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Oneness pentecostalism, Christian or Cult

Is Oneness Pentecostalism, Christian or cult?

  • Don't know / Not sure what it is.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    45

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
DHK, you remind me of the Pharisees in Luke 7:30)..."The Pharisees and lawyers rejeted the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized."
That's not the whole verse. It's "being not baptized of him [John the Baptist]". The rejected his message of repentance, which the baptism represented. Just as now, Baptism had no saving power in itself.

Baptism as a work of God is "by one spirit into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13), meaning that we are "immersed" into the body of Christ. This is the baptism that "doth now save" (1 Pet.3:21). The water ceremony was to accompany it; but over time, as the Church developed into a series of conflicting organizations, it became no longer feasible to baptize someone immediately on conversion. You can see this, (and its unofficial replacement, the altar call), discussed at http://members.aol.com/etb700/baptism.html.

As for another of those essentials; even though Oneness (modalism) on the surface accepts the deity of Christ, still, I notice that when you press them on how Christ can pray to the Father, sit at His right hand, and whether the Father died on the Cross (patripassianism); they will often start to separate the two natures of Christ into practically two separate entities: a divine Christ that unites to a purely human Jesus. This then does compromise the true deity of Christ, and becomes nearly identical to progressive monarchianism (the theology of the Way Int. or Christadelphians)
 

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by DHK:
[QB] I basically agree with you folk. I believe we agree on the essentials of salvation. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Salvation is really very simple.

**Well well, DHK, are you feeling good about yourself? Do you think that everyone is against me and believes everything you believe? MY my, you must be about to pop a few buttons. ;)

**If they do, well that's OK....Jesus stood alone also. I have no fear as long as He is with me.


But the one person here who disagrees is MEE. If MEE will answer honestly without avoiding the question:
"Is baptism essential for one's salvation?" I believe that her religion will force her to say yes.

**How many times do I have to tell you "yes" DHK? I have the right to believe what I read and understand to be the truth.

**Nobody forces me to say anything. You should know that by now. If that were the case, you would have had me "backslid" by now. :rolleyes:


However we believe, as most of you have expressed, that baptism is important, but it is an act of obedience after salvatioon, not a part of salvation.

**Is this where your group of 'DHK believers' are supposed to clap for you?
applause.gif
Go ahead group, make his day! ;)

MEE
saint.gif
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by music4Him:
According to # 12 of the 3 essentials in my post where I quoted the salvation test....(i.e.
12) Salvation, or the forgiveness of sins, is by grace through faith. You cannot add anything to Jesus' finished work.
...and DHK's post (here's a quote)

Quote by DHK
--------------------------------------------------
You have posted the same before; it is what your cult believes. If baptism is essential to salvation, then salvation is by works. For baptism is a work
DHK

--------------------------------------------------
MEE, is this true? :confused:
Then why MEE, back on page three, where this question was posted, did you avoid an honest answer?

But the one person here who disagrees is MEE. If MEE will answer honestly without avoiding the question:
"Is baptism essential for one's salvation?" I believe that her religion will force her to say yes.

**How many times do I have to tell you "yes" DHK? I have the right to believe what I read and understand to be the truth.
If you had admitted to this two pages ago, we would have saved ourselves a lot of bandwith.
DHK
 

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by DHK:

If you had admitted to this two pages ago, we would have saved ourselves a lot of bandwith.
DHK
How many ways do I have to say yes? You must not read, but skim over posts. ***sigh*** :rolleyes:

Now, are you finished with MEE? If so, go on to your next victim and give me a rest.

MEE
saint.gif
 

Nevertheless

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nevertheless:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--"not of works" means not of baptism.
DHK
How do you reach such a conclusion? Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians. </font>[/QUOTE]That is entirely the point. Baptism is not required for salvation, and never was.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (not baptized)
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (not whosoever shall be baptized)

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--(Whosoever believes; not is baptized)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

Salvation is by the grace of God, and through faith in that grace--the grace that Christ suffered and died and shed his blood for our sins on the cross of Calvary. It was all the grace of our Lord and Saviour. We accept it by faith, not by baptism.
DHK
</font>[/QUOTE]DHK, you keep accusing MEE of refusing to answer your questions and then you turn around and give me a non-answer. I ddn't ask you to give support for your beliefs about baptism!

You said that Paul's phrase "not of works" in Ephesians means "not of baptism". I quite reasonably questioned you about this since Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians!

Again, I DON'T want you to explain your beliefs about baptism. I DO want you to explain your exegesis of this scripture. Why do you think it is proper or even necessary to interpret "works" as "baptism"? What is there about the context that tells you that baptism is what Paul is really referring to?

You do an excellent job of quoting scriptures to support your position. You state your beliefs quite clearly. Can you do as good a job answering my question?

Never
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Eph.2:8,9 because he doesn't have to. My question to MEE was: "Is baptism essential to salvation?"

Eph.2:8,9 is one of the most concisely worded passages that clearly explains what salvation is. It tells us that it is by grace (it all of the grace of God--nothing that man could ever do);
Then it says "through faith." Through faith we accept what Christ accomplished on the cross in his grace.
"And that not of yourselves" There is absolutely nothing that we can do to merit salvation--including being baptized.
"It is the gift of God" Salvation is a gift; it cannot be earned, merited, worked for, in any way. That also eliminates baptism. Salvation is the free gift of God. All you have to do is to receive it by faith.
"Not of works" Baptism is a work. It is a work of man, though it be a commandment of God. It is like prayer. We are commmanded to do it. God doesn't do it. We do. It is a work that we engage in after we are saved. Baptism is the first command or work of the Christian life that a Christian ought to obey. It is not part of salvation; it comes after salvation. Thus salvation is not of works. All throughout this passage it emphasizes that salvation is not of works, not of yourself, but all of the grace of God. It is one of the most powerful verses to use against those who believe that baptism is essential to salvation. That is why I quoted it, and the other verses. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, And God does not lie.
DHK
 

Nevertheless

New Member
Thank you, DHK. to be sure I understand you, let me restate it and you correct me if I misunderstood.

Because baptism is a work, like prayer or giving to the needy, it is included (along with many other things) in the word "works". Thus Paul is saying that salvation is a gift, not earned by baptism, prayer, giving, etc.

If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, then thus far we agree.

Now if you don't mind, I have another question (or two)for you.

Is repentance a work? it seems to fit your definition, since it is something man does. Just like baptism, repentance does not earn salvation for us.

So, using the same logic for repentance that you used for baptism, couldn't we say that repentance is not essential for salvation? Would you agree that repentance is not essential to salvation?


Never
 

Marcia

Active Member
Originally posted by music4Him:
Before I answer this poll I have to ask a question on three essential things as to what the Oneness Pentecostalism believes. Do they believe the three essentials in the qoute below?
BTW, I got this information from a test at www.carm.org if you would like to check out the Salvation test here is that link.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/test.htm

Here is what the administrator of the test said....
quote:
__________________________________________________
What are the essentials? Easy. The Bible tells us what they are. They are test questions number 3, 8, and 12.

3) Jesus is God in flesh;

8) Jesus rose from the dead in the same body he died in; and

12) Salvation, or the forgiveness of sins, is by grace through faith. You cannot add anything to Jesus' finished work.

There are many extremely important doctrines in the Bible: the Trinity, resurrection, forgiveness, the virgin birth, etc. But the Bible itself declares that these three are essential. If you deny any one of the three then you are not a Christian.
__________________________________________________

Do Oneness Petacostals believe these 3 things needful for salvation?
The problem is that cults change or redefine the meaning of words. When Oneness people say Jesus is God in the flesh, they mean God the Father.

Jesus is NOT God the Father in the flesh.

And, yes, Oneness is a cult because they depart from historic Christian beliefs in a BIG way.
 

Marcia

Active Member
From the UPC website (I can't post the link, I don't hink).
It is true that water itself does not contain any saving virtue, but God has chosen to include it in His plan of salvation.
They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

This link to a Christian site gives info on Oneness beliefs:
http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Nevertheless:
Thank you, DHK.
Hi Nevertheless. I am glad to answer your questions any time.
to be sure I understand you, let me restate it and you correct me if I misunderstood.

Because baptism is a work, like prayer or giving to the needy, it is included (along with many other things) in the word "works". Thus Paul is saying that salvation is a gift, not earned by baptism, prayer, giving, etc.
That is correct.

If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, then thus far we agree.

Now if you don't mind, I have another question (or two)for you.

Is repentance a work? it seems to fit your definition, since it is something man does. Just like baptism, repentance does not earn salvation for us.

So, using the same logic for repentance that you used for baptism, couldn't we say that repentance is not essential for salvation? Would you agree that repentance is not essential to salvation?
Repentance is definitely essential salvation. Jesus said: "Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish."
Also:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Hoever the simple command to be saved is still:
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," (Acts 16:31)

Believe is an action word. It includes repentance. I repent when I believe. Believe is not simply just an itellectual assertion, such as, I believe in "Sidney Crosby," that he will make a good hockey player. One needs more than just an intellectual assertion to be saved. In one's belief there is repentance included.

Consider what James says:
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
--The devils (or demons) obviously are not going to heaven. There is no repentance in their belief. This is the difference in our belief (when we come to Christ) and their belief. Thus repentance is not a work.
I hope that helps.
DHK
 

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by Marcia:
From the UPC website (I can't post the link, I don't hink).
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is true that water itself does not contain any saving virtue, but God has chosen to include it in His plan of salvation.
They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

</font>[/QUOTE]You are correct Marcia, Oneness Pentecostals don't baptize in titles, which is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The *name* of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why you won't find, in the scriptures, where baptism was practiced using titles.

The practice of using titles was introduced by the Catholic Church. This was to enforce the belief the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not scriptural!

Matt. 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38)...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvtion in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16) For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48) And he commanded them to baptized in the name of the Lord.

**In the next verse, even John's baptism wasn't good enough under Grace.

Acts 19:4-5
4)Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Of course Marcia, everyone knows that you all don't believe in water baptism, as a must, but Oneness Pentecostals take the Bible for what it says.

Now, can anyone say that I didn't stay with the Bible? ;) If anyone chooses to remain with the doctrine provided by the CC, the choice is yours. :D

MEE
saint.gif
 

Rookiepastor

New Member
Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
From the UPC website (I can't post the link, I don't hink).
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is true that water itself does not contain any saving virtue, but God has chosen to include it in His plan of salvation.
They have a whole page on the "necessity of being baptized." They also believe you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. (Naturally, since they reject the Trinity).

</font>[/QUOTE]You are correct Marcia, Oneness Pentecostals don't baptize in titles, which is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The *name* of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why you won't find, in the scriptures, where baptism was practiced using titles.

The practice of using titles was introduced by the Catholic Church. This was to enforce the belief the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not scriptural!

Matt. 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38)...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvtion in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16) For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48) And he commanded them to baptized in the name of the Lord.

**In the next verse, even John's baptism wasn't good enough under Grace.

Acts 19:4-5
4)Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5)When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Of course Marcia, everyone knows that you all don't believe in water baptism, as a must, but Oneness Pentecostals take the Bible for what it says.

Now, can anyone say that I didn't stay with the Bible? ;) If anyone chooses to remain with the doctrine provided by the CC, the choice is yours. :D

MEE
saint.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Mee, are you saying that because I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that I was incorrectly baptized, and therefore not saved?

That is what the Oneness pastor here says.

He claims that they are the true church and no one else is going to heaven.

He that local pastor also says, that if I do not speak in tongues I am not saved.

Please explain to me why he would say all of that.

Thanks

God Bless
 

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by Rookiepastor:


Mee, are you saying that because I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that I was incorrectly baptized, and therefore not saved?

That is what the Oneness pastor here says.

He claims that they are the true church and no one else is going to heaven.

He that local pastor also says, that if I do not speak in tongues I am not saved.

Please explain to me why he would say all of that.

Thanks

God Bless
RP, I think that the scriptures that I posted speak for themselves, as far as water baptism goes.


As far as what this pastor says, I don't believe any one organization/church are the only ones going to heaven.

I do believe that what a person calls themselves isn't important. Although, I do believe that one must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

If someone has truly believed, according to scripture, it dosen't matter if they are Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or whatever...they will be saved.

MEE
saint.gif
 

Rookiepastor

New Member
Originally posted by MEE:
RP, I think that the scriptures that I posted speak for themselves, as far as water baptism goes.


As far as what this pastor says, I don't believe any one organization/church are the only ones going to heaven.

I do believe that what a person calls themselves isn't important. Although, I do believe that one must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Ghost.

If someone has truly believed, according to scripture, it dosen't matter if they are Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, or whatever...they will be saved.

MEE
saint.gif
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I've repented, I've accepted Jesus, when I was saved the Holy Spirit moved in and took up residence... then later I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Tell me by your beliefs am I saved?
 

MEE

<img src=/me3.jpg>
Originally posted by Rookiepastor:


I've repented, I've accepted Jesus, when I was saved the Holy Spirit moved in and took up residence... then later I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Tell me by your beliefs am I saved?
RP, according to what I understand, you are at the repented stage....and probably a wonderful person that God loves very much.
love2.gif


MEE
saint.gif
 

Marcia

Active Member
Posted by MEE
The *name* of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why you won't find, in the scriptures, where baptism was practiced using titles.
Okay, everyone, here is a great example of Oneness beliefs -- Jesus is all 3 persons, Father, Son, and HS in their belief.

"Name" is singular because it is one God, but God is 3 Persons, as clearly shown in scripture. Have several links I can post to show that if anyone wants them posted.

Posted by MEE
Of course Marcia, everyone knows that you all don't believe in water baptism, as a must, but Oneness Pentecostals take the Bible for what it says.

Now, can anyone say that I didn't stay with the Bible?
We certainly can say that having to be baptized for salvation is not according to the Bible. Every verse Oneness and baptismal regeneration supporters use has been refuted by scripture. See:
http://aomin.org/bapreg.html
http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/OCC13.htm

I have more as well.
 

atestring

New Member
Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
Before I answer this poll I have to ask a question on three essential things as to what the Oneness Pentecostalism believes. Do they believe the three essentials in the qoute below?
BTW, I got this information from a test at www.carm.org if you would like to check out the Salvation test here is that link.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/test.htm

Here is what the administrator of the test said....
quote:
__________________________________________________
What are the essentials? Easy. The Bible tells us what they are. They are test questions number 3, 8, and 12.

3) Jesus is God in flesh;

8) Jesus rose from the dead in the same body he died in; and

12) Salvation, or the forgiveness of sins, is by grace through faith. You cannot add anything to Jesus' finished work.

There are many extremely important doctrines in the Bible: the Trinity, resurrection, forgiveness, the virgin birth, etc. But the Bible itself declares that these three are essential. If you deny any one of the three then you are not a Christian.
__________________________________________________

Do Oneness Petacostals believe these 3 things needful for salvation?
The problem is that cults change or redefine the meaning of words. When Oneness people say Jesus is God in the flesh, they mean God the Father.

Jesus is NOT God the Father in the flesh.

And, yes, Oneness is a cult because they depart from historic Christian beliefs in a BIG way.
</font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe that if a person that is saved by the Blood of Jesus who has forsaken sin and confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is the Christ is not saved because they were baptized in the "Name Of Jesus"? Therewill always be disagreements in the Body of Christ until we come into the unity of the Faith when Jesus takes up His bride But , How dare we call a Born again believer that is Born of the Spirit of God a Cult!
( I am not talking about Mormons or Buddhist but those who came through the Blood of JEsus)
 

Marcia

Active Member
Do you believe that if a person that is saved by the Blood of Jesus who has forsaken sin and confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is the Christ is not saved because they were baptized in the "Name Of Jesus"? Therewill always be disagreements in the Body of Christ until we come into the unity of the Faith when Jesus takes up His bride But , How dare we call a Born again believer that is Born of the Spirit of God a Cult!
The central issue is who is Jesus. The Oneness Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, and so I can, with all confidence, say that Oneness beliefs are cultic. This has been a position of the Christian Church since this belief was condemned in the 3rd century. It was called Sabellianism then.

As with many other early heresies, Sabellianism can be found in many cults of the twentieth century. Historically, this theological movement is actually a sub-category of Modalism or Monarchianism.

Dr. Samuel Mikolaski, professor of Historical Theology and Christian Heritage at North American Baptist Seminary, provides a historical setting for the rise of Sabellianism.

"Sabellianism was an attempt to solve the problem of how to accept the deity of Christ and also maintain the unity of God. Sabellians achieved this at the expense of a trinity of persons in the Godhead. They reduced the status of the persons to modes or manifestations of the one God. The term is frequently coupled with the word 'monarchy' to denote the primacy of God as the Father.

"The Son and the Holy Spirit are thus revelatory and apparently temporal modes of God the Father's self-revelation," (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, J.D. Douglas ed. pp.870-871).
From
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=673
 

atestring

New Member
Come on Marcia,
Do you really believe that Oneness people have another Jesus??
It seems that there is an argument that pops up when someone disagrees with some people that whoever they disagree with has another Jesus.
i have been saved by grace and bapized in the name of the fATHER, SON , AND Holy Ghost.
I cannot say to oneness peoplet that I have a different Jesus thatn they do.
By the way do you believe that the Methodist that is sprinkled came through another Jesus?
 

Marcia

Active Member
Originally posted by atestring:
Come on Marcia,
Do you really believe that Oneness people have another Jesus??
Do you really think I would post all that and not really mean it? It's not whether I believe it or not, it's what the Bible teaches. The Bible clearly teaches the Trinity. The Oneness Jesus has no Father because the OJ (Oneness Jesus) is the Father. Or maybe he's the flesh of the Father (in some views). So when Jesus prays to the Father, which is all over the Gospels, he's really talking to himself. And when he says, "My Father," he's talking about himself. That is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Before you criticize me again for taking this position, why don't you read a few of these articles?
http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessquestionresponse.htm

http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/{CDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446}/BB_PENTECOSTALS.pdf

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm
 
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