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"Oneness Pentecostals" cult!
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tragic_pizza
New Member
But arguing that there is no Trinity is not the same as arguing that there is no God, or that Jesus is not Christ, Lord and Savior.
Granted, calling Trinitarian theology "antichrist" is over the top, but polemic is like that.
Granted, calling Trinitarian theology "antichrist" is over the top, but polemic is like that.
donnA said:We've had oness penecostals on here in the past who argued there was no Trinity.
Because, they believe God is NOT One being in 3 persons, but they see GOD as One PERSON.
Person to them equals a god, more then one person equals polytheism...
It so sad that they use a stawman arguement when they discuss the God head with us Trinitarian, because we in no way, shape, or form believe in polytheism...
We believe that there is ONE GOD in three persons........
Darron Steele
New Member
I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination.
1) Scripture nowhere explicitly teaches the Trinity as we have it. It just does not. If the Lord wanted us to hold it as important as we do, I believe He would have been much more clear.
2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.
3) Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Some of them refer to Trinitarian theology as "Dividing God," which is not an accurate characterization of Trinitarian Christians. Scripture commands Christians to believe that Jesus Christ is God; they do this a different way than Trinitarian theology.
4) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals rejected the Trinity because Roman Catholicism teaches it, Scripture is not explicit on the Trinity, and they commonly distrust Rome deeply. Many here consider that a virtue.
Apostolics vary deeply in their practices. At some churches, long sleeves is required; at others, short sleeves are fine. These are standards of modesty. I know that they teach that women must never cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11. I do not believe the passage teaches this extreme. I believe that many of their `holiness' standards are biblically unmerited -- but I commend them for taking living godly so seriously.
Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.
1) Scripture nowhere explicitly teaches the Trinity as we have it. It just does not. If the Lord wanted us to hold it as important as we do, I believe He would have been much more clear.
2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.
3) Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Some of them refer to Trinitarian theology as "Dividing God," which is not an accurate characterization of Trinitarian Christians. Scripture commands Christians to believe that Jesus Christ is God; they do this a different way than Trinitarian theology.
4) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals rejected the Trinity because Roman Catholicism teaches it, Scripture is not explicit on the Trinity, and they commonly distrust Rome deeply. Many here consider that a virtue.
Apostolics vary deeply in their practices. At some churches, long sleeves is required; at others, short sleeves are fine. These are standards of modesty. I know that they teach that women must never cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11. I do not believe the passage teaches this extreme. I believe that many of their `holiness' standards are biblically unmerited -- but I commend them for taking living godly so seriously.
Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.
Any religion that requires both baptism (by their own religion), and speaking in tongues as a conditon for salvation is depending on works for their salvation. Oneness Pentecostal thus does not believe that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. It is a works salvation. It is a cult.
tragic_pizza
New Member
DHK, I mean this not at all as a slam, but as an observation in search of information.
Do you consider any denomination not in line with your own personal theology to be a cult?
If not, which of we other denominations are not a cult?
Do you consider any denomination not in line with your own personal theology to be a cult?
If not, which of we other denominations are not a cult?
tragic_pizza said:But arguing that there is no Trinity is not the same as arguing that there is no God, or that Jesus is not Christ, Lord and Savior.
Granted, calling Trinitarian theology "antichrist" is over the top, but polemic is like that.
if Jesus is the Christ, He has to be God, if theres no Trinity, then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not exsist, or there is more then one God.
Say the Trinity does not exsist, or changeing any other atribute of God changes the biblical God, it is no longer he God of the bible they are talking about.
Denying any aspect of God comes from satan.
anyone who denies God in any form is not a christian denomination.I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination
Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ
so just how many gods is that then, lets see, Jesus, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, how many more are there, if their theology is correct there are at least 3 individual gods, none os which are the scriptural God.
Darron Steele
New Member
I know of no Apostolic congregation that teaches that speaking in tongues is required for salvation.DHK said:Any religion that requires both baptism (by their own religion), and speaking in tongues as a conditon for salvation is depending on works for their salvation. Oneness Pentecostal thus does not believe that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. It is a works salvation. It is a cult.
I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination.
Well, then you cannot be talking about any Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals that I know of.donnA said:anyone who denies God in any form is not a christian denomination.
Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Actually, no; they quote passages in Scripture about there being only ONE God against Trinitarians. They believe in only one God; they often allege, wrongly, that Trinitarians believe in three gods.donnA said:so just how many gods is that then, lets see, Jesus, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, how many more are there, if their theology is correct there are at least 3 individual gods, none os which are the scriptural God.
I believe I explained how their viewpoint works immediately before those quoted words:
One God, just like Trinitarians; Jesus Christ being God, just like Trinitarians.Darron Steele said:...
2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.
...
I do not agree with them on their distinctives, but in my opinion, this discussion would be a lot more meaningful, and more honoring to Christ's standards for our conduct, if what Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals REALLY believed was what was discussed.
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Almost all evangelical denominations are not a cult. The Oneness Pentecostal, when examined thoroughly, has all the marks of a cult. Although it is sometimes put in the general category of Charismatic because of their speaking in tongues it goes farther than just that in that it requires speaking in tongues for salvation. It also attacks the Godhead. Those two areas put it in the realm of a cult. But there are some other characteristics as well.tragic_pizza said:DHK, I mean this not at all as a slam, but as an observation in search of information.
Do you consider any denomination not in line with your own personal theology to be a cult?
If not, which of we other denominations are not a cult?
There are Pentecostal churches which are not cults such as the FGA or Full Gospel Assembly. The preach a sound evangelical gospel. Though they advocate tongues, they do not say that they are necessary for salvation. That is the difference. We certainly debate our differences here on the issue of tongues as you have seen. But I don't classify them as a cult.
Liberal denominations deny the fundamentals of the faith. They are liberal, but not a cult.
World religions are just that--other religions with views outside of Christianity, and thus not a cult.
You will find that most cults attack the deity of Christ.
Darron Steele said:I know of no Apostolic congregation that teaches that speaking in tongues is required for salvation.
http://www.carm.org/oneness/whatisoneness.htmIn addition, oneness theology also maintains that baptism is a necessary part of salvation; that is, in order to be saved, one must be baptized, by immersion. If you are not baptized you cannot be saved. However, not only must baptism be by immersion, it must also be administered with the formula "In Jesus’ name" rather than the formula "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19. Finally, this baptism must be administered by a duly ordained minister of a church that maintains oneness theology: United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc.
Oneness churches also teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Since a person cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), it follows that only those who have spoken in tongues are really saved. There is, therefore, an emphasis that Oneness church members speak in tongues to "demonstrate" that they are saved and have the truth.
We used to have a few Oneness Pentecostals on the board. They admitted that this was this truth. If tongues was not the evidence of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and you hadn't spoken in tongues, then you were not saved.
Thus both baptism and tongues were a requirement for salvation. That is a works salvation.
tragic_pizza
New Member
DHK, I appreciate your candor. Thanks for clearing that up for me.DHK said:Almost all evangelical denominations are not a cult. The Oneness Pentecostal, when examined thoroughly, has all the marks of a cult. Although it is sometimes put in the general category of Charismatic because of their speaking in tongues it goes farther than just that in that it requires speaking in tongues for salvation. It also attacks the Godhead. Those two areas put it in the realm of a cult. But there are some other characteristics as well.
There are Pentecostal churches which are not cults such as the FGA or Full Gospel Assembly. The preach a sound evangelical gospel. Though they advocate tongues, they do not say that they are necessary for salvation. That is the difference. We certainly debate our differences here on the issue of tongues as you have seen. But I don't classify them as a cult.
Liberal denominations deny the fundamentals of the faith. They are liberal, but not a cult.
World religions are just that--other religions with views outside of Christianity, and thus not a cult.
You will find that most cults attack the deity of Christ.
so your saying they do not deny the Trinity, they beleive in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?Well, then you cannot be talking about any Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals that I know of.
They beleive in one god, and since they beleive thats Jesus, then who is God the Father, another god, or not god at all?Actually, no; they quote passages in Scripture about there being only ONE God against Trinitarians. They believe in only one God; they often allege, wrongly, that Trinitarians believe in three gods.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Donna, it's like they're saying the same thing we Trinitarians are, but not so much.
God was Creator, then Redeemer, then Comforter. All three as One, but not, I guess, at the same time.
It's the kind of thing that happens when you try to over-think the Eternal.
God was Creator, then Redeemer, then Comforter. All three as One, but not, I guess, at the same time.
It's the kind of thing that happens when you try to over-think the Eternal.
Tragic Pizza quoting DHK:
"World religions are just that--other religions with views outside of Christianity, and thus not a cult.
You will find that most cults attack the deity of Christ.DHK"
Tragic Pizza:
"I appreciate your candor. Thanks for clearing that up for me."
GE:
But you have me, confused.
For me, 'World religions -- other religions with views outside of Christianity", are worse than just cults. They are idolatrous 'religion', in pure humanistic manifestation -- antichrist!
"World religions are just that--other religions with views outside of Christianity, and thus not a cult.
You will find that most cults attack the deity of Christ.DHK"
Tragic Pizza:
"I appreciate your candor. Thanks for clearing that up for me."
GE:
But you have me, confused.
For me, 'World religions -- other religions with views outside of Christianity", are worse than just cults. They are idolatrous 'religion', in pure humanistic manifestation -- antichrist!
There is no greater den of idolaters and idolatrous beliefs and practices than the (Roman) Catholic Church - they surpass any other. They surpass Islam in their idolatry; they make Budhism look like pure faith; they transform heathenism into pietism -- so idolatrous Catholicism of the Romish antitype is.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Gerhard, does your song book have more than one page?
Darron Steele
New Member
Darron Steele said:I know of no Apostolic congregation that teaches that speaking in tongues is required for salvation....
They must be different than the ones that I know of, and the Apostolic Pentecostals I know personally. I was not aware there were any with the belief you mentioned; thank you for the information.DHK said:
http://www.carm.org/oneness/whatisoneness.htm
We used to have a few Oneness Pentecostals on the board. They admitted that this was this truth. If tongues was not the evidence of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and you hadn't spoken in tongues, then you were not saved.
....
Jack Matthews
New Member
I didn't realize that there were oneness Pentecostals who referred to themselves as "Apostolic." I grew up in West Virginia, in an area where oneness Pentecostals were once pretty numerous, and as little as I knew about the Christian faith when I was growing up, I knew from the few oneness people I met in school that I wasn't saved because I hadn't spoken in tongues.
http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm
http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm
[*]Denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
[*]Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation.
[*]Jesus is God the Father.
[*]Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
[*]The name of God is "Jesus."
[*]Baptism is necessary for salvation.
[*]Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son. Teaches that the He existed as the Father.
[*]Being born again means repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues.
[*]Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid.
[*]Baptism must be administered with the phrase, "In the name of Jesus" instead of the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
[*]Speaking in tongues is a necessary requirement to demonstrate that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and is, therefore, saved. It is claimed to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
[*]Restitution of all things, though the devil and the angels will not be restored.
[*]Women may be pastors.3
[*]Only Oneness people will go to heaven.
http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm