Oneness pentecostalism, Christian or Cult

That's not the whole verse. It's "being not baptized of him [John the Baptist]". The rejected his message of repentance, which the baptism represented. Just as now, Baptism had no saving power in itself.

Baptism as a work of God is "by one spirit into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13), meaning that we are "immersed" into the body of Christ. This is the baptism that "doth now save" (1 Pet.3:21). The water ceremony was to accompany it; but over time, as the Church developed into a series of conflicting organizations, it became no longer feasible to baptize someone immediately on conversion. You can see this, (and its unofficial replacement, the altar call), discussed at http://members.aol.com/etb700/baptism.html.

As for another of those essentials; even though Oneness (modalism) on the surface accepts the deity of Christ, still, I notice that when you press them on how Christ can pray to the Father, sit at His right hand, and whether the Father died on the Cross (patripassianism); they will often start to separate the two natures of Christ into practically two separate entities: a divine Christ that unites to a purely human Jesus. This then does compromise the true deity of Christ, and becomes nearly identical to progressive monarchianism (the theology of the Way Int. or Christadelphians)

 

Then why MEE, back on page three, where this question was posted, did you avoid an honest answer?

If you had admitted to this two pages ago, we would have saved ourselves a lot of bandwith.
DHK

 

How many ways do I have to say yes? You must not read, but skim over posts. ***sigh***

Now, are you finished with MEE? If so, go on to your next victim and give me a rest.

MEE

 

How do you reach such a conclusion? Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians. </font>[/QUOTE]That is entirely the point. Baptism is not required for salvation, and never was.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (not baptized)
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (not whosoever shall be baptized)

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--(Whosoever believes; not is baptized)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

Salvation is by the grace of God, and through faith in that grace--the grace that Christ suffered and died and shed his blood for our sins on the cross of Calvary. It was all the grace of our Lord and Saviour. We accept it by faith, not by baptism.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, you keep accusing MEE of refusing to answer your questions and then you turn around and give me a non-answer. I ddn't ask you to give support for your beliefs about baptism!

You said that Paul's phrase "not of works" in Ephesians means "not of baptism". I quite reasonably questioned you about this since Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians!

Again, I DON'T want you to explain your beliefs about baptism. I DO want you to explain your exegesis of this scripture. Why do you think it is proper or even necessary to interpret "works" as "baptism"? What is there about the context that tells you that baptism is what Paul is really referring to?

You do an excellent job of quoting scriptures to support your position. You state your beliefs quite clearly. Can you do as good a job answering my question?

Never

 

Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Eph.2:8,9 because he doesn't have to. My question to MEE was: "Is baptism essential to salvation?"

Eph.2:8,9 is one of the most concisely worded passages that clearly explains what salvation is. It tells us that it is by grace (it all of the grace of God--nothing that man could ever do);
Then it says "through faith." Through faith we accept what Christ accomplished on the cross in his grace.
"And that not of yourselves" There is absolutely nothing that we can do to merit salvation--including being baptized.
"It is the gift of God" Salvation is a gift; it cannot be earned, merited, worked for, in any way. That also eliminates baptism. Salvation is the free gift of God. All you have to do is to receive it by faith.
"Not of works" Baptism is a work. It is a work of man, though it be a commandment of God. It is like prayer. We are commmanded to do it. God doesn't do it. We do. It is a work that we engage in after we are saved. Baptism is the first command or work of the Christian life that a Christian ought to obey. It is not part of salvation; it comes after salvation. Thus salvation is not of works. All throughout this passage it emphasizes that salvation is not of works, not of yourself, but all of the grace of God. It is one of the most powerful verses to use against those who believe that baptism is essential to salvation. That is why I quoted it, and the other verses. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, And God does not lie.
DHK

 

Thank you, DHK. to be sure I understand you, let me restate it and you correct me if I misunderstood.

Because baptism is a work, like prayer or giving to the needy, it is included (along with many other things) in the word "works". Thus Paul is saying that salvation is a gift, not earned by baptism, prayer, giving, etc.

If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, then thus far we agree.

Now if you don't mind, I have another question (or two)for you.

Is repentance a work? it seems to fit your definition, since it is something man does. Just like baptism, repentance does not earn salvation for us.

So, using the same logic for repentance that you used for baptism, couldn't we say that repentance is not essential for salvation? Would you agree that repentance is not essential to salvation?


Never

 

The problem is that cults change or redefine the meaning of words. When Oneness people say Jesus is God in the flesh, they mean God the Father.

Jesus is NOT God the Father in the flesh.

And, yes, Oneness is a cult because they depart from historic Christian beliefs in a BIG way.

 

From the UPC website (I can't post the link, I don't hink).

They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

This link to a Christian site gives info on Oneness beliefs:
http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

 

Hi Nevertheless. I am glad to answer your questions any time.

That is correct.

Repentance is definitely essential salvation. Jesus said: "Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish."
Also:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Hoever the simple command to be saved is still:
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," (Acts 16:31)

Believe is an action word. It includes repentance. I repent when I believe. Believe is not simply just an itellectual assertion, such as, I believe in "Sidney Crosby," that he will make a good hockey player. One needs more than just an intellectual assertion to be saved. In one's belief there is repentance included.

Consider what James says:
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
--The devils (or demons) obviously are not going to heaven. There is no repentance in their belief. This is the difference in our belief (when we come to Christ) and their belief. Thus repentance is not a work.
I hope that helps.
DHK

 

They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

</font>[/QUOTE]You are correct Marcia, Oneness Pentecostals don't baptize in titles, which is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The *name* of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why you won't find, in the scriptures, where baptism was practiced using titles.

The practice of using titles was introduced by the Catholic Church. This was to enforce the belief the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not scriptural!

Matt. 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38)...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvtion in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16) For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48) And he commanded them to baptized in the name of the Lord.

**In the next verse, even John's baptism wasn't good enough under Grace.

Acts 19:4-5
4)Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Of course Marcia, everyone knows that you all don't believe in water baptism, as a must, but Oneness Pentecostals take the Bible for what it says.

Now, can anyone say that I didn't stay with the Bible? If anyone chooses to remain with the doctrine provided by the CC, the choice is yours.

MEE

 

They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

</font>[/QUOTE]You are correct Marcia, Oneness Pentecostals don't baptize in titles, which is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The *name* of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why you won't find, in the scriptures, where baptism was practiced using titles.

The practice of using titles was introduced by the Catholic Church. This was to enforce the belief the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not scriptural!

Matt. 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38)...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvtion in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16) For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48) And he commanded them to baptized in the name of the Lord.

**In the next verse, even John's baptism wasn't good enough under Grace.

Acts 19:4-5
4)Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Of course Marcia, everyone knows that you all don't believe in water baptism, as a must, but Oneness Pentecostals take the Bible for what it says.

Now, can anyone say that I didn't stay with the Bible? If anyone chooses to remain with the doctrine provided by the CC, the choice is yours.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Mee, are you saying that because I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that I was incorrectly baptized, and therefore not saved?

That is what the Oneness pastor here says.

He claims that they are the true church and no one else is going to heaven.

He that local pastor also says, that if I do not speak in tongues I am not saved.

Please explain to me why he would say all of that.

Thanks

God Bless

 

RP, I think that the scriptures that I posted speak for themselves, as far as water baptism goes.

As far as what this pastor says, I don't believe any one organization/church are the only ones going to heaven.

I do believe that what a person calls themselves isn't important. Although, I do believe that one must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

If someone has truly believed, according to scripture, it dosen't matter if they are Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or whatever...they will be saved.

MEE

 

RP, I think that the scriptures that I posted speak for themselves, as far as water baptism goes.

As far as what this pastor says, I don't believe any one organization/church are the only ones going to heaven.

I do believe that what a person calls themselves isn't important. Although, I do believe that one must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

If someone has truly believed, according to scripture, it dosen't matter if they are Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or whatever...they will be saved.

MEE [/QB][/QUOTE]

I've repented, I've accepted Jesus, when I was saved the Holy Spirit moved in and took up residence... then later I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Tell me by your beliefs am I saved?

 

RP, according to what I understand, you are at the repented stage....and probably a wonderful person that God loves very much.

MEE

 

Okay, everyone, here is a great example of Oneness beliefs -- Jesus is all 3 persons, Father, Son, and HS in their belief.

"Name" is singular because it is one God, but God is 3 Persons, as clearly shown in scripture. Have several links I can post to show that if anyone wants them posted.

We certainly can say that having to be baptized for salvation is not according to the Bible. Every verse Oneness and baptismal regeneration supporters use has been refuted by scripture. See:
http://aomin.org/bapreg.html
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/OCC13.htm

I have more as well.

 

The problem is that cults change or redefine the meaning of words. When Oneness people say Jesus is God in the flesh, they mean God the Father.

Jesus is NOT God the Father in the flesh.

And, yes, Oneness is a cult because they depart from historic Christian beliefs in a BIG way. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe that if a person that is saved by the Blood of Jesus who has forsaken sin and confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is the Christ is not saved because they were baptized in the "Name Of Jesus"? Therewill always be disagreements in the Body of Christ until we come into the unity of the Faith when Jesus takes up His bride But , How dare we call a Born again believer that is Born of the Spirit of God a Cult!
( I am not talking about Mormons or Buddhist but those who came through the Blood of JEsus)

 

The central issue is who is Jesus. The Oneness Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, and so I can, with all confidence, say that Oneness beliefs are cultic. This has been a position of the Christian Church since this belief was condemned in the 3rd century. It was called Sabellianism then.

 

Come on Marcia,
Do you really believe that Oneness people have another Jesus??
It seems that there is an argument that pops up when someone disagrees with some people that whoever they disagree with has another Jesus.
i have been saved by grace and bapized in the name of the fATHER, SON , AND Holy Ghost.
I cannot say to oneness peoplet that I have a different Jesus thatn they do.
By the way do you believe that the Methodist that is sprinkled came through another Jesus?

 

Do you really think I would post all that and not really mean it? It's not whether I believe it or not, it's what the Bible teaches. The Bible clearly teaches the Trinity. The Oneness Jesus has no Father because the OJ (Oneness Jesus) is the Father. Or maybe he's the flesh of the Father (in some views). So when Jesus prays to the Father, which is all over the Gospels, he's really talking to himself. And when he says, "My Father," he's talking about himself. That is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Before you criticize me again for taking this position, why don't you read a few of these articles?
http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessquestionresponse.htm

http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/{CDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446}/BB_PENTECOSTALS.pdf

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm