"Oneness Pentecostals" cult!

[Elk]

The simplicity

Dear Marcia,
I briefly looked at all the links that you gave me, and for all the 22 years of looking those are just more of the same----BUT, the thing I read recently on the internet was so SIMPLE and yet so profound that I am still reeling from it...and that is...
Are you ready????....

The Trinity document that I read was quite lengthy but written very simply with a lot of Scripture support.

It first talked about man and what is man...Soul, Body, Spirit. It talked about James where it says that a spirit cannot live in a dead body. When a physical body dies the spirit leaves. It talks about the human soul, created, the self expression that is manifested in the body and the spirit.
It mentioned how angels manifest their souls by a spirit being.

Well, it said all kinds of things in a very simplistic way, and then it talked about the Father--His Soul (mentioned a number of times in the Bible). This is Un-Created, the I AM, the self-existing ONE, etc. etc.
It talked about the Father's Spirit.
And again it had bunches of pages that elaborated on the awesomeness of the Father and all the Omni words, etc.

When then it talked about the SON, and here is the clincher...it talked about how the Son was born in the virgin Mary conceived by the Spirit, begotten by the Father, etc....
And well...

The SON has the Soul of the Father...only One Soul, the I AM, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit--but just One Spirit, and His Human Body.

Then it talked about James again, and how when JESUS died on the cross and His Body died, His Soul left, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit left...

And then it talked about the Holy Spirit...
Jesus said that in order for the Holy Spirit to come, He had to leave.

When we see the HOLY SPIRIT we are actually seeing the image of the Father's Spirit, His Soul, Jesus' Image of the Human and Divine Spirit, and well, it was mentioned over the centuries that people who saw in the Spiritual realm Jesus, they may have actually been seeing the Holy Spirit.

The only flaw that I saw in all these many, many pages was that flaw where it talked about His resurrection it leaves much to be desired about His Dead Body and omits saying that Jesus raised Himself up in the sense that HE did--I can't really explain it but it was like a missing link in the document, devoid of something in its view.
Because JESUS said Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, and elsewhere it says the Father Gave Him authority to raise Himself up. This flaw shows that this document is flawed but definitely worth thinking about.

What is all so sad, is this writer has a document elsewhere that is seriously flawed, but is that not how it goes? A great revelation but the other stuff yikes.

When everything is said and done, I just want to say, I was very impressed when it talked about the SOUL of God. This made sense to me, and I spent some time looking up SOUL in the Bible when it referred to God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Have you read the history and the outcomes of the 1st two ecumenical councils?

 

[DHK]

Dear Marcia,
I briefly looked at all the links that you gave me, and for all the 22 years of looking those are just more of the same----BUT, the thing I read recently on the internet was so SIMPLE and yet so profound that I am still reeling from it...and that is...
Are you ready????....

The Trinity document that I read was quite lengthy but written very simply with a lot of Scripture support.

It first talked about man and what is man...Soul, Body, Spirit. It talked about James where it says that a spirit cannot live in a dead body. When a physical body dies the spirit leaves. It talks about the human soul, created, the self expression that is manifested in the body and the spirit.
It mentioned how angels manifest their souls by a spirit being.

Do you have Scripture for angels having souls?
There is nothing in the Bible about "angels manifesting their souls."
Do you know that animals have souls? The Bible does say that. The way that we are different from animals is that we have a spirit, whereas animals do not. It is our spirit that enables us to communicate with God.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--This verse in James is simply a description of physical death--the body without the "spirit" is dead.
Most of the time the soul is simply defined as the mind, the intellect, the seat of our emotions. Sometimes the word soul is used interchangeably with spirit.

Well, it said all kinds of things in a very simplistic way, and then it talked about the Father--His Soul (mentioned a number of times in the Bible).

This is not true, and an obviously heretical statement.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
--God is a Spirit. He is not dualistic in any way. If the word soul is used in reference to God it is use allegorically. God is a Spirit, and must be worshiped as such.

This is Un-Created, the I AM, the self-existing ONE, etc. etc.
It talked about the Father's Spirit.
And again it had bunches of pages that elaborated on the awesomeness of the Father and all the Omni words, etc.

That would apply to the triune Godhead--God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: three persons all co-equal with one another and yet so unified together that they remain together as one God. None are manifestations of the other.

When then it talked about the SON, and here is the clincher...it talked about how the Son was born in the virgin Mary conceived by the Spirit, begotten by the Father, etc....
And well...

The SON has the Soul of the Father...only One Soul, the I AM, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit--but just One Spirit, and His Human Body.

The Father doesn't have a soul! That is heresy. Christ was born of the virgin Mary and conceived of the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous event to be sure. He is God incarnate. At no time from eternity past throughout his conception, life in the womb, birth, childhood, death, and life as it is now, did he or will he ever lose his deity. He always was, is, and always will be God.

Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
--There is only one God. There has never been more than one God. There was never any God before Jehovah. There will never be any God after Jehovah. The Jesus of the NT is the Jehovah of the OT. Jesus is God.

Then it talked about James again, and how when JESUS died on the cross and His Body died, His Soul left, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit left...

And where does James talk about this? Chapter and verse please?

And then it talked about the Holy Spirit...
Jesus said that in order for the Holy Spirit to come, He had to leave.

Jesus promised that when he would leave he would send the Comforter, or the Holy Spirit to the disciples; saying in effect that he was still going to be with them. He would never leave them nor forsake them. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is God. Christ is God. They are both part of the same triune Godhead.

When we see the HOLY SPIRIT

Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit?

we are actually seeing the image of the Father's Spirit, His Soul, Jesus' Image of the Human and Divine Spirit, and well, it was mentioned over the centuries that people who saw in the Spiritual realm Jesus, they may have actually been seeing the Holy Spirit.

But they weren't. That is a lot of gobbeldy-gook. What does the Bible say:

No man has seen God and lived.
The only begotten of the Father (Jesus), He hath declared Him.
But when I (Jesus) leave, I will send Him (the Holy Spirit) unto you.
I (God) will never leave you nor forsake you.
Jesus Christ: the same, yesterday, today and forever.

The only way that people could see God was through Jesus Christ.
But now Christ is gone. The Holy Spirit is operative in this day and age, and invites all to come to Christ. When one trusts Christ, Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit comes and indwells the believer. God is one. There is only one God. But there are three persons at work all the time: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The only flaw that I saw in all these many, many pages was that flaw where it talked about His resurrection it leaves much to be desired about His Dead Body and omits saying that Jesus raised Himself up in the sense that HE did--I can't really explain it but it was like a missing link in the document, devoid of something in its view.

The resurrection was the great demonstration of the deity of Christ. Christ said: I lay my life down; I take it up again. No man taketh it from me.

Because JESUS said Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, and elsewhere it says the Father Gave Him authority to raise Himself up. This flaw shows that this document is flawed but definitely worth thinking about.

What is all so sad, is this writer has a document elsewhere that is seriously flawed, but is that not how it goes? A great revelation but the other stuff yikes.

When everything is said and done, I just want to say, I was very impressed when it talked about the SOUL of God. This made sense to me, and I spent some time looking up SOUL in the Bible when it referred to God.

God has no soul. That should have raised a red flag right there. God is a Spirit, and demands to be worshiped as such--in spirit and in truth.
That man's theology is very much confused.

Go to Matthew chapter three and read over the baptism of Christ.
I would like you to consider what happened at that event.
John baptized Christ. Christ was there in person. Christ himself declared himself to be God. He did so in many places (John 14:6).
The Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon him. The Holy Spirit is God. See Acts chapter 5, where Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit. He then says that Ananias lied to God, the same person.
Then there is a voice out of heaven, from God the Father saying: This is my beloved Son, hear ye him.
--All three persons of the trinity are present all at the same time in one place. How do you account for that? How is it possible. All three are one? Three persons making up one God.

 

[Elk]

You say God has no soul?

I found God's Soul mentioned in

Lev 26:11, 26:30,
1 SAM 2:35 (soul-mind)
Job 23:13
PS 11:5
16:10
Many references of Soul in Psalm could relate to Jesus

Isaiah 42:1
53:11

Jer 12:7

Matt 12:18
Matt 26:38
Mark 14:34
John 12:27
Acts 2:27
Heb 10:38


Strongs OT is 5315
NT 5590


And what is your breakdown of my message anyway?
The points you made are valid, but it does not conflict with any of it.
As you know I believe more in the Oneness of God here than anyone!
JESUS IS GOD!
The Father is God!
The HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

What, you think I am denying something?
Actually, quite the opposite, but as I said the view is somehow flawed,
and as I said, it is not my view but it has got me thinking.

Thinking about God's Soul, which you thoroughly deny.

 

[DHK]

I found God's Soul mentioned in

Lev 26:11, 26:30,
1 SAM 2:35 (soul-mind)
Job 23:13
PS 11:5
16:10
Many references of Soul in Psalm could relate to Jesus

Isaiah 42:1
53:11

Jer 12:7

Matt 12:18
Matt 26:38
Mark 14:34
John 12:27
Acts 2:27
Heb 10:38


Strongs OT is 5315
NT 5590


And what is your breakdown of my message anyway?
The points you made are valid, but it does not conflict with any of it.
As you know I believe more in the Oneness of God here than anyone!
JESUS IS GOD!
The Father is God!
The HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

What, you think I am denying something?
Actually, quite the opposite, but as I said the view is somehow flawed,
and as I said, it is not my view but it has got me thinking.

Thinking about God's Soul, which you thoroughly deny.

Leviticus 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
--soul: anthropomorphic—meaning God Himself. God doesn’t have a soul.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
--same as above—soul is anthropomorphic, meaning God himself. God doesn’t have a soul.

1 Samuel 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
--no soul here.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
--The book of Job is poetry. This is figuratively written. Whatever God wants he can do.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
--“soul” refers to the person of God himself; not that God has a soul. Soul is often referred or used as a synonym to “person.”

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
--A prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. The reference therefore is irrelevant.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
--Again “soul” is used in the sense of “person”. “In whom I delight.”

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
--A prophecy of Christ, and therefore irrelevant.

Jeremiah 12:7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.
--These are the words of Jeremiah, not of the Lord. “the soul” is the soul of Jeremiah. Read the context.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
--Again, soul refers to the person. God is well pleased with his son; not God has a soul. That is not the teaching.

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Jesus was totally man and totally God at the same time. Yes, Christ had a human soul.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
--No argument—Christ had a human soul.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
--Yes, Jesus had a human soul.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
--This is a fulfillment of prophecy, a word for word quote from Psalms, and speaking of Christ. There is nothing unusual here.

Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. ASV
--A quote from Hab.2:4. It is God that is saying this, and soul is used again as “the person of Jehovah.”
God will not have any pleasure in him.

In all of these passages, not one of them teach that God has a soul; not one.
God sometimes is figuratively referred to as a soul. That is as a person, for He is. He is a person of the triune Godhead. But he is a spirit, and as a spirit, cannot have a soul. To say that God the Father, a spirit, has a soul, is heresy.

 

[Darron Steele]

I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination.

1) Scripture nowhere explicitly teaches the Trinity as we have it. It just does not. If the Lord wanted us to hold it as important as we do, I believe He would have been much more clear.

2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.

3) Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Some of them refer to Trinitarian theology as "Dividing God," which is not an accurate characterization of Trinitarian Christians. Scripture commands Christians to believe that Jesus Christ is God; they do this a different way than Trinitarian theology.

4) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals rejected the Trinity because Roman Catholicism teaches it, Scripture is not explicit on the Trinity, and they commonly distrust Rome deeply. Many here consider that a virtue.

Apostolics vary deeply in their practices. At some churches, long sleeves is required; at others, short sleeves are fine. These are standards of modesty. I know that they teach that women must never cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11. I do not believe the passage teaches this extreme. I believe that many of their `holiness' standards are biblically unmerited -- but I commend them for taking living godly so seriously.

Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.

If this is open to one's own whim as you imply, then why did Jesus pray to the "Father"?, and why does Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father also?

Never, not once does Jesus tell us to pray to Himself, or Mary or any saints. Jesus only told us to pray to the Father.

To me this is clear evidence that the "Father" is a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, Jesus said He would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. He didnt say He would come back as the Holy Spirit, He said He would send Him. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is also a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, as has been stated before, adding Baptism and signs of tongues to salvation is teaching "salvation by works" and not solely by Grace.

If our works determines our eternity, and not just solely the Grace of God, then I am in trouble.

AJ

I wrote my words above a long time ago. This thread has been dead since 2007 until it was `resurrected' a few days ago. I do not remember exactly what my thoughts were as I wrote.

Still, I do not see what anything you wrote has any relevance to what I said. I do not believe I advocated that Jesus and the Father are not distinct, or that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from Christ. I would not do so either. I do not see what your remark about Mary had to do with anything I said either. I do not see where I suggested works cause salvation, because I would not do so.

I wrote what I wrote, exactly what I wrote, and only what I wrote. What you posted apprently in reply seems to have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

 

[Benjamin]

Dear Marcia,
I briefly looked at all the links that you gave me, and for all the 22 years of looking those are just more of the same----BUT, the thing I read recently on the internet was so SIMPLE and yet so profound that I am still reeling from it...and that is...
Are you ready????....

The Trinity document that I read was quite lengthy but written very simply with a lot of Scripture support.

It first talked about man and what is man...Soul, Body, Spirit. It talked about James where it says that a spirit cannot live in a dead body. When a physical body dies the spirit leaves. It talks about the human soul, created, the self expression that is manifested in the body and the spirit.
It mentioned how angels manifest their souls by a spirit being.

Well, it said all kinds of things in a very simplistic way, and then it talked about the Father--His Soul (mentioned a number of times in the Bible). This is Un-Created, the I AM, the self-existing ONE, etc. etc.
It talked about the Father's Spirit.
And again it had bunches of pages that elaborated on the awesomeness of the Father and all the Omni words, etc.

When then it talked about the SON, and here is the clincher...it talked about how the Son was born in the virgin Mary conceived by the Spirit, begotten by the Father, etc....
And well...

The SON has the Soul of the Father...only One Soul, the I AM, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit--but just One Spirit, and His Human Body.

Then it talked about James again, and how when JESUS died on the cross and His Body died, His Soul left, His Human Spirit and Divine Spirit left...

And then it talked about the Holy Spirit...
Jesus said that in order for the Holy Spirit to come, He had to leave.

When we see the HOLY SPIRIT we are actually seeing the image of the Father's Spirit, His Soul, Jesus' Image of the Human and Divine Spirit, and well, it was mentioned over the centuries that people who saw in the Spiritual realm Jesus, they may have actually been seeing the Holy Spirit.

The only flaw that I saw in all these many, many pages was that flaw where it talked about His resurrection it leaves much to be desired about His Dead Body and omits saying that Jesus raised Himself up in the sense that HE did--I can't really explain it but it was like a missing link in the document, devoid of something in its view.
Because JESUS said Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, and elsewhere it says the Father Gave Him authority to raise Himself up. This flaw shows that this document is flawed but definitely worth thinking about.

What is all so sad, is this writer has a document elsewhere that is seriously flawed, but is that not how it goes? A great revelation but the other stuff yikes.

When everything is said and done, I just want to say, I was very impressed when it talked about the SOUL of God. This made sense to me, and I spent some time looking up SOUL in the Bible when it referred to God.

Are you ready???...

For what? A revelation??? Hmm

There are obvious problems in the premise you have presented from the beginning: first, a created creature making the comparison of his body/spirit/soul as being on the same plane as his Divine Creator’s nature.

It might seem to them (or you) to make simple sense by comparing human likeness and finite understandings of one soul/one person and this would seem to make it sound a matter of “simplicity.” (A familiar phrase I heard often) As a matter of fact it would probably make the Oneness believers think of themselves as little gods in being able to compare their nature to Gods. How convenient, that being little gods goes right along with their theology as I recall! But there is only One God and His ways are not our ways, neither is His Nature like our nature.

Second, this play on that God has a soul and that it is indivisible, a being of one person being compared to a man’s body/spirit/soul. The Son had a body, did the Father? So what you have here is the Oneness having to have God manifesting around (changing His nature) as one person, yet, at times you (they) have a separating “One God”, a body here, a spirit there, and a soul, everywhere??? (God is a Spirit with One nature) you add a soul on the premise of the scriptures you have provided then you better also add hands, a mouth, a heart to make this nature complete. Does a spirit have these things? Is the Hand of God literal?

Oneness believers have to divide their view of “ONE” God (BTW, typical of them to capitalize in this fashion) more and more, and they have no choice but to attempt to put Him in different places at different times while simultaneously providing an assortment of manifestations with statements like you’ve made below:

And then it talked about the Holy Spirit...
Jesus said that in order for the Holy Spirit to come, He had to leave.

And then like Humpty Dumpty they have to put Him back together again:

When we see the HOLY SPIRIT we are actually seeing the image of the Father's Spirit, His Soul, Jesus' Image of the Human and Divine Spirit, and well, it was mentioned over the centuries that people who saw in the Spiritual realm Jesus, they may have actually been seeing the Holy Spirit.

You do realize the belief of Oneness is that that One God manifests Himself in different ways and the above statements are meant to be evidence of that??? While I’m thinking of it, what about providing evidence of manifestations of God by comparing angels?

It mentioned how angels manifest their souls by a spirit being.

(Psa 89:6) For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

Actually, quite the opposite, but as I said the view is somehow flawed,
and as I said, it is not my view but it has got me thinking.

You’re right it is flawed; it is obvious that in countless ways it is flawed, and if you understand what they are leading to why do you say it has you thinking?

As you know I believe more in the Oneness of God here than anyone!

Do you, or do you not understand the implications of saying you believe in the “Oneness” of God? That word has meanings yet from my experience the Oneness people love to play on the word. Hmm

JESUS IS GOD!
The Father is God!
The HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

I believe the above as a Trinitarian but Oneness belief is that Jesus is the Father, through manifestation; this is what I am hearing when you say you believe in Oneness (what you say is flawed, yet has you thinking)? For you to have just read this "recently" I am hearing a lot of familiar dogma. Frankly, with all the deja moo and contrary statements I'm beginning to think I may have been wrong in giving you the benefit out doubt about searching; you’re starting to sound more like a troll dude.

 

[Goldie]

The only good remedy against Oneness Pentecostals is good Bible teaching and the grace of God. That's what lead me out of a UPC.

And where did it lead you to? The Roman Catholic Church? If so, it's a case of "from the frying pan into the fire".

 

[Elk]

Dear DHK

Do you believe that the Father is Spirit and that is all, Spirit?

 

[ajg1959]

I wrote my words above a long time ago. This thread has been dead since 2007 until it was `resurrected' a few days ago. I do not remember exactly what my thoughts were as I wrote.

Still, I do not see what anything you wrote has any relevance to what I said. I do not believe I advocated that Jesus and the Father are not distinct, or that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from Christ. I would not do so either. I do not see what your remark about Mary had to do with anything I said either. I do not see where I suggested works cause salvation, because I would not do so.

I wrote what I wrote, exactly what I wrote, and only what I wrote. What you posted apprently in reply seems to have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Sorry Darron, my first sentence was in response to your last sentence in your post where you implied that it didnt matter if people follow a false doctrine as loing as thier goal is to serve Christ. The rest of my post was a collection of thoughts that came from the many posts that I read before I read yours.

I should have started a new reply instead of hitting the quote button.

I make many mistakes when I am in a hurry, especially on the net!!!!

Forgive me

AJ

 

[Benjamin]

Do you believe that the Father is Spirit and that is all, Spirit?

What does it mean when the Word says: "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." ?

Does it mean you can worship Him while comparing His Nature to mans?

 

[Elk]

Dear DHK and Benjamin

First you both are mistaken about all this...I did not write this document, and as I said so clearly I am just contemplating this as I did read this document recently, and the concept of God's Soul had never occurred to me.

Furthermore, we are indeed made in the image of God...we can analyze what that means and decide a bunch of factors what that means and what it does not, and well all that, but the Bible does say we are in His Image, except the huge exception no matter how people view it, is that we are created.

Furthermore, as this whole topic is about Oneness versus Trinity...did you know that this document that I concisely shared is in defense of the Trinity and all about the Trinity? You won't find this in Oneness theology that I am aware of, actually, I have never heard of it anywhere except from a website.

But my point and question to DHK REGARDING the Trinity is in John 4 Jesus talked about the Father and said pertaining to the Father, that God is Spirit...

SO...

In a radical Trinity view where they are all co-equal, co-eternal as Trinity is usually described...my question then if the Father is Spirit...IS the HOLY SPIRIT "ANOTHER" Spirit?

This has plagued me for quite a time.

 

[Elk]

Let me point out

Where this all started for me and why I am so messed up about the Trinity...it all started when a theologian who I highly regard (many years ago) told me that he believed that when he gets to Heaven, he will see Three Persons in Heaven.

This had done a number on my brain that just about did me in.

I did not know which Person to pray to. John 14:14 for one.

I was troubled for years, until I came to this place where God was waiting for me all along, was just pray and ask the Lord Jesus for Truth.

And this has been the road that I have been on...God has shown me so very much. Yet, everytime I listen to man, the pieces don't fit.

And every single person has a slightly different view on the Trinity.

And I guess that is that way, because God is so Very Big and how can we relate or know...as God fills the universe and so soooooooooo much more we just can't imagine.

 

[Darron Steele]

I am going to go on a limb here and assume, probably wrongly, that the sole purpose of this thread is not just to bash a Christian denomination.

1) Scripture nowhere explicitly teaches the Trinity as we have it. It just does not. If the Lord wanted us to hold it as important as we do, I believe He would have been much more clear.

2) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals, from what I understand from them, teach that Jesus Christ was first God the Father, then incarnated and lived on the earth as Son, and after ascension returned to the earth as the Holy Spirit. Yes I know there are Scripture difficulties with this, but that is what they believe.

3) Denial of the Trinity does not necessarily mean denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Some of them refer to Trinitarian theology as "Dividing God," which is not an accurate characterization of Trinitarian Christians. Scripture commands Christians to believe that Jesus Christ is God; they do this a different way than Trinitarian theology.

4) Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals rejected the Trinity because Roman Catholicism teaches it, Scripture is not explicit on the Trinity, and they commonly distrust Rome deeply. Many here consider that a virtue.

Apostolics vary deeply in their practices. At some churches, long sleeves is required; at others, short sleeves are fine. These are standards of modesty. I know that they teach that women must never cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11. I do not believe the passage teaches this extreme. I believe that many of their `holiness' standards are biblically unmerited -- but I commend them for taking living godly so seriously.

Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.

If this is open to one's own whim as you imply, then why did Jesus pray to the "Father"?, and why does Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father also?

Never, not once does Jesus tell us to pray to Himself, or Mary or any saints. Jesus only told us to pray to the Father.

To me this is clear evidence that the "Father" is a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, Jesus said He would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. He didnt say He would come back as the Holy Spirit, He said He would send Him. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is also a seperate "person" than the Son.

Also, as has been stated before, adding Baptism and signs of tongues to salvation is teaching "salvation by works" and not solely by Grace.

If our works determines our eternity, and not just solely the Grace of God, then I am in trouble.

AJ

I wrote my words above a long time ago. This thread has been dead since 2007 until it was `resurrected' a few days ago. I do not remember exactly what my thoughts were as I wrote.

Still, I do not see what anything you wrote has any relevance to what I said. I do not believe I advocated that Jesus and the Father are not distinct, or that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from Christ. I would not do so either. I do not see what your remark about Mary had to do with anything I said either. I do not see where I suggested works cause salvation, because I would not do so.

I wrote what I wrote, exactly what I wrote, and only what I wrote. What you posted apprently in reply seems to have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Sorry Darron, my first sentence was in response to your last sentence in your post where you implied that it didnt matter if people follow a false doctrine as loing as thier goal is to serve Christ. The rest of my post was a collection of thoughts that came from the many posts that I read before I read yours.

I should have started a new reply instead of hitting the quote button.

I make many mistakes when I am in a hurry, especially on the net!!!!

Forgive me

AJ

I do forgive you, but it looks like you have made another one of your "many mistakes when I am in a hurry."

You say that I "implied that it didnt matter if people follow a false doctrine as loing as thier goal is to serve Christ" but I do not see where I said that nor implied it.

I DID say "Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors." I think this may be where you got your wrong impression.

Regardless, it looks like you took something I wrote and read more into it than what I wrote. As I said before, I wrote what I wrote, exactly what I wrote, and only what I wrote.

I am suggesting this with every attempt to be kind: before you reply to a post, you read it carefully, be sure you understand exactly what the poster was saying/not saying, and not reply until you do so.

 

[ajg1959]

I do forgive you, but it looks like you have made another one of your "many mistakes when I am in a hurry."

You say that I "implied that it didnt matter if people follow a false doctrine as loing as thier goal is to serve Christ" but I do not see where I said that nor implied it. I DID say "Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors."

It looks like you took something I wrote and read more into it than what I wrote. As I said before, I wrote what I wrote, exactly what I wrote, and only what I wrote.

I am suggesting this with every attempt to be kind: before you reply to a post, you read it carefully, be sure you understand exactly what the poster was saying/not saying, and not reply until you do so.

""""Who is their Lord? Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors.""""""

Sorry, but here it implies that the errors of false doctrine dont matter as long as they serve the same Lord as you. I dont think I misread that statement or added anything to it.

I am sorry, i disagree, but it is not a big deal.

AJ

 

[Elk]

Darron (and all)

You mentioned about the distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity...

I just wanted to comment, when I think of the distinctions of the Trinity, this is the only thing I come up with....these to me are clear distinctions...

The Flesh of Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit that can reside in us.

In all my studying that is where I see the distinctions thus far.

When it comes to other distinctions, I have trouble finding them...
Who raised Jesus from the dead? All
Who sends the Holy Spirit? All
Who owns the throne of God?
Who's commandments should we obey?
There are many more questions that could be asked, but we would have trouble in distinctions...

I would love to know more clear distinctions...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You mentioned about the distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity...

I just wanted to comment, when I think of the distinctions of the Trinity, this is the only thing I come up with....these to me are clear distinctions...

The Flesh of Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit that can reside in us.

In all my studying that is where I see the distinctions thus far.

When it comes to other distinctions, I have trouble finding them...
Who raised Jesus from the dead? All
Who sends the Holy Spirit? All
Who owns the throne of God?
Who's commandments should we obey?
There are many more questions that could be asked, but we would have trouble in distinctions...

I would love to know more clear distinctions...

Same substance Homoosious three Hypostasis.

 

[nunatak]

I DID say "Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors." I think this may be where you got your wrong impression.

Perhaps you would tell us exactly what you mean?

 

[Darron Steele]

You mentioned about the distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity...

I just wanted to comment, when I think of the distinctions of the Trinity, this is the only thing I come up with....these to me are clear distinctions...

The Flesh of Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit that can reside in us.

In all my studying that is where I see the distinctions thus far.

When it comes to other distinctions, I have trouble finding them...
Who raised Jesus from the dead? All
Who sends the Holy Spirit? All
Who owns the throne of God?
Who's commandments should we obey?
There are many more questions that could be asked, but we would have trouble in distinctions...

I would love to know more clear distinctions...

When a Christian group is being targetted in a manner like this thread, I usually prefer not to criticize the Christian group. If a church person wants to debate some precept of another Christian group, I can accept that, and will give my criticisms in detail as appropriate. This thread seems to be different: the goal of something like this is commonly to start a `bashing frenzy.' I do not want to add to it, but I will answer your query.

From what I have picked up, Oneness theology has this progression through time: God the Father --> God the Son Jesus Christ --> God the Holy Spirit.

Lord Jesus is “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (NKJV, ESV) according to 2 Peter 1:1. However, by the time this was written, the Holy Spirit had been on the earth for decades. Evidently, Jesus Christ still existed when the Holy Spirit existed on the earth.

Now, notice this passage: Colossians 3:1 says "If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God" (ASV).

In Luke 22, God the Son Jesus Christ prayed to God the Father. God the Son Jesus Christ begged God the Father to change the outcome of what was coming.

In Oneness theology, the manifestation God the Father was replaced by the manifestation Jesus Christ. Here in these latter two passages and others like them, God the Father and Jesus Christ coexist.

I have heard it said that such passages are "symbolic" but I do not see that. I think it best to take such passages at face value.

There is definitely God the Son Jesus Christ and God the Father being coexistent distinct entities, but there is only one God, and they are both God. I do not have a great understanding of the details, but however that works, Oneness theology is not the explanation.

 

[Darron Steele]

DID say "Their Lord is my Lord: Jesus Christ. They serve Him following His teachings in Scripture every day of their lives, as do I. I believe that this takes precedence over their errors."

Perhaps you would tell us exactly what you mean?

I think that when I wrote that back in 2007, I was trying to say that in general, the people who adopt Oneness Pentecostalism are Christians. I was giving my biggest reason why, while making clear that I believe they are wrong.