Oneness Theology versus Trinity

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
I have never heard any decent response from you concerning the baptism of Jesus MEE.
Jesus Christ, was being baptized. We don't deny his deity do we?
At the same time the the person of the Holy Spirit was descending upon Him in the form of a dove.
At the same time the person of the Father in Heaven was booming out his voice saying "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him."

How do you account for all three persons of the trinity present at the same time--each visible or accountable to the senses by all present.
DHK

I don't account for three persons of the trinity that were present. God isn't made-up of three persons.

The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord. Therefore; we have only one God.

At Jesus' baptism does it say that anyone saw three persons? No!...just one, Jesus Christ.

As I said before, if I could post the link that would explain this much better, then all could see God for what He really is..but I can't because the board has my hands tied.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

MEE, your explanation doesn’t make sense in light of the above Scripture. You are forcing your own presupposition upon the clear interpretation of Scripture. No, I don’t need a link to explain it to me. All I need is the Word of God and the proper understanding and interpretation. Furthermore, I have read and heard all the Oneness arguments and found them unconvincing in light of Scripture. People who try to explain away the Trinity are going into something beyond human comprehension. God has reserved some things unto Himself (Deut. 29:29). In general, Oneness adherents are theological naïve people with a limited knowledge and understanding of Scripture that they try to explain in human terms and experience. Some things are beyond human comprehension and explanation. Sadly enough, these dear folks are on dangerous ground.

Please consider:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[atestring]

Dkh ,
did you ever find a Jehovah Witness and a Oneness to put in the same room?
I would like to hear the arguments when you do.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by paidagogos:


MEE, your explanation doesn’t make sense in light of the above Scripture. You are forcing your own presupposition upon the clear interpretation of Scripture. No, I don’t need a link to explain it to me. All I need is the Word of God and the proper understanding and interpretation. Furthermore, I have read and heard all the Oneness arguments and found them unconvincing in light of Scripture. People who try to explain away the Trinity are going into something beyond human comprehension. God has reserved some things unto Himself (Deut. 29:29). In general, Oneness adherents are theological naïve people with a limited knowledge and understanding of Scripture that they try to explain in human terms and experience. Some things are beyond human comprehension and explanation. Sadly enough, these dear folks are on dangerous ground.

Let me ask you this question! If trinitarians can't explain their three person God, then how do you come to the conclusion that the doctrine of One God is incorrect?

BTW, I don't know how that you have decided that the Oneness saints are on dangerous ground. They believe in repentance, water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as was preached on the Day of Pentecost.

I'm sure Peter would approve. Don't ya think?

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Let me ask you this question! If trinitarians can't explain their three person God, then how do you come to the conclusion that the doctrine of One God is incorrect?

Mee, let me ask you this question? If you are using this message board to debate with us (i.e. the internet), can you explain to me how you can type such a message, and have it appear on my computer seconds later and over 2,000 miles away? Do you believe this happens? It does. Can you explain it, how it happens? I doubt it.
Why do you believe it, and yet cannot explain it?
Must you only believe the things that you can understand. You would be in a sorry state if that is your philosophy. I dare say you would be living without electricity if you put your philosophy into practice. You might not even have any running water, pasteurized milk, or a sewage system, all depending on your education. Can you explain the things around you? How much biology do you know? Do you know how your body functions? Whoops! I guess death is imminent.

You cannot understand the simple finite things of earth. Yet you declare you must understand an infinite God before you believe in Him. God himself declares that He is "past finding out." He is incomprehensible. But you must understand Him before you belief. Your statement is a blatant statement of unbelief. In essence you are like the atheist who simply says (and quite adamantly) I will not beiieve!
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:


You cannot understand the simple finite things of earth. Yet you declare you must understand an infinite God before you believe in Him. God himself declares that He is "past finding out." He is incomprehensible. But you must understand Him before you belief. Your statement is a blatant statement of unbelief. In essence you are like the atheist who simply says (and quite adamantly) I will not beiieve!
DHK

DHK, you seem to be getting off the topic. I said that if you can't explain your three person God then how do you know that my belief in the one God of heaven and earth is incorrect? You know that we are talking about the Godhead. Right?

I never said that I could explain everything about God and His ways. You seem to be adding to the things I say. Why?

Don't compare me to an atheist! I do believe in God, just not in a three person god.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
[QBDHK, you seem to be getting off the topic. I said that if you can't explain your three person God then how do you know that my belief in the one God of heaven and earth is incorrect? You know that we are talking about the Godhead. Right?

I never said that I could explain everything about God and His ways. You seem to be adding to the things I say. Why?

Don't compare me to an atheist! I do believe in God, just not in a three person god.
I am not off topic at all.
MEE

[/QB]

I am not off topic at all. Jesus used exactly the same reasoning with Nicodemus.

John 3:7-8 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus said to Nicodemus "you must be born again (3:3,5). Nicodemus didn't understand. It was as if he couldn't comprehend the things that he could not see or touch with his senses, and that is how Jesus answers him.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he was also unable to understand about simple earthly things like the wind. Thus spiritual matters like the New Birth he would have to believe by faith. Salvation is by faith. And belief in the triune Godhead is by faith. If you try by your human comprehension to understand the infinite triune Godhead, the God of the Bible you will only fail.

I do not add to what you say or put words in your mouth. You have consistently said throughout this and other threads that you cannot understand how there can be three persons in one God, and therefore will not believe. You also have borne false witness on this board by continuously accusing trinitarians of believing in three gods. I believe that if you continue in this kind of derogatory accusatory slander that some kind of discipline is needed. You know that it isn't true.
We all believe that there is only one God. Why falsely accuse those who believe in the trinity of believing otherwise?

Back to the subject. You still havent' answered my original question from my previous post. Did the voice from Heaven come from a "person"? Was that person God the Father? Is God the Father a person?
Where did the voice come from at the event of the baptism of Jesus? Whose voice was it?
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:

I believe that if you continue in this kind of derogatory accusatory slander that some kind of discipline is needed.

DHK

You of all the people are threating me because of what you say is "derogatory accusatory slander?" After all of the insults and name calling that you have done to me in the last four and a half years.

What's the matter DHK, are you backed in a corner? I have answered your questions, with scripture. It's just that you can't accept what I say or what the Bible reveals.

I won't give you a chance to remove me from this BB. Your power, over me, has now been removed.

I am asking the owners of the BB to remove my name!

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

I believe that if you continue in this kind of derogatory accusatory slander that some kind of discipline is needed.

DHK

You of all the people are threating me because of what you say is "derogatory accusatory slander?" After all of the insults and name calling that you have done to me in the last four and a half years.

What's the matter DHK, are you backed in a corner? I have answered your questions, with scripture. It's just that you can't accept what I say or what the Bible reveals.

I won't give you a chance to remove me from this BB. Your power, over me, has now been removed.

I am asking the owners of the BB to remove my name!

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]Do as you wish. I only point out to you that you refer to us as believing in three in gods when you know that is not true. Why?

Better yet, I ask for the third time (and you avoid it stil):

Back to the subject. You still havent' answered my original question from my previous post. Did the voice from Heaven come from a "person"? Was that person God the Father? Is God the Father a person?
Where did the voice come from at the event of the baptism of Jesus? Whose voice was it?

DHK

 

[atestring]

If ask,
I believe in the Trinity.
Can I prove that the Trinity is correct? No
Can I explain the trinity ( without using anologies such as eggs, water, etc) but stating with scripture? No
Can I prove that oneness are wrong. No

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
If ask,
I believe in the Trinity.
Can I prove that the Trinity is correct? No

If you couldn't prove it from the Bible, then both Catholics and Protestants all throughout the ages wouldn't believe it. Of course it can be proven.
There is only one God. All Christians believe that. That is the common ground on which we stand.
Secondly who is it in the Bible that claims to be God:
No one doubts that there is God the Father whom we address in the Lord's Prayer: "Our Father who art in Heaven."
Next: Does anyone doubt the deity of Christ, who many times claimed his own deity, as well as the Apostles affirming that He was God come in the flesh (John 1:1, 14) The Word was God, and was made flesh and dwelt among us.
Next the Holy Spirit. In Acts five, when Peter addresses Ananias he tells him in one statement that he has lied to the Holy Spirit, and in the very next statement that he has lied unto God. He has stated that the Holy Spirit is God. \
There are claims then, throughout Scripture, that all three persons are God, and yet we believe only in one God. Thus there must be three personss in one God.

In Christ's baptism there were three persons present, and all at the same time. Christ was there in physical form. The Holy Spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove, and a voice came from the Father out of Heaven saying "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him." Three persons, and yet one God.

The trinity is stated clearly in 1John 5:7
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Yes, it can be proved from Scripture.

Can I explain the trinity ( without using anologies such as eggs, water, etc) but stating with scripture? No

Can a finite mind understand an infinite God? No. He never will be able to. What you ask here is inpossible. You would be in a sorry state of affairs if you only used those things that you could understand. Do you understand completely the workings of the internet? If not, then why do you use it?

Can I prove that oneness are wrong. No

Then that is your lack of knowledge, and your fault for not studying their doctrine.
Baptismal regeneration is heresy.
The requirement of speaking in tongues to be saved is heresy.
A denial of the deity of Christ, resulting from a denial of the trinity is heresy.
A denial of the trinity is heresy.
A belief in "only Oneness people can be saved is heresy."
DHK

 

[atestring]

dkh,
I do not believe that Speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation although I believe in speaking in tongues. I am not sure that they all believe that people that have not spoken in tongues are not saved.
I do not believe that they do not believe in the diety of Jesus.
Since (as you say) our finite mind cannot understand a infinite God that I can call what they believe heresy.
I believe that all who call oupon the name of the Lord our God can be saved. I do not agreee with you that believing that they can be saved is heresy. I am not saying that I 100% agree with them. I disagree with Presbryterians and Episcopals about issues but I do not say that they are heretics or cultish or not saved.
I certainly do not believe that If I consider people saved that I do not agree with on every point would be heresy. Do you?
You can have a different opinion if you choose. But I don't not have to agree with you.
But since you disagree with me that doesn't that mean that I am not saved.
Does the Bible say: "Whosoever shall callupon the Name of dkh shall be saved"?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
dkh,
I do not believe that Speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation although I believe in speaking in tongues. I am not sure that they all believe that people that have not spoken in tongues are not saved.

This has nothing to do with whether or not a person has spoken in tongues. There are people who speak in tongues that post on this board who have a very clear testimony of salvation. They also believe the fundamentals of the faith: the trinity, the deity of Christ, salvation through grace by faith, etc. All of the above doctrines, the Oneness people deny. That puts them in the category of a cult. It has nothing to do with tongues, per se. It has to do with the heresy that they do believe in relation to Christ, God, and salvation.

I do not believe that they do not believe in the diety of Jesus.

Then you don't understand Oneness doctrine and should study it further. It is quite evident that if you don't believe in the trinity, you don't believe in the deity of Christ, at least not the Christ of the Bible. For the Christ that you are worshiping is a different Christ, not the Christ of the triune Godhead.

Since (as you say) our finite mind cannot understand a infinite God that I can call what they believe heresy.

It is a simple matter of faith and belief. This line of theirs is an excuse for unbelief. "If I can't understand it (i.e., the trinity), then I won't believe it." Hwo ludicrous! There are many things in the Bible that I don't understand and yet accept by faith as true, simply because that is what the Bible teaches.

I believe that all who call oupon the name of the Lord our God can be saved. I do not agreee with you that believing that they can be saved is heresy. I am not saying that I 100% agree with them.

Does your statement still hold true if the name of the god is Allah? Of course not. But the name of the Oneness god is equal to Allah or any other false god, because it is not the triune God of the Bible. Thus whosoever calls on the Oneness God cannot be saved.

I disagree with Presbryterians and Episcopals about issues but I do not say that they are heretics or cultish or not saved.
I certainly do not believe that If I consider people saved that I do not agree with on every point would be heresy. Do you?

As a whole the Presbyterians and Episcopalians do not deny the fundamentals of the faith, unless you are referring to the ones that have gone liberal and do deny the fundamentals of the faith (of which there are now a few).

You can have a different opinion if you choose. But I don't not have to agree with you.
But since you disagree with me that doesn't that mean that I am not saved.

My standard is not my opinion. My opinion nor yours does not count. My standard is the Word of God. All that I say I base on the Word of God. It is the only standard by which I base what I say.

Does the Bible say: "Whosoever shall callupon the Name of dkh shall be saved"?

No. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Provided the Lord, is the Lord Jesus Christ defined within the parameters of the Bible, and not any cult or any other religion.
DHK

 

[atestring]

dkh,
You have a hatred that goes beyond scripture when it comes to Pentecostals.
There must have been a hurt in your life or a disappointment or something.
Could you share this hurt so that some of us can understand your emotional hatred of Pentecostals.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
dkh,
You have a hatred that goes beyond scripture when it comes to Pentecostals.

Are you playing Freud? Or are you claiming to be God? Either way you are being judgemental far beyond what the rules allow. Your false accusation is defamatory and an apology would be in order.

Is it because you do not know Scripture that you do not know how to answer me, and resort to name-calling. If this is how you act in real life I pity you. If what I said is contrarty to Scripture then point it out.
If it is contrary to Oneness belief, go to a book on Oneness and prove it to me. You do know how to use a search enging don't you? There is plenty of information out there to verify what I have said.

There must have been a hurt in your life or a disappointment or something.

OK, Mr. Psychoanalyst, you have gone far enough with your false allegations and slander. As I have said I use Scripture as my standard and point out heresy according to the truth of the Word of God. Should heresy be allowed to stand unchallenged? You are naive if you say yes. "Reprove, rebuke, with all longsuffering and patience." My patience is running out more with you and your false allegations than with the Oneness Pentecostals.

Could you share this hurt so that some of us can understand your emotional hatred of Pentecostals.

Perrhapst my hurt is that you, Atestring, seem to revel in defaming others. Or perhaps you love to engage in defending heretics. Perhaps you are the wold in sheep's clothing. Are you going to come clean? Do you have a reason for trying to justify the doctrine of heretical cults?
DHK

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by atestring:
dkh,
You have a hatred that goes beyond scripture when it comes to Pentecostals.
There must have been a hurt in your life or a disappointment or something.
Could you share this hurt so that some of us can understand your emotional hatred of Pentecostals.

You seem to think Oneness and Pentecostalism are the same thing. They are not! There are Trinitarian Pentecostals; that is not what this thread is about.

The core of heresy is error regarding the very nature of God and/or Christ and/or the HS. If you say any of these, you are outside historic Christianity (there are more but this is just a sample of the worst ones):
1. The HS is not a Person
2. Denying the deity of Christ
3. God has a body (Mormons)
3. Making God, Jesus and the HS all one and the same Person.

No. 4 is what Oneness followers believe. This has been explained over and over on several threads here.

Just because we cannot fully explain the Trinity does not mean it is okay to deny it. Oneness followers denounce the Trinity very vocally. They believe that when Jesus said "My Father" he was talking about (and to) Himself. Does that sound biblical to you? Is Jesus the Holy Spirit? Is God the FAther the same as God the Son? This is very deep error and attacks the nature of God.

 

[atestring]

dkh,
I must have struck a nerve.
Your emotions came out again.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
dkh,
You have a hatred that goes beyond scripture when it comes to Pentecostals.
There must have been a hurt in your life or a disappointment or something.
Could you share this hurt so that some of us can understand your emotional hatred of Pentecostals.

You seem to think Oneness and Pentecostalism are the same thing. They are not! There are Trinitarian Pentecostals; that is not what this thread is about.

The core of heresy is error regarding the very nature of God and/or Christ and/or the HS. If you say any of these, you are outside historic Christianity (there are more but this is just a sample of the worst ones):
1. The HS is not a Person
2. Denying the deity of Christ
3. God has a body (Mormons)
3. Making God, Jesus and the HS all one and the same Person.

No. 4 is what Oneness followers believe. This has been explained over and over on several threads here.

Just because we cannot fully explain the Trinity does not mean it is okay to deny it. Oneness followers denounce the Trinity very vocally. They believe that when Jesus said "My Father" he was talking about (and to) Himself. Does that sound biblical to you? Is Jesus the Holy Spirit? Is God the FAther the same as God the Son? This is very deep error and attacks the nature of God. </font>[/QUOTE]If a Oneness said:" just because we cannot fully understand the Oneness of God does not mean it s okay to deny it."
How would you answer them?
Would you say their argument was a strawman argument?

 

[Marcia]

Posted by atestring:
If a Oneness said:" just because we cannot fully understand the Oneness of God does not mean it s okay to deny it."
How would you answer them?
Would you say their argument was a strawman argument?

I would say I do not deny the Oneness of God. God is one. There is one God, but 3 Persons exist in the Godhead.

The Bible clearly teaches this, and several passages have been pointed out in this and other threads to show this, plus I have posted links and links and links on this topic with refutations of the Oneness position on many threads.

Oneness people might tell me I am saying there are 3 gods or I am talking nonsense, but I can't help their response. If they just want to argue without looking at the explanations, then so be it.

Either one accepts the Trinitarian view of God or one does not. There is no in-between on this.

 

[Marcia]

Atestring, you talk about DHK's emotions, but you still have not forgotten the straw man argument thing, have you? Do you hold grudges?

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Atestring, you talk about DHK's emotions, but you still have not forgotten the straw man argument thing, have you? Do you hold grudges?

Marcia,
have you ever read
Proverbs 26:17 ????????