Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Chemnitz · Oct 28, 2002

What bible are you using?

Well that depends. The english translation I use most often is the ESV. When I do original language work I use the BHS (Hebrew) and the Nestle-Aland ed 27 for Greek.

So was Paul wrong when he said that the Godhead should be clearly seen? I’m doing my best to supply you with scripture to show you what I believe, If you say that God intended parts of the “Godhead” to be a mystery please show me in the bible.

No Paul, is not wrong, you just seem to have problems with the english grammar and understanding context. Paul is plainly referring to the revealed wrath of God in Rm 1:18-32. So there are still unrevealed parts of God's nature Ex 33:20-23

And that my friend is why we have baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When we say the Name of Jesus we give Glory to our one true God who manifested as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. When we say Jesus we are calling on the one true God and All that he is b/c the One true God has manifested himself in the Name and Person of Jesus Christ

No that means you have just been baptized in the name of Jesus.

From a trinitarians P.O.V. that means the Jesus is above the Father and Holy Ghost.

No. Try again. This time use actual legitamate Trinitarian scholars instead of the anti-Trinitarian tracts that you love so much.

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Again an issue of who's authority they were speaking under.

Chemnitz, as you would say it “You are swinging at straws”.

Not swinging straws just questioning your ability to understand the english language.

ONENESS · Oct 28, 2002

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />What bible are you using?

Well that depends. The english translation I use most often is the ESV. When I do original language work I use the BHS (Hebrew) and the Nestle-Aland ed 27 for Greek.

So was Paul wrong when he said that the Godhead should be clearly seen? I’m doing my best to supply you with scripture to show you what I believe, If you say that God intended parts of the “Godhead” to be a mystery please show me in the bible.

Click to expand...

No Paul, is not wrong, you just seem to have problems with the english grammar and understanding context. Paul is plainly referring to the revealed wrath of God in Rm 1:18-32. So there are still unrevealed parts of God's nature Ex 33:20-23

And that my friend is why we have baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When we say the Name of Jesus we give Glory to our one true God who manifested as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. When we say Jesus we are calling on the one true God and All that he is b/c the One true God has manifested himself in the Name and Person of Jesus Christ

Click to expand...

No that means you have just been baptized in the name of Jesus.

From a trinitarians P.O.V. that means the Jesus is above the Father and Holy Ghost.

Click to expand...

No. Try again. This time use actual legitamate Trinitarian scholars instead of the anti-Trinitarian tracts that you love so much.

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Click to expand...

Again an issue of who's authority they were speaking under.

Chemnitz, as you would say it “You are swinging at straws”.

Click to expand...

Not swinging straws just questioning your ability to understand the english language.[/QUOTE]

No Paul, is not wrong, you just seem to have problems with the english grammar and understanding context. Paul is plainly referring to the revealed wrath of God in Rm 1:18-32. So there are still unrevealed parts of God's nature Ex 33:20-23

Your right, there are parts of his nature that is unrevealed to us, but the Godhead is not one of those things. There is One God not One God three persons. Very easy and clear to understand.

No that means you have just been baptized in the name of Jesus.

You said it not me…

Again an issue of who's authority they were speaking under.

Was it just authority or was it more? They were baptizing in that Name, they were casting out devils in that name etc. Just like when Paul said I command you in the Name of Jesus that what we say at Baptism. I baptize you in the Name of Jesus. Its that Name that counts. Its at that Name that all knees will bow and tongues will confess. That is the only name given among men under heaven where by we must be saved. Acts 4:12

No. Try again. This time use actual legitamate Trinitarian scholars instead of the anti-Trinitarian tracts that you love so much.

You are making this to easy for me Chemnitz. Anti Trinitarian Tracts….hmmm nice try but lucky for you I have not used one of those in a very long time. Been doing a lot of studying from the word of God here lately and just taking it for what it says.

So when do you want to tell me which person in the God head was speaking through Isaiah?

God bless

Chemnitz · Oct 28, 2002

Your right, there are parts of his nature that is unrevealed to us, but the Godhead is not one of those things. There is One God not One God three persons. Very easy and clear to understand.

So why do you keep missing the mark?

Was it just authority or was it more?

Just authority, unless there is a direct quote and there isn't.

Been doing a lot of studying from the word of God here lately and just taking it for what it says.

Suprising, concidering you haven't demonstrated any comprehension. I guess the inability to take Scripture as whole can be the reason why you still do not understand.

God never intended his Godhead to be a mystery, and it is not. The One and Only eternal Spirit of God manifested himself to Israel through the Person and Name of Jesus Christ. Lived on the Earth as the Son of God, Died for our sins, Rose again And is now in heaven at the right hand of Power. He is not a separate Person, Spirit or Being. He is still the same One Spirit that he has always been.

So now you say you believe that Power is the Father? Its bad enough that you insist that there are two people called Christ but now you are making the Father to being only an attribute.

It requires a God who is bigger than you and myself to be able to do it. We know God is not three persons.

So you are saying God is greater than himself? Interesting if it weren't for the fact you are wrong. Christ who is indivisibly 100%God and 100% man was praying to the person of the Father. Not because the Father is some greater diety or because Christ had to communicate in that fashion but because Christ chose to communicate with the Father in that fashion.

Dualhunter · Oct 28, 2002

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The LORD (YHVH) of hosts says that the LORD (YHVH) of hosts has sent Him.

ONENESS · Oct 29, 2002

Just authority, unless there is a direct quote and there isn't.

It was just authority, I will agree with you there. But where is that authority in the Name of Jesus if it is never spoke? That authority is practiced when we SAY the Name of Jesus through Faith (acts 3:16). Just as Peter did in Acts. He turned and said “ Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

What makes baptism any different Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The bible lets us know in Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I am still waiting on you to tell me which person of the Trinity spoke through Isaiah. Please answer this question. There is only one answer so please oblige me with the answer.

And here are some more scriptures speaking on the Name of Jesus
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Look Chemnitz I could go on and on all day long showing you how important that Name is. Tell me, what does that Name mean to you?

And please tell me why the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are never mentioned like the Name of Jesus. If you want I can, Its b/c All the fullness of the Godhead bodily is in Jesus. Col 2:9.

So now you say you believe that Power is the Father? Its bad enough that you insist that there are two people called Christ but now you are making the Father to being only an attribute

Well…now I am saying that I believe that you have a lack of knowledge concerning scripture. Not that I did not know that already. (teasing) But don’t take the bibles word for it. You would never do that…would you? Haha.
Its not me that said that. It was God himself. Or let me guess…I am taking it out of context again? Righhhht. * winks *

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

God Bless

[ October 29, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Chemnitz · Oct 29, 2002

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

What makes baptism any different Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thank you for proving that the phrases used in Acts are only cases of by who's authority. Now since you obviously now see the light why do you insist on baptizing only in the name of Jesus, why do you insist on ignoring the other two persons.

All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, for it is He who testifies.

I am still waiting to find out why you keep insisting that there are two people called Jesus.

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

What makes baptism any different Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thank you for proving that the phrases used in Acts are only cases of by who's authority. Now since you obviously now see the light why do you insist on baptizing only in the name of Jesus, why do you insist on ignoring the other two persons.

All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, for it is He who testifies.

I am still waiting to find out why you keep insisting that there are two people called Jesus.[/QUOTE]Chemnitz, quit being ignorant.

Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. What did Peter and Paul both say. They said "I command you in the Name of Jesus..." what did they SAY? Was it Jesus? YES. Was there any mention of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? NO! Why? B/c Jesus is the Name of the Father, SOn, and Holy Ghost. Just read Mat 28:19 to figure that out. Everything that God is is wound up in Jesus. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

You have not used scripture save a few times to back up what you believe, and that does not even make since pertaining to what you believe. You have no statement that I have made that suggests that There are two persons in Christ. Instead of trying to make me look bad, why dont you just answer the questions that I have asked?

In not trying to down grade you or make you loose face. All I have done was ask you a few questions. Which none I have received an answer to. If you dont want to answer them than say so, Get out of this topic and let someone pick it up where you left.

WHAT PERSON OF THE TRINITY WAS SPEAKING THROUGH ISAIAH"

HOW HARD IS THAT?

Look just to keep it simple dont reply to any other thing except for that one question. Either answer it or leave.

Thank you and good day.

[ October 30, 2002, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Dualhunter · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The LORD (YHVH) of hosts says that the LORD (YHVH) of hosts has sent Him.

Care to deal with this one?

Chemnitz · Oct 30, 2002

Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. What did Peter and Paul both say. They said "I command you in the Name of Jesus..." what did they SAY? Was it Jesus? YES. Was there any mention of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? NO! Why? B/c Jesus is the Name of the Father, SOn, and Holy Ghost. Just read Mat 28:19 to figure that out. Everything that God is is wound up in Jesus. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I have read it many times, in several different translations and in the Greek, which is why I am still convinced you are dead wrong.

You have not used scripture save a few times to back up what you believe, and that does not even make since pertaining to what you believe. You have no statement that I have made that suggests that There are two persons in Christ. Instead of trying to make me look bad, why dont you just answer the questions that I have asked?

I don't have to try, you do a pretty good job of making yourself look bad. You are the one who insists that there are two persons called christ with your interpretation of the prayer. I have just been attacking the fundamentals of your Christology, which is severely flawed.

I did answer your question, you just ignored it.

Dualhunter · Oct 30, 2002

Jesus is not the name of the Father:

8
"(1) I am the LORD, that is (2) My name;
I will not give My (3) glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images. - Isaiah 42:8 NASB

The all caps "LORD" means that the Hebrew says "YHVH". The Father says His name is Yahveh, not Jesus.

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

I have read it many times, in several different translations and in the Greek, which is why I am still convinced you are dead wrong.

Col 2:9
hoti en autos katoikeo pas pleroma theotes somatikos

For in him dwelleth all the Fullness of the Godhead bodily.

3754 hoti {hot'-ee}
neuter of 3748 as conjunction; demonst. that (sometimes redundant);; conj
AV - that 612, for 264, because 173, how that 21, how 11, misc 212; 1293

1) that, because, since
1722 en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep

AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62,
through 39, misc 264; 2800

1) in, by, with etc.
846 autos {ow-tos'}

from the particle au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the
idea of a baffling wind] (backward);; pron

AV - him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121, same 80,
himself 58, misc 1678; 5785

1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
2730 katoikeo {kat-oy-keh'-o}

from 2596 and 3611; TDNT - 5:153,674; v

AV - dwell 42, dweller 2, inhabitor 2, inhabitant 1; 47

1) to dwell, settle
1a) metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to
dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it
2) to dwell in, inhabit
2a) God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present
for worshippers

For Synonyms see entry 5854
3956 pas {pas}

including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
4138 pleroma {play'-ro-mah}

from 4137; TDNT - 6:298,867; n n

AV - fulness 13, full 1, fulfilling 1, which is put in to fill up 1,
pierce that filled up 1; 17

1) that which is (has been) filled
1a) a ship inasmuch as it is filled (i.e. manned) with sailors,

rowers, and soldiers
1b) in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with
the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ
2) that which fills or with which a thing is filled
2a) of those things which a ship is filled, freight and
merchandise, sailors, oarsmen, soldiers
2b) completeness or fulness of time
3) fulness, abundance
4) a fulfilling, keeping
2320 theotes {theh-ot'-ace}

from 2316; TDNT - 3:119,322; n f

AV - Godhead 1; 1

1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
4985 somatikos {so-mat-ee-koce'}

from 4984;; adv

AV - bodily 1; 1

1) bodily, corporally
1a) of the exalted spiritual body, visible only to the inhabitants
of heaven

How in the world can you get anything other than what the writer of Col. came up with?

[ October 30, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

I have read it many times, in several different translations and in the Greek, which is why I am still convinced you are dead wrong.

Pleas allow me to ask "What convinced you"?

KJV : Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
ASV: Colossians 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
DBY Colossians 2:9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;
KJ21: Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
NKJV: Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
RSV : Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,
RWEBSTER: Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
WEY: Colossians 2:9 For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,
YLT: Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

Do I need to go on? This was so everyone else could see. Chemnitz maybe you should post the version of bibles you are using.
Let me guess which one it was...Was it the (NRCV) New Revised Chemnitz Version?

[ October 30, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Chemnitz · Oct 30, 2002

How in the world can you get anything other than what the writer of Col. came up with?

Do you even realize what I was responding to? Maybe I should continue to let you look the fool but I can't.

I was responding to your comment on Mt 28.

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />How in the world can you get anything other than what the writer of Col. came up with?

Do you even realize what I was responding to? Maybe I should continue to let you look the fool but I can't.

I was responding to your comment on Mt 28.[/QUOTE]Sorry...But oh well there it is anyway... Well let me go to the same for Matt 28:19

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Poreuomai oun matheteuo pas ethnos baptizo autos eis onoma pater kai huios kai
Hagios pneuma

4198 poreuomai {por-yoo'-om-ahee}
middle voice from a derivative of the same as 3984; TDNT - 6:566,915; v

AV - go 117, depart 11, walk 9, go (one's) way 8, misc 9; 154

1) to lead over, carry over, transfer
1a) to pursue the journey on which one has entered, to continue on
one's journey

1b) to depart from life
1c) to follow one, that is: become his adherent
1c1) to lead or order one's life
3767 oun {oon}

apparently a root word;; particle

AV - therefore 263, then 197, so 18, and 11, now 9, wherefore 8,
but 5, not tr 9, misc 6; 526

1) then, therefore, accordingly, consequently, these things being so
3767 oun {oon}

apparently a root word;; particle

AV - therefore 263, then 197, so 18, and 11, now 9, wherefore 8,
but 5, not tr 9, misc 6; 526

1) then, therefore, accordingly, consequently, these things being so
3956 pas {pas}

including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}

probably from 1486; TDNT - 2:364,201; n n

AV - Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2; 164

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or
living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,
Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
907 baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}

from a derivative of 911; TDNT - 1:529,92; verb

AV - baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows
the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician
Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles
and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in
order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'
(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the
vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a
solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of
baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our
union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.

Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.
Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There
must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the
pickle!
Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.
846 autos {ow-tos'}

from the particle au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the
idea of a baffling wind] (backward);; pron

AV - him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121, same 80,
himself 58, misc 1678; 5785

1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
1519 eis {ice}

a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep

AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58,
toward 29, against 26, misc 322; 1774

1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
3686 onoma {on'-om-ah}

from a presumed derivative of the base of 1097 (cf 3685);
TDNT - 5:242,694; n n

AV - name 193, named 28, called 4, surname + 2007 2, named + 2564 1,
not tr 1; 229

1) name: univ. of proper names
2) the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything
the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by
mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank,
authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.
3) persons reckoned up by name
4) the cause or reason named: on this account, because he
suffers as a Christian, for this reason
3962 pater {pat-ayr'}

apparently a root word; TDNT - 5:945,805; n m

AV - Father 268, father 150; 419

1) generator or male ancestor
1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal
nature, natural fathers, both parents
1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe,
progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called,
Jacob and David
1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
1c) one advanced in years, a senior
2) metaph.
2a) the originator and transmitter of anything
2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by
the same spirit as himself
2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who
actuates and governs their minds
2b) one who stands in a father's place and looks after another
in a paternal way
2c) a title of honour
2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge
and training they have received
2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by
virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled,
to take charge of the interests of others
3) God is called the Father
3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their
creator, upholder, ruler
3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or
men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and
protector
3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men
3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been
exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with
God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of
sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to
himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made
acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry
out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also
in his own divine nature
3d1) by Jesus Christ himself
3d2) by the apostles
2532 kai {kahee}

apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj

AV - and 8173, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 350, misc 31, vr and 1; 9251

1) and, also, even, indeed, but
5207 huios {hwee-os'}

apparently a primary word; TDNT - 8:334,1206; n m

AV - son(s) 85, Son of Man + 444 87 {TDNT 8:400, 1210},
Son of God + 2316 49, child(ren) 49, Son 42, his Son + 848 21,
Son of David + 1138 15 {TDNT 8:478, 1210},

my beloved Son + 27 + 3350 7, thy Son + 4575 5,
only begotten Son + 3339 3, his (David's) son + 846 3,
firstborn son + 4316 2, misc 14; 382

1) a son
1a) rarely used for the young of animals
1b) generally used of the offspring of men
1c) in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father
and of a mother)
1d) in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
1d1) the children of Israel
1d2) sons of Abraham
1e)) used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
1e1) a pupil
2) son of man
2a) term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and
mortality
2b) son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13
and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the
barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the
Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the
Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd
Century) it is used of Christ.
2c) used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that he might
intimate his Messiahship and also that he might designate
himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who
both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on
behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to
the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was
least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah
in royal splendour.
3) son of God
3a) used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:38)
3b) used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:36) and of
angels and of Jesus Christ
3c) of those whom God esteems as sons, whom he loves, protects and
benefits above others
3c1) in the OT used of the Jews
3c2) in the NT of Christians
3c3) those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by
chastisements (Heb. 12:5-8)
3d) those who revere God as their father, the pious worshippers of
God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who
are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and
joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Rom.
8:14, Gal. 3:26 ), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory
of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons
of God. Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying
the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate
intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the
Father's will in all his acts
2532 kai {kahee}

apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj

AV - and 8173, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 350, misc 31, vr and 1; 9251

1) and, also, even, indeed, but
40 hagios {hag'-ee-os}

from hagos (an awful thing) [cf 53, 2282]; TDNT - 1:88,14; adj

AV - holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229

1) most holy thing, a saint
4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}

from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n

AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal,
coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his
personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work
and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels,
thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least
all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing,
desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived
as inhabiting the bodies of men

3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest
angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul
of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

So through your time of studying different translations the different text what did you gather out of it?

BTW. Will you show me where you answered my question about “Who was speaking through Jehovah”?

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Now you tell me how you could come up with something diffrent. All of these translations do nothing but comfirm what I am trying to show you.

Matthew 28:19 :: New International Version (NIV)
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 :: New Living Translation (NLT)
19Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 "(1) Go therefore and (2) make disciples of (3) all the nations, (4) baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 :: King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:19 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
19Go therefore[1] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
Matthew 28:19 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)
19Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them [1] into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 :: American Standard Version (ASV)
9 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Matthew 28:19 :: Darby Translation (DARBY)
19 Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
Matthew 28:19 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 :: Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
19 So go and make disciples in all countries. Baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The LORD (YHVH) of hosts says that the LORD (YHVH) of hosts has sent Him.

Care to deal with this one?[/QUOTE]Dualhunter, I will as soon as Chemnitz has answered my question. I dont want to have several conversations with diffrent people going on at once. If I did that I would miss some of the ohther persons questions.

Hope you understand...

Godbless

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no. YHWH is the true name of the Trinity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is that the Name that Matt 28:19 is decribeing, and Which person of the Trinity was speaking through Isaiah? Or would you just sum it up as it was the Father doing all the talking representing the Trinity in all of the Old Testament?

God bless

Ok here is where we got on that issue. But you never told me which person of YHWH was doing the talking through Isaiah. So...Which one was it?

Chemnitz · Oct 30, 2002

Now you tell me how you could come up with something diffrent. All of these translations do nothing but comfirm what I am trying to show you.

Confirm what? That you do not understand Greek grammar?

You can't tell me you have forgotten that post where I rebutted your argument based on Mt 28, I have already reposted that argument at least 6 times.

I did answer your question in regards to Isaiah. You are just going to have to go back and look for it.

ONENESS · Oct 30, 2002

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now you tell me how you could come up with something diffrent. All of these translations do nothing but comfirm what I am trying to show you.

Confirm what? That you do not understand Greek grammar?

You can't tell me you have forgotten that post where I rebutted your argument based on Mt 28, I have already reposted that argument at least 6 times.

I did answer your question in regards to Isaiah. You are just going to have to go back and look for it.[/QUOTE]Confirm what? It confirms that the Father, SOn, and Holy Ghost all decribe the One Name that Jesus was talking about.

Just read the translations used by diffrent versions of the bible. If you cant understand English how are you going to be able to understand Greek.

As for me. I just use the Greek to back up what The bible says in English. Its pretty simple. You should try it.

Chemnitz, looks to me that your rebuttle was not much of a rebuttle. I dont remember it, and if maybe you want to give me a page number I will go back and check it out, or you could just cut and Paste. thats pretty simple to.

You never answered the question about Isaiah. The only thing you said was that YHWH was the correct Name of The trinity.

So I asked Which person of YHWH was talking in Isaiah, you never gave me the Person or Persons that were speaking. You just gave me YHWH. So which Person was it?

[ October 30, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

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