Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[ONENESS]

ATTN :MODS

Could you lock this thread from all other peopel besides lorelie and my self. I dont want to get to many questions comeing in at once. I have alot to get done and dont want the discussion to get away from me.

Thanks alot

Brian

And if anyone gets here b4 the mods, please respect my request not to post.

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, maybe not with us. But God was On Earh and In heaven at the Same time.

So God as a Man could testify and God as the Eternal Spirit could testify.

Our Body and Spirit cannot be in more than one place at one time.

So its quite simple to figure out.

God bless.

Oneness,

Can you add?

Does one being in two different places actually equal two separate beings?

Is the "God as man" different then the "God as the Eternal Spirit"? Are you now suggesting they are two Gods?

There were at least TWO witnesses needed. One being, in no matter how many places is still ONE being and therefore can only be counted as ONE witness.

Do you have any scripture to back up this statement? Where does the Bible suggest such a thing?

Jesus clearly stated that there were two witnesses. Though Jesus never clearly stated that he WAS the Father, you want me to believe that to be true. Then in defense of that belief, you separate Jesus the man from the God the Eternal Spirit. Which is it? Are they the same or different? You CAN'T have it both ways.

As for other answers, I will humor you in a moment. Just let me remind you, that I have awaited this answer for several months! This answer that you claim is so easy is the first actual attempt you have ever made to address this question. And in doing so, you make a mockery of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

There were at least TWO witnesses needed. One being, in no matter how many places is still ONE being and therefore can only be counted as ONE witness.

So what you are saying is that God is not actually one Like One is One. But you are saying that God is seperate as seperate beings. You are so confuseing.

Does one being in two different places actually equal two separate beings?
Does one being in two different places actually equal two separate beings?

Is the "God as man" different then the "God as the Eternal Spirit"? Are you now suggesting they are two Gods?

Now isnt that what you believe. Jesus had two natures one as man and the other as God. Both God and Man can testify. The Man Christ Jesus, and the eternal Spirit of God.

There were at least TWO witnesses needed. One being, in no matter how many places is still ONE being and therefore can only be counted as ONE witness.

Now Im confused. First you say that God is seperated into persons, and now you are saying he is one being. Now if Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same God that would cause them to be one witness as well. Not two, three or Four.

Something Lorelie you need to take more than face value. SOmethings take a little bit of studying to understand. And the God head is one of those things.

Though Jesus never clearly stated that he WAS the Father,

WEll what does the bible say?

</font>

• Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.</font>
• John 10:22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
  23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
  24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
  25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
  26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
  28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
  29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
  30 I and my Father are one.
  31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
  32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
  33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
  The Jews were not going to stone him b/c he made himself out to be the 2nd person in the trinity. They were going to stone him b/c he made himself out to be God.
  
  The Jews were almost right when they said "we stone you b/c you are a man that makest thouself to be god" When all alont it was God who had made himself man.</font>
• John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
  6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
  8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
  9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
  
  Jesus is the Father incarnate. The "SON" is IS the Father in the flesh.</font>

Then in defense of that belief, you separate Jesus the man from the God the Eternal Spirit. Which is it? Are they the same or different? You CAN'T have it both ways

There is a diffrence. The eternal Spirit that in dwells the Son is all knowing. But as a man and with the mind of a man, The "Son" did not know all things. He wept, slept, cryed, grew, moaned. DOes the Eternal Spirit of God do these things? NO.

Even though the flesh and the Spirit have diffrent qualites, they are still the same person. No seperation has to be made for the two. The only thing that is needed is an understanding of what the flesh and the eternal spirit are capable of doing.

As for other answers, I will humor you in a moment. Just let me remind you, that I have awaited this answer for several months! This answer that you claim is so easy is the first actual attempt you have ever made to address this question. And in doing so, you make a mockery of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

L, Im sorry im not all knowing like you but im getting there. I told you there are certain things that i need to study. And when I study and pray about something and fill comfortable about it I will post it. Sorry it took so long. And my other excuse is, I probably just got to posting something else and forgot about it.

[ September 16, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Hi Brian -

I suspect that people would honor your request. Without a PM or e-mail system being established this task would be quite difficult.

BTW, have you and Lorelei ever debated this issue before?

J/K

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
And please tell me why you follow a doctrine that was established by the Catholic Church?

I study no man's doctrine. I seek the Word of God and it alone for everything that I believe. I would ask you why you so blindly follow your churches doctrine when there are scriptures that blatantly profess otherwise?

Whenever we point out scriptures that are contrary to your beliefs you run and cry and say "I don't know." Yet you believe your doctrine anyway.

I do the opposite. I believe the Bible first.

When have I ever tried to show you this doctrine is true using anything other then the Word of God? Think about it. Trying to argue from this standpoint is just another ploy to take the focus off of the Word of God.

Let us stick to the Bible, shall we?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

I study no man's doctrine. I seek the Word of God and it alone for everything that I believe. I would ask you why you so blindly follow your churches doctrine when there are scriptures that blatantly profess otherwise?

You study no mans doctrine? And that is why I would say you are so blindly confused.

There is a doctrine that we need to follow and that is the Apostles Doctrine.

(Acts 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.)

And with out that doctrine We are lost.

I would ask you why you so blindly follow your churches doctrine when there are scriptures that blatantly profess otherwise?

Maybe the way you interpret scripture profess other wise. I dont just follow my churches doctrine. The Doctrine my church preaches is the same doctrine it is commissioned to preach by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that is know as the Apostles Doctrine.

We were told to preach repentance and remission of sins in His name. We were told to preach the holy Ghost. We do that. We preach the same doctrine the apostles taught over 2000 years ago.

We did not change the name of God, We did not repeat what jesus said to do. WE FULFILLED IT

When we baptize with the name of Jesus. We are baptizing in the one Name that We were told to baptize in. We are baptizing in the Name of The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost when We say Jesus.

B/c In Jesus dwells all ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Whenever we point out scriptures that are contrary to your beliefs you run and cry and say "I don't know." Yet you believe your doctrine anyway.

B/c I know that there is a deeper explination to some things than "take it at face value" Would you rather me take your word for it? When I dont take your word for it I am able to go to the scripture and find the Truths that lie there. I'm not intrested in what you feel, say, believe, or interpret. I am intrested in what the bible says.

And when i Cry "I DONT KNOW" I have the oppurtunity to run to the scriptures and see what the scriptures have to say. Instead of relying on what I have been taught and relying on my own understandings. I dont just stop at my interpretation though. I pray about it and sometimes i fast about it(which is something obvisouly you need to try) then i get others views on it and in the end I am sure and grounded in what I believe.

I do the opposite. I believe the Bible first.

No you rely on your own understanding first.

When have I ever tried to show you this doctrine is true using anything other then the Word of God? Think about it. Trying to argue from this standpoint is just another ploy to take the focus off of the Word of God.

Lorelie, you never have used anything other b/c you are grounded in your on views of what the bible is saying. I am not saying that is wrong but we all need to study somethings out farther.

And the only thing you have really showed me is that you dont need a man of God in your life, you dont need a church, and you dont need a mentor. The only thing you need is what you believe the Word of God says.

On the other hand, I can say I understand where you are comeing from. I understand how you might think there are three persons. I understand why you think you should baptize with the titles father, son, and holy ghost.

But indepth study, and revelation has proven other wise. I pray about stuff I am unsure of, I even fast about things I am unsure of. Im not boasting when i say that, But i said that to say this. When I do those things to show God how hungary I am, He takes the time to confirm it and reveal it to me. And not once has he ever revealed a trinity to me.

Lets stick to the bible. Not your understanding shall we?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Hi Brian -

I suspect that people would honor your request. Without a PM or e-mail system being established this task would be quite difficult.

BTW, have you and Lorelei ever debated this issue before?

J/K

Never

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

Please feel free to show me at any time where someone was baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Why do you keep asking the same questions? How many pages did that thread with this topic go?

In the end we proved that you could not demonstrate anyone actually being baptized in your method either.

"In the name of" means by whose authority one is baptizing in. No where does it ever state what anyone said when someone was baptized. There is no "sample" baptism, just statements that people were baptized.

So again, I am accused of not answering, when in fact I have addressed this several times.

However, let us focus on the actual name aspect. Is Jesus actually the name of the Father and the Spirit? That is the focus.

So where does the Bible say that Jesus is the Father? Where does the Bible say that the Father is a "manifestation" of God?

Before you begin to say that Jesus is one with the Father means the same thing, let me remind you that Jesus also prayed that we would be one with Him too. Surely you don't suggest that we will Be God???

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

Why do you keep asking the same questions? How many pages did that thread with this topic go?

B/c these are the questions that "from a trintarians view" cannot be answered.

In the end we proved that you could not demonstrate anyone actually being baptized in your method either.

And I have shown you how Acts 8 is exactly what you are looking for but you refuse to accept it.

"In the name of" means by whose authority one is baptizing in. No where does it ever state what anyone said when someone was baptized. There is no "sample" baptism, just statements that people were baptized.

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

You are exactly right "In the Name Does mean "athority" But to exercize that athority we must use the proper name.

Being baptized is no diffrent than praying. Being baptized is no diffrent that casting out devils. I would hate to see someone try to cast out a devil and say, "I rebuke you in his Name" Or "I rebuke you in the Name of the F,S,and HG."

Where is the athority in that? But when we say the Name of Jesus. When we use that Name by faith things begin to happen in the Spirit rhelm.
(its not a magic formula, we must have faith Acts 3:16)

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Hebrews 1:4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

And I could go on and on showing you how the Name is important.

However, let us focus on the actual name aspect. Is Jesus actually the name of the Father and the Spirit? That is the focus.

Yes.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Which Lord is this talking about? How many Lords do we have? Ephs 4:5 gives us the answer. There is only one. Is the father not Lord, Is Jesus not Lord, Is the Holy Spirit not Lord? If you say yes to that you have to come to the understanding that these are infact the same person. If you have three seperate persons you have three seperat lords.

How many Spirits are there? Most trinitarians believe that John 4:24 is speaking of the Father. John 4:24 God is a Spirit.

Most trinitarians believe that Gens 1:2 referrs to the HOly Spirit. Gen 1:2...the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters

Romans 8:9 tells us without the Spirit of Christ we are none of his.

From a trinitarians P.O.V. you now have three seperate Spirits. The Father is a Spirit, the Son is a Spirit and The holy Spirit is a Spirit.

But the bible plainly teaches there is only One Spirit Eph 4:4

Jesus said in John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

We know that the comforter is the HOly Spirit. John 14:26.

Jesus said that he would pray that the father would give them another comforter(which is the holy spirit) who the world cannot see. But Jesus told them that they could see him b/c that same comforter was dwelling with them. Who was dwelling with them? Jesus was.

We know that Jesus is that comforter. Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you"

And we know that Jesus is the Father b/c Eph 4:6 tells us there is One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Who is in us today? Is it not the Holy Spirit? We see here how the Father is the Holy Spirit. I have just shown you how Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and If Jesus is the HOly Spirit that means the Father is Jesus.

Mee asked a wonderful question. I have never thought or heard of it before but who is the Father of Jesus? Is it the Father or is it the Holy Spirit?

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The one who causes the conception is the Father, So who is the Father of the Baby Jesus? Is it the Father or is it the Holy Spirit?

So where does the Bible say that Jesus is the Father? Where does the Bible say that the Father is a "manifestation" of God?

1 Timothy 3:16 tells us that God was manifested in the Flesh.

John 14 tells us that Jesus will manifest himself through the Holy Spirit.

It all ties up to Col 2:9 that in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.+

Before you begin to say that Jesus is one with the Father means the same thing, let me remind you that Jesus also prayed that we would be one with Him too. Surely you don't suggest that we will Be God???

What I am saying is that Jesus is the exact same person as God the Father.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
But for right now, you still have not told me who the trinity was speaking to. Who was it? Or are you just frustrated b/c your theory is not backed up by the bible?

I had to go all the way back to Page 2 of this thread to find where I first answered this question. The only frustration comes from the fact that I know that your attempt to keep addressing this question at me is merely an attempt to try to hide the fact that you have no idea what Gen 1:26 means. Since that verse scares you so much, you try to turn it around so the focus is no longer on you and your doctrine's inability to be in total unity with the Word of God.

Originally posted by Lorelei:
When you read the text and see how God revealed himself beginning with even Genesis, you don't have to say "it could be", you don't have to speculate scripture away.

We see how the writers that were inspired by God often used the word God to represent the Father when speaking within the trinity.

Example: Eph 6:23 "Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

It reads beautifully and in unison with the rest of scripture to realize that God the Father was speaking within the trinity, not outside of it.

This is the only way one can reconcile Gen 1:26 with Gen 1:27. Both are true statements without any "It could be's."

Now in order for you to rebut this statement you have to address the post of mine you have completely ignored.

Originally posted by Lorelei:
To comment on such phrases as: God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

When using and to separate such statements one must ask themself, is it separating different names or characteristics?

It can be used properly if separating characteristics.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Let me introduce you to John, my friend and collegue.

However, we don't separate His name with a characteristic.

My friend John and the police man

This would be properly stated

My friend John, the police man

It just doesn't make sense to use the word and in front of the. I believe you will be hard pressed to find anyone who truly speaks this way.

You also don't use it to separate a name from the same name.

John Doe is not introducds as:

My friend John and Doe.

So, let us look at this phrase again:

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Which words are titles and which are descriptive?

You stated:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
This is not a seperation of two people in the God head. It seperate attributes giveing to one God.

In other words he is saying that God is both the Father and the lord Jesus

However throughout our conversations you keep telling us that God's name is now Jesus. So which is the name and which is the attribute?

Let us look at the phrase again:

I would like to introduce you to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have two names: God and Jesus Christ
You have two descriptions: Father and Lord.

Your analogy simply doesn't work unless you declare either God or Jesus Christ as nothing other then a description.

You have already determined God to be the main title in this statement:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
In other words he is saying that God is both the Father and the lord Jesus

So, what is the name of God? Is it God, or is it Jesus? If it is Jesus, why did you determine Jesus to be merely a "seperate attributes giveing to one God"?

Now let us look at one quote directly from Paul:

Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Here we have Jesus Christ listed first and then God the Father. Within this sentence it would be impossible to proclaim that one of the two is merely an attribute of the other. For one has died, and the other has raised him from the dead. Attributes can not take such actions now can they?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]I answered yours AGAIN. I even gave a demonstration how the word God was often used in this way when speaking within the trinity.

In order for you to say that isn't true, you had to demote Jesus from God's name to merely and attribute.

And still, you have no answer of your own.

So do tell, what does Genesis 1:26 mean?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

I had to go all the way back to Page 2 of this thread to find where I first answered this question. The only frustration comes from the fact that I know that your attempt to keep addressing this question at me is merely an attempt to try to hide the fact that you have no idea what Gen 1:26 means. Since that verse scares you so much, you try to turn it around so the focus is no longer on you and your doctrine's inability to be in total unity with the Word of God.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lorelei:
When you read the text and see how God revealed himself beginning with even Genesis, you don't have to say "it could be", you don't have to speculate scripture away.

We see how the writers that were inspired by God often used the word God to represent the Father when speaking within the trinity.

Example: Eph 6:23 "Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

It reads beautifully and in unison with the rest of scripture to realize that God the Father was speaking within the trinity, not outside of it.

This is the only way one can reconcile Gen 1:26 with Gen 1:27. Both are true statements without any "It could be's."

</font>[/QUOTE]I did not know if you wanted me to say anything about this. Everytime you say something does not mean that I am going to rebut it.

you don't have to say "it could be", you don't have to speculate scripture away.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

We are not going to understand everything about God. We want always understand; and there is no way for our minds to comprehend how great our God is.

As a trinitarian you say there is no way to understand Godhead.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We can understand the Godhead by the things that he made. Look at us for example. We are his image creation. He made us in his image. Gen 1:27. How many persons do we consist of? Although we have many attributes, titles, and offices we are still one Person with on Name.

We see how the writers that were inspired by God often used the word God to represent the Father when speaking within the trinity.

Example: Eph 6:23 "Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

It reads beautifully and in unison with the rest of scripture to realize that God the Father was speaking within the trinity, not outside of it.

Now when we do this we face problems like this
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Now we have to seperate God and the Father? No they are the exact same person. Just as The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. One God diffrent titles.

However throughout our conversations you keep telling us that God's name is now Jesus. So which is the name and which is the attribute?

Jesus is a Name and Lord would be an attribute

For one has died, and the other has raised him from the dead. Attributes can not take such actions now can they?

Well Lorelie, from John 2:19 we know that Jesus Raised himself from the dead

so your analogy falls short.

So, what is the name of God? Is it God, or is it Jesus? If it is Jesus, why did you determine Jesus to be merely a "seperate attributes giveing to one God"?[/

Jesus is the Name of God. The Name that God holds is also an attribute. Just b/c its a name does not invalidate it from being an attribut.

In other words, my Name is one of my attributes.

So do tell, what does Genesis 1:26 mean?

Again, I dont know, but I do know that it does not mean a trinity

 

[ONENESS]

Hey clint, just sent you an email letting you know you can open this back up. When is Lorelie supposed to be back? and by the way,

What is a Lorelie and a Chemitz

Just curious to know what those names mean?

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Brian - the topic was never closed.

Chemnitz had a thread on his new screen name (he used to be "Godmetal") but I can't locate it at the moment.

Lorelei will be back soon, I'm sure. She has at least one youngster that I know of and is probably just busy.

 

[ONENESS]

Lorelie, where you be??????/

 

[Lorelei]

Sorry, I got back last week from the surgery (That went really well) but this is the first opportunity I have had to spend any time here.

It will take me a little while to catch up, so be patient. We also have appointments all week, so my time will still be somewhat limited.


I shouldn't have answered all those questions at once, but I will deal with that mistake later. I didn't realize you were limiting this to just our discussion, so I figured someone else would have picked up where I left off.

I will sort of start over, I will pick one response at a time then discuss it. We get nowhere when we are covering too many points at once, especially since my time is limited.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
No. The Eternal Spirit of God and the Flesh of God are two witnesses. The term "Son" referrs to humanity. So you have the "Man" and you have the "Spirit". Two witnesses.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
But God was On Earh and In heaven at the Same time.

So God as a Man could testify and God as the Eternal Spirit could testify.

Our Body and Spirit cannot be in more than one place at one time.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Jesus had two natures one as man and the other as God. Both God and Man can testify. The Man Christ Jesus, and the eternal Spirit of God.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Even though the flesh and the Spirit have diffrent qualites, they are still the same person. No seperation has to be made for the two. The only thing that is needed is an understanding of what the flesh and the eternal spirit are capable of doing.

Before I can respond, I need to understand exactly what you are saying here. Could you please explain which of these believe, or in one statement tell me how these explanations work together?

Is the Father and Son counted as two or one?

In the first response you say the humanity (MAN) and the Spirit are the two witnesses.

In the second you go a step further and add that it was because they were not just Man and Spirit but because they were in two different places at the same time.

In the third statement you say that it is the two natures of Jesus, one as man, the other as God. Do you really refer to this as a nature or would manifestation be more accurate? Does God have more then one nature? I guess I need a defintion of nature.

In the last statement you say that it is different qualities that separate them, but they are still the same. Now how does this play into the above explanations? Our flesh and spirit have different qualities too, do they not?

You also state that no separation is needed, yet in order to be two witnesses there is some separation needed or the answer is one, not two.

So, exactly how do you claim that they are two witnesses?

~Lorelei

[ September 23, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
No. The Eternal Spirit of God and the Flesh of God are two witnesses. The term "Son" referrs to humanity. So you have the "Man" and you have the "Spirit". Two witnesses.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
But God was On Earh and In heaven at the Same time.

So God as a Man could testify and God as the Eternal Spirit could testify.

Our Body and Spirit cannot be in more than one place at one time.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Jesus had two natures one as man and the other as God. Both God and Man can testify. The Man Christ Jesus, and the eternal Spirit of God.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Even though the flesh and the Spirit have diffrent qualites, they are still the same person. No seperation has to be made for the two. The only thing that is needed is an understanding of what the flesh and the eternal spirit are capable of doing.

Before I can respond, I need to understand exactly what you are saying here. Could you please explain which of these believe, or in one statement tell me how these explanations work together?

Is the Father and Son counted as two or one?

In the first response you say the humanity (MAN) and the Spirit are the two witnesses.

In the second you go a step further and add that it was because they were not just Man and Spirit but because they were in two different places at the same time.

In the third statement you say that it is the two natures of Jesus, one as man, the other as God. Do you really refer to this as a nature or would manifestation be more accurate? Does God have more then one nature? I guess I need a defintion of nature.

In the last statement you say that it is different qualities that separate them, but they are still the same. Now how does this play into the above explanations? Our flesh and spirit have different qualities too, do they not?

You also state that no separation is needed, yet in order to be two witnesses there is some separation needed or the answer is one, not two.

So, exactly how do you claim that they are two witnesses?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]The "Son" of God was both God and Man. Do you agree?

God is a Spirit John 4:24, That Spirit of God can be in all places at all times. Psalm 139:8

We know the Son of God to have both human and Godly Natures. God is now in heaven and God is now walking on Earth as a man.

We know the term "Son" referrs to the Humanity. The Son had every quality of a Man save sin.

God is now in heaven as a Spirit and he is also on Earth as a man. He is still the exact same God.

Thus makeing it possible to have two witnesses.
We have the "Son" of God as one Witness on Earth and we have the Spirit in Heaven as the 2nd Witness.

Just b/c He was A Spirit in heaven, and a man on earth does not require a seperation of Persons. Its just a diffrent relationship, or a diffrent manifestation.

If there are three seperate persons in the God head, we would have three seperate witness, wouldent you agree? So what happened to the third person?

Did that help out any?

[ September 23, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The "Son" of God was both God and Man. Do you agree?

Not exactly.

Jesus was both God and man, but the Son existed before he became man. Therefore, he is more than just a human manifestation of the Father, for he was with the Father in the beginning.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
NIV

Originally posted by ONENESS:
God is a Spirit John 4:24, That Spirit of God can be in all places at all times. Psalm 139:8

No argument there.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
We know the Son of God to have both human and Godly Natures. God is now in heaven and God is now walking on Earth as a man.

I thought you believed that the Son of God was just the flesh of the Father.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
He did not come down as a seperate Person but he came down and revealed him self through the flesh, which is called the Son of God.

So is it the flesh that is the Son of God and the Spirit that is the Father, or does the Flesh (SON) have both flesh and a separate Spirit from the Father?

Originally posted by ONENESS:

We know the term "Son" referrs to the Humanity.

No we don't know this. This is a false statement and you will find no verses that support this.

The Son shared glory in the beginning. The Son is separate from the Father. The Son did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Son had every quality of a Man save sin.

Agree, but only when the Son was here on earth as man.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
God is now in heaven as a Spirit and he is also on Earth as a man. He is still the exact same God. Thus makeing it possible to have two witnesses.

No, Spirit + humanity is not equal to two witnesses.

I am a human which consists of both flesh and Spirit. I am still only one witness.

Unless you separate the persons of the Godhead you can not have two witnesses.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Just b/c He was A Spirit in heaven, and a man on earth does not require a seperation of Persons. Its just a diffrent relationship, or a diffrent manifestation.

As I said, if you don't make the separation, you have only ONE witness. Two manifestations of one person is still one person.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
If there are three seperate persons in the God head, we would have three seperate witness, wouldent you agree? So what happened to the third person?

Because the Holy Spirit was not sent to testify until later.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
The "Son" of God was both God and Man. Do you agree?

Not exactly.

Jesus was both God and man, but the Son existed before he became man. Therefore, he is more than just a human manifestation of the Father, for he was with the Father in the beginning.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
NIV

Originally posted by ONENESS:
God is a Spirit John 4:24, That Spirit of God can be in all places at all times. Psalm 139:8

No argument there.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
We know the Son of God to have both human and Godly Natures. God is now in heaven and God is now walking on Earth as a man.

I thought you believed that the Son of God was just the flesh of the Father.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
He did not come down as a seperate Person but he came down and revealed him self through the flesh, which is called the Son of God.

So is it the flesh that is the Son of God and the Spirit that is the Father, or does the Flesh (SON) have both flesh and a separate Spirit from the Father?

Originally posted by ONENESS:

We know the term "Son" referrs to the Humanity.

No we don't know this. This is a false statement and you will find no verses that support this.

The Son shared glory in the beginning. The Son is separate from the Father. The Son did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The Son had every quality of a Man save sin.

Agree, but only when the Son was here on earth as man.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
God is now in heaven as a Spirit and he is also on Earth as a man. He is still the exact same God. Thus makeing it possible to have two witnesses.

No, Spirit + humanity is not equal to two witnesses.

I am a human which consists of both flesh and Spirit. I am still only one witness.

Unless you separate the persons of the Godhead you can not have two witnesses.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Just b/c He was A Spirit in heaven, and a man on earth does not require a seperation of Persons. Its just a diffrent relationship, or a diffrent manifestation.

As I said, if you don't make the separation, you have only ONE witness. Two manifestations of one person is still one person.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
If there are three seperate persons in the God head, we would have three seperate witness, wouldent you agree? So what happened to the third person?

Because the Holy Spirit was not sent to testify until later.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
NIV

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

Not exactly.

Jesus was both God and man, but the Son existed before he became man. Therefore, he is more than just a human manifestation of the Father, for he was with the Father in the beginning.

The Son did not exist before he bacame a man as another Person of God. He existed as the word. John 1:1. We all know what the word is dont we?

If you dont. Look up the definiton of "Logos"

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The question is "What was the Son doing when he asked this?"

It is easy to see that this is the "man" praying. And he was speaking as a man and not as God. The humanity did not exist in the beginning did it? Jesus was talking about the glory the son had in the plan of god from the begining.

I thought you believed that the Son of God was just the flesh of the Father.

I believe that the Son is the father incarnate. The Son refers to humanity not the eternal Spirit of God. Not JUST flesh.

So is it the flesh that is the Son of God and the Spirit that is the Father, or does the Flesh (SON) have both flesh and a separate Spirit from the Father?

The "Son" is the One True God (the Father) in Flesh. Not the second person in the Trinity. (1 tim 3:16) (1 John 3:16)

No we don't know this. This is a false statement and you will find no verses that support this.

The Son shared glory in the beginning. The Son is separate from the Father. The Son did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Well we know that the "Son" is not bearing witness in heaven now dont we?

He did not share Glory as a second person. He was not flesh in the beginning. Can you prove other wise?

No, Spirit + humanity is not equal to two witnesses.

I am a human which consists of both flesh and Spirit. I am still only one witness.

Unless you separate the persons of the Godhead you can not have two witnesses.

So now you are doubting God. Our flesh and Spirit is limited. Gods Spirit is One Witness and Gods Flesh is another witness. Our Spirit can not be somewhere else doing something for us. But Gods Spirit can.

As I said, if you don't make the separation, you have only ONE witness. Two manifestations of one person is still one person.

So in other words Three Seperate Persons cant Equal One. One God cant be Three diffrent Persons and in the end be the same person. How can one God be three witness then. If they are all the same God than they are all the same witnesses

 

[Lorelei]

What is a plan?

How can a plan be with someone?

Can a plan be God?

Can a plan create the world?

Can a plan sit down at the right hand of the Father?

How can a plan share in glory with God?

What glory did the plan have before the world began, for without the world, the plan was not in need yet, correct?

Is it the plan that became flesh, or did God become flesh?

Is God a plan or is the plan God?

Can a plan love the Father?

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The question is "What was the Son doing when he asked this?"

It is easy to see that this is the "man" praying. And he was speaking as a man and not as God. The humanity did not exist in the beginning did it? Jesus was talking about the glory the son had in the plan of god from the begining.

No, the question is what did he say? You can't change the meaning of the text by inserting your belief into the text!

Christ said:

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Glorify ME with the glory I had WITH you before the world began.

This is a very personal statement. There is no reference whatsover to a plan that existed. Christ talked to the Father as the Son. He talked TO the Father, he was NOT the Father.

You can make all the excuses you want, but the text still says what it says, it doesn't say what you imply that it means.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

~Lorelei

[ September 23, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
What is a plan?

How can a plan be with someone?

Can a plan be God?

Can a plan create the world?

Can a plan sit down at the right hand of the Father?

How can a plan share in glory with God?

What glory did the plan have before the world began, for without the world, the plan was not in need yet, correct?

Is it the plan that became flesh, or did God become flesh?

Is God a plan or is the plan God?

Can a plan love the Father?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
The question is "What was the Son doing when he asked this?"

It is easy to see that this is the "man" praying. And he was speaking as a man and not as God. The humanity did not exist in the beginning did it? Jesus was talking about the glory the son had in the plan of god from the begining.

No, the question is what did he say? You can't change the meaning of the text by inserting your belief into the text!

Christ said:

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Glorify ME with the glory I had WITH you before the world began.

This is a very personal statement. There is no reference whatsover to a plan that existed. Christ talked to the Father as the Son. He talked TO the Father, he was NOT the Father.

You can make all the excuses you want, but the text still says what it says, it doesn't say what you imply that it means.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]

What is a plan?

We should ask ourselves what the "Word" is to determine that.

3056 logos {log'-os}

from 3004; TDNT - 4:69,505; n m

AV - word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7,
thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32; 330

1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter
in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating,
reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600
B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a
changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in
John 1.

How can a plan be with someone?

The same way our thoughts and plans are with us.

Can a plan create the world?

Yes

Can a plan sit down at the right hand of the Father?

Only after that the plan as been put in action.

How can a plan share in glory with God?

Where do you get the word share from. God will not share his devine Glory with another.

In the Context what Glory is Jesus Talking about?

What glory did the plan have before the world began, for without the world, the plan was not in need yet, correct?

Again, in the context of John 17:5 what Glory was Jesus speaking of?

You are correct, the plan was not in need yet. But as I said before God does not know time. So when God plans to do something he speaks as if it has already happened. (Romans 4:16)

Is God a plan or is the plan God?

Here we go again... God is a Spirit. There is only one Spirit. (Eph 4) God was looking down through the ages and knew he was going to have a son. The son was not in the beginning with God as a seperate person. He was in the beginning as the WORD. Now say that about 10 time SO YOU DONT FORGET IT

When the fullness of Time came God put that plan into action. That is when the word became flesh. Not when the son became flesh The son was not in the beginning as a sperate person. He was in the beginning as the word.

Can a plan love the Father?

After it has been put into action it can.

[ September 25, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

I am finding debating with you just a fruitless as I do with Catholics. You say you hold the Bible as the final authority, but in reality you hold the doctrine of your church as the final authority and will only interpret verses within that context. In doing so, you ignore and change so much of the meaning of scripture it is heretical and truly sad.

These verses mean what they say. You can continue to try implant certain meanings into the text, but it just doesn't work.

John 17:1-5
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
NIV

In Genesis 1:26 is clear that God said "Let us make man in our image"

There have to be two witnesses to make a valid testimony and your explanation, no matter how much you repeat it, does not add up.

You may be with your plans, I have mine. My plans don't create things, I create them. Your explanation is another great stretch, trying so hard to implant your beliefs into what was really said.

If you want to study the ancient languages, why not begin in Isaiah 9:6 and realize that the words Eternal Father simply means that Christ was Eternal.

Here is a quick lesson for you:

Many proper names in the Old testament use the term "ab" ". A person who has something, a trait of some kind, is often called "The Father of it".

Here are some examples:

2 Samuel 23:31 Abeithon translates into "Father of Strength" which simply means "strong".

Exodus 6:24 "Abiaseph" translates into "Father of gathering" which simply means gatherer.

Isaiah 9:6 "Father of Eternity" simply means that Jesus is eternal.

Other than that verse you can find no text whatsoever that clearly states that, as you have claimed, "Jesus is the Father incarnate".

It isn't true.

You can use verses where Christ said that I and my Father are one, but that doesn't mean that he IS The Father. If you believe that, then you believe that we too will become God.

John 17:22-23
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
NIV

Jesus has stated that the Father is greater than himself. Christ is in heaven now, sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for his enemies to be put under his feet. Remember, Paul said that everything was put under his feet, but he adds "Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. "

There is just too much evidence that you have to explain away, and your explanations are not Biblical, they are biased upon your doctrine.

I will close with the words of Christ at the end of His prayer in John 17. It is obvious that Christ was loved by the Father before the creation of the world. He didn't love a plan and this prayer wasn't a love fest of Himself.

The Father loved WHO? Christ

WHEN? Before the creation of the world.

Now, why don't you repeat that 10 times, just so you don't forget?

Consider this my closing statement. I don't have time, nor do I care to sit back watch you make a mockery of the words of Christ any longer.

I wish you well Oneness and I will continue to pray that as you study the Word your eyes will be opened to see the truth.

John 17:24-26
24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Oneness,

I am finding debating with you just a fruitless as I do with Catholics. You say you hold the Bible as the final authority, but in reality you hold the doctrine of your church as the final authority and will only interpret verses within that context. In doing so, you ignore and change so much of the meaning of scripture it is heretical and truly sad.

These verses mean what they say. You can continue to try implant certain meanings into the text, but it just doesn't work.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 17:1-5
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
NIV

In Genesis 1:26 is clear that God said "Let us make man in our image"

There have to be two witnesses to make a valid testimony and your explanation, no matter how much you repeat it, does not add up.

You may be with your plans, I have mine. My plans don't create things, I create them. Your explanation is another great stretch, trying so hard to implant your beliefs into what was really said.

If you want to study the ancient languages, why not begin in Isaiah 9:6 and realize that the words Eternal Father simply means that Christ was Eternal.

Here is a quick lesson for you:

Many proper names in the Old testament use the term "ab" ". A person who has something, a trait of some kind, is often called "The Father of it".

Here are some examples:

2 Samuel 23:31 Abeithon translates into "Father of Strength" which simply means "strong".

Exodus 6:24 "Abiaseph" translates into "Father of gathering" which simply means gatherer.

Isaiah 9:6 "Father of Eternity" simply means that Jesus is eternal.

Other than that verse you can find no text whatsoever that clearly states that, as you have claimed, "Jesus is the Father incarnate".

It isn't true.

You can use verses where Christ said that I and my Father are one, but that doesn't mean that he IS The Father. If you believe that, then you believe that we too will become God.

John 17:22-23
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
NIV

Jesus has stated that the Father is greater than himself. Christ is in heaven now, sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for his enemies to be put under his feet. Remember, Paul said that everything was put under his feet, but he adds "Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. "

There is just too much evidence that you have to explain away, and your explanations are not Biblical, they are biased upon your doctrine.

I will close with the words of Christ at the end of His prayer in John 17. It is obvious that Christ was loved by the Father before the creation of the world. He didn't love a plan and this prayer wasn't a love fest of Himself.

The Father loved WHO? Christ

WHEN? Before the creation of the world.

Now, why don't you repeat that 10 times, just so you don't forget?

Consider this my closing statement. I don't have time, nor do I care to sit back watch you make a mockery of the words of Christ any longer.

I wish you well Oneness and I will continue to pray that as you study the Word your eyes will be opened to see the truth.

John 17:24-26
24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
NIV

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Lorelie, but im not ready to close yet. I still have a few questions to ask you

How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?

Is the Son a Spirit?

How is Jesus going to be in us?

How did Jesus raise himself from the dead?

How can you give thanks to God and thanks to the Father by him?

Phillip asked "Show us the Father and it sufficeth us. Jesus said Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME Phillip? He that hast seen Me hast seen(past tence) the Father and how sayest thou show us the father?

Jesus just told phillip he was the father. Where is the difficulty in seeing that?

Is the creator an us?

Sorry for all the questions all at once, but for the most part i tryed answering all of your questions and saveing mine till last.

Would you please let me know your answers on this?

 

[Chemnitz]

Can you say here we go around the mulberry bush.