"Oneness Pentecostals" cult!

[Darron Steele]

I'll use the word "believe" as another example.

It is clear that "believe" has different meanings when used in the New Testament. John 3:16 says that "whosoever believeth should not persish". Again, I use my example of the drunk in the street. Most "believeth" that Christ is Lord. But are they saved by simple 'belief'? It is obvious that the answer is no. So, the word believe as we know it, and the word believe as used in the New Testament is quite different.

So is the word "follow".

To "believe" in and to "follow" Christ suggests a more intimate and dedicated committment than the standard use of the words as defined by our 3rd grade dictionary.

Look, I am not interested in parsing the meaning of "follow" when it comes to following Christ. I do not know how I could; I do not see how the meaning is not obvious.

I know of many lost people who are good folks, and by outside appearance, they "follow" they teachings of Christ. They are moral, loving, caring people, but they are lost. Their moral standards are equal to or surpass church going christians, and they "believe" in God.....but they are still lost.

AJ

Correct -- if a person does the right things, but is not doing so because Christ said so, s/he is not a Christian.

If a person does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to be a follower of His teachings, then s/he is not a Christian. It does not matter how much s/he is like a Christian.

I fail to see the relevance to this discussion. Oneness Pentecostals do not live godly lives for reasons other than Jesus Christ. Oneness Pentecostals live godly lives because they seek to serve Jesus Christ.

 

[Darron Steele]

...Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.

I think that when I wrote that back in 2007, I was trying to say that in general, the people who adopt Oneness Pentecostalism are Christians. I was giving my biggest reason why, while making clear that I believe they are wrong.

They are not espousing a Christian view. Modalism was declared a heresy back in the 3rd century when it was called Sabellianism.

I think Christians need to realize that Satan is always on the attack on the Bible and on sound doctrine. It is his modus operandi. The very first Christians were experiencing attack on doctrine -- look through the NT epistles - many if not most of them were written to counter false teachers infiltrating the church.

Oneness teaching is not just some innocent misunderstanding. They are teaching a different God. Think about what it means when the Trinity is denied - for one thing, it makes a liar out of Jesus in several places where he speaks to the Father and talks about the Father. It also undermines God's word.

Oneness is an attack on the very nature of God....

First, I do not care what the third century proto-Orthodox/Proto-Catholic calls a "heresy." If we are going to go with the views of that group, it is time to start following their forms of "Tradition." Just because their leaders said something does not make it either true or false.

Second, the Trinity is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It is that simple. Jesus never taught the Trinity. It is that simple.

The precept of the Trinity fits what Scripture says quite well. However, nowhere in Scripture is the Trinity explicitly taught.

Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying something Scripture states. Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying anything Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that the Father was God, that He was God, and that He and the Father are distinct. They are both distinct, yet they are both God, and there is one God. That is ALL that is explicitly stated in Scripture. The Bible does not give details as to how.

Oneness Pentecostals believe all the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Scriptures about His Deity and the existence of only one God. They just understand them a different way than Trinitarians -- but they still believe them.

 

[Darron Steele]

How do I "define Christian'?" Simple. I do not. I simply adopt how the Bible defines "Christian."

The term “Christian” is a Bible term from the New Testament-era. When it comes to rightly understanding a New Testament-era term, we cannot do so based on disputes from any time afterward. That includes church disputes from the earliest centuries afterward or from the 16th-20th centuries. I believe that we should go with Bible meanings for Bible terms.

Scripture uses “believers” (NASB) for those in Christ’s church in such places as Acts 2:47+5:14, Acts 10:45, 1 Thessalonians 1:7, and 1 Timothy 6:2; Scripture uses “disciples” (ESV) in the same way in such places as Galatians 1:13+Acts 9:1, Acts 14:20-2, and Acts 11:26. Acts 11:26 has “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB); the Greek word translated “disciples” is plural for “one who follows one’s teachings.”* A Christian is simply someone who believes on Jesus Christ so as to be a follower of His teachings.

It is not a popular definition. Many people want it to mean `person who agrees adequately with me.' However, the Bible teaches the widely-unpopular definition, so regardless of popularity, it is true.
...
____
*Vine, et al, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary, page 171 NT.

They fit the definition if they hold to the teachings of the Bible; if not, they don't fit the definition. One of the ways that we know a false teacher is their false teachings. Oneness Pentecostals do not follow the bible's teaching on many things, including the nature of God and salvation.

Well, it looks like your definition of "Christian" differs from what the Bible teaches about the matter.

Maybe you should restate your definition to be more clear and to the point; my suggestion: `They fit the definition if they hold to what I think are the teachings of the Bible; if not, they don't fit the definition.'

Sorry, but you are not Jesus Christ. One does not have to be following your teachings to be a Christian.

Sorry, but you are not God. Scripture is the written Word of God. He gets to define "Christian"; you do not get to second-guess His definition or pick a different one you like better.

 

[nunatak]

Oneness Pentecostals do not live godly lives for reasons other than Jesus Christ. Oneness Pentecostals live godly lives because they seek to serve Jesus Christ.

Actually, Oneness Pentecostalism teaches a godly lifestyle as a requirement for salvation.

This is legalism.

However you define legalism, bottom line it is Law, salvation by works. They are trying to prove their own righteousness.

I have never met a Oneness Pentecostal for whom the following verse is true:

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Neither their righteousness, nor my righteousness, nor anybody's righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees.

But they are trying to earn salvation by proving their righteousness, because they reject the righteousness that comes by faith.

To encapsulate:

They do not believe salvation was a complete work of Christ on the cross.
They teach baptism is required for salvation.
They teach speaking in tongues as the proof of receiving the Holy Spirit.
They do not believe salvation by God's grace alone.
They do not hold to the biblical doctrine of Justification.
They mandate "holiness standards" as required for salvation.

to name a few. NONE of these are teachings of Christ, nor the apostles. On the contrary, ALL of these are opposed to what Christianity holds to as biblical.

So, I tell you, Oneness Pentecostalism is NOT Christianity.

 

[Darron Steele]

How do I "define Christian'?" Simple. I do not. I simply adopt how the Bible defines "Christian."

The term “Christian” is a Bible term from the New Testament-era. When it comes to rightly understanding a New Testament-era term, we cannot do so based on disputes from any time afterward. That includes church disputes from the earliest centuries afterward or from the 16th-20th centuries. I believe that we should go with Bible meanings for Bible terms.

Scripture uses “believers” (NASB) for those in Christ’s church in such places as Acts 2:47+5:14, Acts 10:45, 1 Thessalonians 1:7, and 1 Timothy 6:2; Scripture uses “disciples” (ESV) in the same way in such places as Galatians 1:13+Acts 9:1, Acts 14:20-2, and Acts 11:26. Acts 11:26 has “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB); the Greek word translated “disciples” is plural for “one who follows one’s teachings.”* A Christian is simply someone who believes on Jesus Christ so as to be a follower of His teachings.

It is not a popular definition. Many people want it to mean `person who agrees adequately with me.' However, the Bible teaches the widely-unpopular definition, so regardless of popularity, it is true.
...
____
*Vine, et al, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary, page 171 NT.

Actually, Oneness Pentecostalism teaches a godly lifestyle as a requirement for salvation.

This is legalism.

However you define legalism, bottom line it is Law, salvation by works. They are trying to prove their own righteousness.

I have never met a Oneness Pentecostal for whom the following verse is true:

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Neither their righteousness, nor my righteousness, nor anybody's righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees.

But they are trying to earn salvation by proving their righteousness, because they reject the righteousness that comes by faith.

To encapsulate:

They do not believe salvation was a complete work of Christ on the cross.
They teach baptism is required for salvation.
They teach speaking in tongues as the proof of receiving the Holy Spirit.
They do not believe salvation by God's grace alone.
They do not hold to the biblical doctrine of Justification.
They mandate "holiness standards" as required for salvation.

to name a few. NONE of these are teachings of Christ, nor the apostles. On the contrary, ALL of these are opposed to what Christianity holds to as biblical.

So, I tell you, Oneness Pentecostalism is NOT Christianity.

Well, I guess I will agree with you that Oneness Pentecostalism is not Christianity. It is a variant of Christianity.

If adopting a teaching that Jesus or His apostles never taught changes a Christian to a non-Christian, you would not be a Christian. Why? Since your definition of Christian is not taught by Jesus or His apostles, and you hold to it, by your standard of judgment, you ceased to be a Christian also. Fortunately for you, becoming a follower of Jesus Christ's real teachings is enough to be a Christian.

Oneness Pentecostals are Christians -- by the Bible's definition.

It looks like you want to define "Christian" by agreements with you, and by rejections of views you do not agree with. Well, you are not Jesus Christ. A person does not have to be following your teachings to be a Christian.

Further, you are not God. Scripture is the written Word of God. He gets to define "Christian"; you do not get to second-guess His definition or pick a different one you like better.

 

[Marcia]

First, I do not care what the third century proto-Orthodox/Proto-Catholic calls a "heresy." If we are going to go with the views of that group, it is time to start following their forms of "Tradition." Just because their leaders said something does not make it either true or false.

Second, the Trinity is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It is that simple. Jesus never taught the Trinity. It is that simple.

The precept of the Trinity fits what Scripture says quite well. However, nowhere in Scripture is the Trinity explicitly taught.

Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying something Scripture states. Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying anything Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that the Father was God, that He was God, and that He and the Father are distinct. They are both distinct, yet they are both God, and there is one God. That is ALL that is explicitly stated in Scripture. The Bible does not give details as to how.

Oneness Pentecostals believe all the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Scriptures about His Deity and the existence of only one God. They just understand them a different way than Trinitarians -- but they still believe them.

The nature of God is an essential of the faith. If that is denied or taught as something else, then it is rejecting what the Bible teaches and it is no the same God.

It is not that they understand God in a different way; they explicitly denounce the Trinity, calling it an evil doctrine.

Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, because their Jesus is a liar, their God is not Trinitarian, and the Holy Spirit is just a "manifestation" of the Father, who is Jesus, or of Jesus, who is the Father.

 

[Marcia]

Well, it looks like your definition of "Christian" differs from what the Bible teaches about the matter.

Maybe you should restate your definition to be more clear and to the point; my suggestion: `They fit the definition if they hold to what I think are the teachings of the Bible; if not, they don't fit the definition.'

Sorry, but you are not Jesus Christ. One does not have to be following your teachings to be a Christian.

Sorry, but you are not God. Scripture is the written Word of God. He gets to define "Christian"; you do not get to second-guess His definition or pick a different one you like better.

It's not a matter of following my teachings or what I think, Darron. It's a matter of who God is. Who God is is not up for opinion in the Bible. The Bible does teach the Trinity; it can be demonstrated.

Denying the Trinity and denouncing it is a rejection of the Biblical God (and Jesus).

God is not just who someone thinks he is. Either one is worshiping the true God or one is not; it's that simple. If you say Jesus is the Father, then who was he speaking to when he prayed? Himself? That's what we are left with. When Jesus said he would send "another" Comforter, then he was lying. That is what we are left with. I posted this earlier but you did not respond to it.

You are refusing to see the implications of Oneness beliefs, and how it makes Jesus a liar. There are other implications, but this should be enough.

It is not a variant of Christianity if one denies the biblical God.

 

[Darron Steele]

How do I "define Christian'?" Simple. I do not. I simply adopt how the Bible defines "Christian."

The term “Christian” is a Bible term from the New Testament-era. When it comes to rightly understanding a New Testament-era term, we cannot do so based on disputes from any time afterward. That includes church disputes from the earliest centuries afterward or from the 16th-20th centuries. I believe that we should go with Bible meanings for Bible terms.

Scripture uses “believers” (NASB) for those in Christ’s church in such places as Acts 2:47+5:14, Acts 10:45, 1 Thessalonians 1:7, and 1 Timothy 6:2; Scripture uses “disciples” (ESV) in the same way in such places as Galatians 1:13+Acts 9:1, Acts 14:20-2, and Acts 11:26. Acts 11:26 has “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB); the Greek word translated “disciples” is plural for “one who follows one’s teachings.”* A Christian is simply someone who believes on Jesus Christ so as to be a follower of His teachings.

It is not a popular definition. Many people want it to mean `person who agrees adequately with me.' However, the Bible teaches the widely-unpopular definition, so regardless of popularity, it is true.
...
____
*Vine, et al, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary, page 171 NT.

It's not a matter of following my teachings or what I think, Darron. It's a matter of who God is. Who God is is not up for opinion in the Bible. The Bible does teach the Trinity; it can be demonstrated.

Denying the Trinity and denouncing it is a rejection of the Biblical God (and Jesus).

God is not just who someone thinks he is. Either one is worshiping the true God or one is not; it's that simple. If you say Jesus is the Father, then who was he speaking to when he prayed? Himself? That's what we are left with. When Jesus said he would send "another" Comforter, then he was lying. That is what we are left with. I posted this earlier but you did not respond to it.

You are refusing to see the implications of Oneness beliefs, and how it makes Jesus a liar. ....

Marcia: I do not expect to keep involved in this.

I am not "refusing to see" anything. I could say that you are seeing things that are not there, but see them anyway because you want to. No Oneness Pentecostal calls Jesus "liar" that I know of.

The Trinity is not taught by express statement of Scripture. It may be implied, and it fits the statements of Scripture well, but ultimately, it is a human inference. Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying a teaching of Scripture.

The fact is, Marcia, you redefine "Christian" to be someone who agrees with your teachings about what you think the Bible says God is like. At least, that is part of your redefinition. I am sure you have other points people have to agree with you about for you to recognize them as "Christian."

When Scripture has one definition for "Christian" and you insist on having a different one, it comes down to Scripture versus resolved opinion. I am not willing to take the time when someone decides s/he will retain such an opinion.

Ultimately, it is not my problem. Your decision to redefine "Christian" in a way that centers on agreement with you rather than with just Christ, and which differs from that of God's written Word, will be resolved between you and the Lord.

 

[Benjamin]

You are refusing to see the implications of Oneness beliefs, and how it makes Jesus a liar. There are other implications, but this should be enough.

It is not a variant of Christianity if one denies the biblical God.

I agree, and in regards to refussing to see the implications as closely related to form of Universalism.

 

[nunatak]

Well, you are not Jesus Christ. A person does not have to be following your teachings to be a Christian.

Further, you are not God. Scripture is the written Word of God. He gets to define "Christian"; you do not get to second-guess His definition or pick a different one you like better.

Well said.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia: I do not expect to keep involved in this.

I am not "refusing to see" anything. I could say that you are seeing things that are not there, but see them anyway because you want to. No Oneness Pentecostal calls Jesus "liar" that I know of.

The Trinity is not taught by express statement of Scripture. It may be implied, and it fits the statements of Scripture well, but ultimately, it is a human inference. Denying the precept of the Trinity is not denying a teaching of Scripture.

The fact is, Marcia, you redefine "Christian" to be someone who agrees with your teachings about what you think the Bible says God is like. At least, that is part of your redefinition. I am sure you have other points people have to agree with you about for you to recognize them as "Christian."

When Scripture has one definition for "Christian" and you insist on having a different one, it comes down to Scripture versus resolved opinion. I am not willing to take the time when someone decides s/he will retain such an opinion.

Ultimately, it is not my problem. Your decision to redefine "Christian" in a way that centers on agreement with you rather than with just Christ, and which differs from that of God's written Word, will be resolved between you and the Lord.

I have to respond to this because I am not defining who a Christian is. It is the Bible's teachings that define that. And there are countless places that talk about who God and how important that it. One cannot have the wrong God and be a Christian.

Oneness Pentecostals are not regarded as Christians by any sound christian church I know of. It is not me defining this, Darron. And you are defining a Christian as someone who can reject the Biblical God, so you are doing what you accuse me of doing.

 

[AAA]

GE,
Tragic is no longer here. All the posts prior to Elk's first post were posted in February of 2007 and before that time. It is an old thread that has been resurrected.

Is that a bad thing that is has been "resurrected" to my surpridse??? LOL...