Oneness Theology versus Trinity

[atestring]

Dkh,
I challenge you to get a Oneness Pentecostal and a Jehovah Witness in the same room. The fireworks will fly.
Do this and you will never think that Jehovah Witness and Oneness are alike.

Get a muslin and a Oneness while you are at it.

"No matter what you say" the similarity is not close.

 

[Kiffen]

What you're saying sounds sort of like monophysitism.

Nope, You make too many assumptions. I hold firmly to the Christology of Chalcedon.

I grew up in a town where the united Pentecostal Church is the largest church in that city. Though i am not Oneness, me and The Pastors son of that Church were friends and school mates while that church was little. We had many conversations. I NEVER heard anything close to denying the Diety of Jesus from him or any other Oneness. i have some disagreements with the UPC but that is not one of them

You need to read earlier posts. The UPC will affirm Jesus as God BUT their understanding of the Deity of Christ is a Modalist view which separates them from Historic Christianity. One of the great controversies that they seem to be fuzzy on is who Died on the Cross? I don't believe you will find any UPC person who will sing Charles Wesley's Hymn "AND CAN IT BE?" with it's orthodox phrase How can it be,That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the universal faith,...the universal faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance.(The Athanasian Creed)

 

[Kiffen]

Even Hanegraaf acknowledges that these people are saved "inspite of their theology"; though not "because of" it.

I like Hanegraaf but the opinion of one man and his Bible cannot override the Witness and Testimony of the Christological Church Councils.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:

I grew up in a town where the united Pentecostal Church is the largest church in that city. Though i am not Oneness, me and The Pastors son of that Church were friends and school mates while that church was little. We had many conversations. I NEVER heard anything close to denying the Diety of Jesus from him or any other Oneness. i have some disagreements with the UPC but that is not one of them

That's correct atestring! You will never hear a person of the UPC deny the "Deity of Christ."

As a matter of fact, they are probably the strongest believers of Jesus being God, in the flesh, than any group that I've ever heard of personally.

Col 2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Can't get any closer than that...

JESUS IS GOD! ...and that's a fact.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was a god." (New World Translation)

The Jehovah Witnesses believe (in a sense) in the deity of Christ. After all they do believe that he was a god. He was divine. They do say that he was "a god." They have a greater God and a lesser God.
Their perception of God is different than the Bible's teaching of who God is.

The same is true of Oneness and UPC. The denial of the Trinity is in fact the denial of the deity of Christ no matter what you say. You have redefined who God is, just as the J.W.'s have. You can claim him as deity, just as the Muslim's claim Allah as deity, but the God of the Oneness is as different from the Bible as is Allah. They are totally different. Both Muslim and Oneness claim their gods to be divine or deity; both serve gods that are not defined within the boundaries of the Bible.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]This is like comparing apples and oranges. Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims doctrines are a poor comparison to the UPC. Only your opinion and a poor one at that. Just more deception of facts.


The God of the Oneness is the one who died on the cross for the sins of humanity. His name is Jesus Christ! How much plainer can one get DHK?

BTW, I'm not in the least bit impressed by you using a small 'g' to make your opinion anymore effective.

MEE

 

[Eric B]

I like Hanegraaf but the opinion of one man and his Bible cannot override the Witness and Testimony of the Christological Church Councils.

But people will not be judged by those councils. Yes, they did take upon themselves that authority practically. But we as Protestants do not follow them completely. They too are to be subjected to scripture.

 

[Humblesmith]

A few points:

1. Modalism was declared a heresy and excommunicated from the early church.

2. Contrary to popular belief, the pre-nicene fathers had a rather clear understanding of the trinity. Tertullian and Gregory the Great even used the term "trinity" in the 200's.

3. Everyone that I've ever met who denied the trininty also taught some other heresy surrounding salvation. No wonder, for if you get God wrong, the issues will spill into other things also.

4. This has nothing to do with whether they are nice people, or whether they live moral lives, or how often they talk about Jesus. Many heretics are nice people and live moral lives from a human standpoint.

5. Make no mistake: when you're dealing with the nature of God and Christ, this is not a trivial matter.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
This is like comparing apples and oranges. Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims doctrines are a poor comparison to the UPC. Only your opinion and a poor one at that. Just more deception of facts.


The God of the Oneness is the one who died on the cross for the sins of humanity. His name is Jesus Christ! How much plainer can one get DHK?

BTW, I'm not in the least bit impressed by you using a small 'g' to make your opinion anymore effective.

MEE

It is not comparing apples to oranges. You fail to see my point. If God is not defined within the parameters of the Bible, your god, no matter how you define it is not deity. He might as well be Allah, Vishna, Krishna, or any other pagan god. The God of the Bible is the triune Godhead, three persons in one God, each person being co-equal one with the other and existing from all eternity, neither one of them having ever been created, and none of them being a "manifestation" of the other. They are three separate persons and yet one God. They make up the triune Godhead of whom we serve.

You serve another God, of whom you say is deity but is not, because he is not defined as God by the Bible, just as Allah is not defined as God by the Bible. Anyone can use, and does use the word god. That doesn't mean the person they refer to as god is the God of the Bible. You may as well be worshipping Baal. You are not worshiping Christ as deity. Your belief was laid to rest as heresy in the third century. Why bring it up now as a valid theology? It is not. And thus your definition of God is not. It is heresy.
DHK

 

[MEE]

The reason I don't see your point is that you don't have one. You have an opinion of which I don't agree. That's my right!

You don't believe me when I say that Jesus Christ is the God of the Bible. He died for humanity. There isn't a person, on this forum, that doesn't agree with that DHK. Why do you say I'm wrong?

My belief in "One God" wasn't laid to rest in the third century. The RCC tried and succeeded to many, but not to His Church. There is only "One God," not three!

You may have left the Catholic Church, but you failed to leave some of their doctrine behind.

Look it up!...since I can't post links on this BB.

Believe what you want, just don't say that the Oneness saints believe in some strange god! OK?


One God---&gt; three manifestations!

1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(KJV)

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

One God---&gt; three manifestations!

Heresy!
Has been heresy since the Apostolic Age and earlier. Was officially declared heresy in the 3rd century.
Still remains heresy today.
There is nothing new is your cult of heretical teaching that there are three manifestations of the same God, and the denial of the trinity, which is essensce is a denial of the deity of Christ. And that is a Christ that you do not know, for you do not know the God of the Bible--the triune Godhead.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:

One God---&gt; three manifestations!

Heresy!
Has been heresy since the Apostolic Age and earlier. Was officially declared heresy in the 3rd century.
Still remains heresy today.
There is nothing new is your cult of heretical teaching that there are three manifestations of the same God, and the denial of the trinity, which is essensce is a denial of the deity of Christ. And that is a Christ that you do not know, for you do not know the God of the Bible--the triune Godhead.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]It's not heresy! It's Bible. I refuse to believe what the RCC did to God's word...IN THE THIRD CENTURY. I don't belong to a cult and the Bible does teach that God was manifest in the flesh.

Your right, I don't know of a three person god. I'm still waiting for you to explain it to me.

One God---&gt; three manifestations! (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost)

1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(KJV)

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
It's not heresy! It's Bible. I refuse to believe what the RCC did to God's word...IN THE THIRD CENTURY. I don't belong to a cult and the Bible does teach that God was manifest in the flesh.

Your right, I don't know of a three person god. I'm still waiting for you to explain it to me.

One God---&gt; three manifestations! (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost)

1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(KJV)

MEE

Yes, it is heresy.
I suppose that because you fail to understand the physics governing how electricity works, that that would be "heresy" too, and you would make up some other "scientific religous definition for electricity. Do you deny everything that you don't understand. Do you understand everything about vehicles even though you know they work.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he didn't understand the wind--where it came from and where it went, and yet he called himself a teacher. He said he ought to know of these things (referring to the New Birth) So should you. But you don't.

For more information on the trinity check here:
Trinity

 

[atestring]

dkh,
i think your friend would call your argument that compares Oneness to Jehovah Witness a strawman argument

 

[DHK]

I don't know what friend you refer to atestring.
But there are not as many born again Christians in America as one would tend to think. However there are probably more than 90% of Americans that believe in God. Which god do they believe in? If God is not defined by the Bible then they believe in the wrong God, or their belief is misplaced. Either way it is wrong.

The Pharisees thought they believed in God. Their God, they said was the God of Abraham. Jesus told them otherwise, however. Here is what Jesus said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The God of Abraham? No! Their god was the devil himself. So is yours if you don't believe in the trinty; if you are not born again by the Spirit of God; if you are not saved; if you believe that baptism saves; if you believe in a false gospel, and not the gospel of the Bible.
You are in the same situation of the Pharisees who thought they believed in God, but didn't. They believed in a different god, whom they addressed as God.
DHK

 

[atestring]

Do you believe that if a person is baptized in Jesus Name that they are of the Devil. The book of Acts says mentions that people were baptized in the Name of Jesus.
Were they of the Devil?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by atestring:
Do you believe that if a person is baptized in Jesus Name that they are of the Devil. The book of Acts says mentions that people were baptized in the Name of Jesus.
Were they of the Devil?

Without a doubt, it is heresy! However, Christians tend to speak in hyperbole many times. Some professed Christians may believe heretical ideas at times. Can we say they are unbelievers and destined for Hell? That's a call we cannot easily make. It is a perogative reserved to omniscience God. There are some heresies, such as denying the deity of Christ, that tell us the person is an antichrist, a heretic and an unbeliever (I John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3; 2 John 7). On the other hand, the Word of Faith movement teaches heresy but I do think there are some genuine believers there.

 

[DHK]

"I baptize you in the name of Jesus, buried with him in the likeness of his death, and rising again in the likeness of his resurrection."

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, buried with him in the likeness of his death, and rising again in likeness of his resurrection."
--or some variation of the above.

If the name of Jesus refers to the "Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit," the triune Godhead, then I don't have a problem with it. If it heretically refers to a manifestation of God, and not the trinity, then I have a big problem with it.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by atestring:
Do you believe that if a person is baptized in Jesus Name that they are of the Devil. The book of Acts says mentions that people were baptized in the Name of Jesus.
Were they of the Devil?

Absolutely not! You won't find where anyone was baptized in any other name other than Jesus Christ or the Lord Jesus Christ, beginning with the NT Church, on the Day of Pentecost.

Of course we all know that it was changed by the RCC to using the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost....which I might add, are not His name.

The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus.

Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Of course we all know that it was changed by the RCC to using the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost....which I might add, are not His name.

I would admonish you not to make allegations without proof. Back your statement up with historical data.
And no "we don't all know"
I don't know. I believe what you said is false.
What is it. Oneness revisionsim?
Or don't you read your Bible?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:

I would admonish you not to make allegations without proof. Back your statement up with historical data.
And no "we don't all know"
I don't know. I believe what you said is false.
What is it. Oneness revisionsim?
Or don't you read your Bible?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
DHK

Proof? OK..go to google.com and type in Nicene Council 325 AD Water Baptism. Or, try your Brittanica Encyclopedia, The New International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, or The World Book Encyclopedia.

Or better yet, try finding water baptism using the titles F,S,and HG in the Bible.

DHK, it just ain't there!

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Or better yet, try finding water baptism using the titles F,S,and HG in the Bible.

DHK, it just ain't there!

MEE

What more proof do you want? I just quoted Mat.28:19,20 from the Bible. It is in every translation that I know of (except possibly yours). What do you use--the Oneness Only Translation. This was a command of Jesus: "Baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
So who shall I believe? God's Word. or you?
I think I'll stay with God's Word.
DHK