONE should perish! Next...
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You said, ""Why does one person hear the gospel and believe while another person hears the same words and does not believe?"
The passage in 2 Thess tells you why. "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved". Sinners do not "receive" (which means FREE WILL) the love of the Truth of the Gospel Message, "in order that (as the Greek says) they might be saved". These same people, we are told, "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.".Here they refuse to "believe" in the Gospel Message that they hear. and, it is because of their rejection/refusal, of their own FREE WILL, that, "God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned". This is exactly what we read in Acts 13:46, "But speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, It was necessary for the Word of God to be spoken first to you; but since you indeed thrust it away and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the nations". Note here, that Paul and Barnabas tried to preach the Good News of salvation to these Jews, as Commanded by the Lord. However, these Jews, "thrust it away", that is, "rejected the Gospel Message", and by doing so, "considered themselves unworthy of eternal life". These Jews themselves rejected the Gospel, it was not that God had rejected them! In chapter 28 of Acts, Paul says this, "and they closed their eyes lest at any time they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them" (verse 27). THEY did this themselves!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Remember. I’m not trying to change your mind. I want you to understand why I believe what I do.
Let’s look again. Instead of just denying my interpretation, perhaps you can address this passage and tell me why I’m wrong.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wills. You hear the sound of it but do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
The context is salvation: being “born again”. John is making a play on words with wind and Spirit. They are the same word in the Greek.
He is saying just like the wind blows according to its own “will”; it cannot be controlled or manipulated; in that way so is everyone who is born of the Spirit of God. God Holy Spirit moves according to His will in making men “born again”. He cannot be controlled or manipulated.
It is a supernatural event that elaborates his statement in John 1 that the children of God are born by the will of God.
Do you understand why I interpret the passage the way I do?
peace to you
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