Dualhunter
New Member
No, I do not have AIM. If you cannot see that the Word was both with God and God; not one or the other, then we aren't going to get anywhere.
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Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
Dualhunter
New Member
The Word is the Son, not the Father. The Word is not a separate God but is a distinct person. There is 1 God who alone is creator of all, this same creator who said "Let us create man in our own image".
Ok, this is where we are going to have to be plain. I want dance around your questions if you dont dance around mine.
Who helped the Father create the world? Was it one Person or Three? Was is one Lord or three? Was it one Spirit or Three?
If you want to keep it simple please just make a list and number them 1), 2), 3). Beside each number please put 1 Person, 2 Persons, or 3 Persons, 1 Lord, 2 Lords, or 3 Lords, 1 Spirit, 2 Spirits, or 3 Spirits.
I just want to make sure there is no ambiguity on my part concerning your answer.
God bless
[ November 18, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
Dualhunter
New Member
There is 1 God who alone is creator of all, this same creator who said "Let us create man in our own image". The Father created through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. The 3 persons are united as God and so they interact working together.
Now stop avoiding my questions, you have asked me many questions but have yet to tell me how the LORD of hosts can be sent by the LORD of hosts (i.e. God was sent by God), how the Word can be both with God and God and here's another one that only makes sense with multiple persons in the Godhead:
1 Now (1) the LORD appeared to him by the (2) oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three (3) men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, - Genesis 18:1-2 NASB
Three men appear one of them being the LORD (i.e. Yahveh).
22 Then (23) the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before (24) the LORD. - Genesis 18:22 NASB
Two of them leave (Genesis 19:1 shows that 2 left while it just says "the men" in the above verse), but the LORD stays.
This is one of the several examples of somebody seeing God.
18 (1) No one has seen God at any time; (2) the only begotten God who is (3) in the bosom of the Father, (4) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB
Skeptics will often quote example of when somebody saw God and then quote the above verse from John (and also John 6:46 and 1 John 4:12). How can no one have seen God at any time if there are several examples in the Old Testament where people have seen God and lived? This is not a problem for the Trinitarian view, the Son reveals the Father, and the Son existed prior to the incarnation and therefore could appear in physical form even before coming to live as a man. The incarnate Son is the only man who has seen the Father, this same Son has made known the Father and so people could see the Son and therefore see God without contradicting the statement that no man has seen God, that is the Father.
Now stop avoiding my questions, you have asked me many questions but have yet to tell me how the LORD of hosts can be sent by the LORD of hosts (i.e. God was sent by God), how the Word can be both with God and God and here's another one that only makes sense with multiple persons in the Godhead:
1 Now (1) the LORD appeared to him by the (2) oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three (3) men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, - Genesis 18:1-2 NASB
Three men appear one of them being the LORD (i.e. Yahveh).
22 Then (23) the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before (24) the LORD. - Genesis 18:22 NASB
Two of them leave (Genesis 19:1 shows that 2 left while it just says "the men" in the above verse), but the LORD stays.
This is one of the several examples of somebody seeing God.
18 (1) No one has seen God at any time; (2) the only begotten God who is (3) in the bosom of the Father, (4) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB
Skeptics will often quote example of when somebody saw God and then quote the above verse from John (and also John 6:46 and 1 John 4:12). How can no one have seen God at any time if there are several examples in the Old Testament where people have seen God and lived? This is not a problem for the Trinitarian view, the Son reveals the Father, and the Son existed prior to the incarnation and therefore could appear in physical form even before coming to live as a man. The incarnate Son is the only man who has seen the Father, this same Son has made known the Father and so people could see the Son and therefore see God without contradicting the statement that no man has seen God, that is the Father.
Dual hunter, I have already answered your questions. Now if you did not like my answer, I cant do anything for you. Now for the rest of your post, do you want me to read or are you expecting a reply?
This is not God the Son revealing the Father to Abraham. God reveals him self through theophanies. A Theophany is a visible manifestation of God. God was revealed to Moses through a burning bush. Are you telling me that a bush is also a person in the Godhead. And there are many more through out the bible.
Here is where we are at dualhunter. You and myself are trying to establish common ground on what you and I believe so may be one of us can shed a little light on what we both believe. My questions are to do just that. I have provided you answers for every question you have asked. And as I said before just b/c you don’t agree with the answer does not make it wrong, and likewise for me.
It has been said by many famous people, “before you can move on we need to have the basics down”. And that is what I am trying to establish first. There is no need for us to stay in this deep theological debate about different experiences people in the bible had. Lets just back up a little and take it from square one. We may cover some ground again but if it will help us establish the truth than I don’t mind taking my time. And I hope you feel the same about me. And then once we have agreed on the basics we can move on to understand what the rest of the scripture is trying to define to us.
I will make it so simple for you if you will just allow me to do so.
How many Lords are there?
a) one
b) two
c) three
How many persons helped in the creation of the world?
a) One
b) Two
c) Three
How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?
a) one
b) two
c) three
Now if you do not agree with me on these answers we will have to study it before we go any farther. Will you please answer these?
Godbless
Are you saying that these three men are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?
This is not God the Son revealing the Father to Abraham. God reveals him self through theophanies. A Theophany is a visible manifestation of God. God was revealed to Moses through a burning bush. Are you telling me that a bush is also a person in the Godhead. And there are many more through out the bible.
Here is where we are at dualhunter. You and myself are trying to establish common ground on what you and I believe so may be one of us can shed a little light on what we both believe. My questions are to do just that. I have provided you answers for every question you have asked. And as I said before just b/c you don’t agree with the answer does not make it wrong, and likewise for me.
It has been said by many famous people, “before you can move on we need to have the basics down”. And that is what I am trying to establish first. There is no need for us to stay in this deep theological debate about different experiences people in the bible had. Lets just back up a little and take it from square one. We may cover some ground again but if it will help us establish the truth than I don’t mind taking my time. And I hope you feel the same about me. And then once we have agreed on the basics we can move on to understand what the rest of the scripture is trying to define to us.
I will make it so simple for you if you will just allow me to do so.
How many Lords are there?
a) one
b) two
c) three
How many persons helped in the creation of the world?
a) One
b) Two
c) Three
How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?
a) one
b) two
c) three
Now if you do not agree with me on these answers we will have to study it before we go any farther. Will you please answer these?
Godbless
Dualhunter
New Member
You have not given a valid answer to my questions.
Abraham recognized the man who stay with him as God. You have conviently ignored the fact that there are several examples in the Old Testament of somebody seeing God, and then there are verses saying that no man has seen God but the Son has made Him known. Has any man see God or not?
You questions regarding Trinitarian views are asked from a Unitarian view point.
"How many Lords are there?"
For example the above question assumes that the Trinitarian view holds to 3 separate gods, each being "a lord". There is one Lord God in 3 persons.
"How many persons helped in the creation of the world?"
Again you assume that the Trinitarian view says that there are 3 separate gods and 1 or 2 of them help the 3rd to create. The is one God in 3 persons, who created all things, all 3 persons of the Godhead participated in creation, there was no separate god who "helped in the creation of the world".
"How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?"
And yet again you are trying to understand the Trinitarian view from your erroneous Unitarian point of view. There is one God in 3 persons. God is spirit (John 4:24), meaning He is not limited to the temporal existence of created things such as matter and energy. Notice, God is spirit, not God is a spirit. The Father is spirit, the Son is spirit (and at the same time is also flesh since He is incarnate), and the Holy Spirit is spirit and is also the Spirit. The one God is spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, sent by the Father and Son. In regards to God, "spirit" is being (some might use the term "substance"), and thus number does not apply any more than it would if I asked you how many flesh are in you. In regards to the person of the Holy Spirit, "spirit" refers not only to being or substance but also to subsistence, the Spirit exists as "the Holy Spirit". It is not right to call the Holy Spirit "a spirit", but rather "The Spirit", but if it helps you to understand the distinction between being spirit and the Spirit, then consider the Spirit as a spirit (even though the term does not do justice to the fact that the Spirit is unique and not a mere spirit), something which can be numbered. There is one Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, but all 3 persons of the Trinity are spirit because God is spirit.
Abraham recognized the man who stay with him as God. You have conviently ignored the fact that there are several examples in the Old Testament of somebody seeing God, and then there are verses saying that no man has seen God but the Son has made Him known. Has any man see God or not?
You questions regarding Trinitarian views are asked from a Unitarian view point.
"How many Lords are there?"
For example the above question assumes that the Trinitarian view holds to 3 separate gods, each being "a lord". There is one Lord God in 3 persons.
"How many persons helped in the creation of the world?"
Again you assume that the Trinitarian view says that there are 3 separate gods and 1 or 2 of them help the 3rd to create. The is one God in 3 persons, who created all things, all 3 persons of the Godhead participated in creation, there was no separate god who "helped in the creation of the world".
"How many Spirits are there in the Godhead?"
And yet again you are trying to understand the Trinitarian view from your erroneous Unitarian point of view. There is one God in 3 persons. God is spirit (John 4:24), meaning He is not limited to the temporal existence of created things such as matter and energy. Notice, God is spirit, not God is a spirit. The Father is spirit, the Son is spirit (and at the same time is also flesh since He is incarnate), and the Holy Spirit is spirit and is also the Spirit. The one God is spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, sent by the Father and Son. In regards to God, "spirit" is being (some might use the term "substance"), and thus number does not apply any more than it would if I asked you how many flesh are in you. In regards to the person of the Holy Spirit, "spirit" refers not only to being or substance but also to subsistence, the Spirit exists as "the Holy Spirit". It is not right to call the Holy Spirit "a spirit", but rather "The Spirit", but if it helps you to understand the distinction between being spirit and the Spirit, then consider the Spirit as a spirit (even though the term does not do justice to the fact that the Spirit is unique and not a mere spirit), something which can be numbered. There is one Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, but all 3 persons of the Trinity are spirit because God is spirit.
I think you made a “Type-O”. Did you mean to say “The man who stayed with him as God” or did you mean “The Men who stay with him as God”?
Again this is not a Separate Person being revealed in the Godhead. God simply manifested himself to Abraham. Why does this require a separate person? Do you believe in the Omnipresence of God? Do you not believe that God is Big enough to reveal himself to someone and at the same time be everywhere else?
Man has seen God as the Son of God.
You can tell me all day long that you don’t believe in three separate Lords, Gods, Spirits, etc. But the concept in your mind already lets me know that when you pray you have to pray to three separate people.
When you call God three separate Persons you mean that there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
That makes the Father Lord, The Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. That means you have three separate Lords.
If you say the Father is Spirit, The Son is Spirit and The Holy Spirit is Spirit you are telling me you have Three distinct spirits.
May I please have a yes or a No on this last question.
Did God the Father, council with God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost? Were three separate persons present. If you say yes to anyone of these than you agree that God was not alone and you agree that God does not work all things after the counsel of his own will.
You are also telling me that God is a them. This is the concept behind your logic and scripture does not teach that.
God bless
Dualhunter
New Member
Yes, I meant to type "stayed". Only 1 of the 3 stayed with Abraham, so "man" is correct.
"Again this is not a Separate Person being revealed in the Godhead. God simply manifested himself to Abraham. Why does this require a separate person? Do you believe in the Omnipresence of God? Do you not believe that God is Big enough to reveal himself to someone and at the same time be everywhere else?"
You are completely missing the point: Somebody has seen God, but nobody has ever seen God. Doesn't matter how big God is. The Son reveals the Father, hence nobody has seen the Father except the Son who reveals Him.
You are not answering my questions because you cannot. Instead you avoid the relevant points and attempt to divert attention away by asking more questions.
Over and over again you misrepresent the Trinitarian view, treating it as a triad rather than a triunity. You've often ignored what I've stated in my posts. I wasted enough of my time with you. If you want to understand the nature of God, you'll have to ask God to help you but first you'll also have to drop your erroneous view of the Gospel.
I leave you with the following:
1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. - John 1:1-3 NASB emphasis added
2 (4) in these last days (5) has spoken to us in (6) His Son, whom He appointed (7) heir of all things, (8) through whom also He made the (9) world. - Hebrews 1:2 NASB emphasis added
[ November 18, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]
"Again this is not a Separate Person being revealed in the Godhead. God simply manifested himself to Abraham. Why does this require a separate person? Do you believe in the Omnipresence of God? Do you not believe that God is Big enough to reveal himself to someone and at the same time be everywhere else?"
You are completely missing the point: Somebody has seen God, but nobody has ever seen God. Doesn't matter how big God is. The Son reveals the Father, hence nobody has seen the Father except the Son who reveals Him.
You are not answering my questions because you cannot. Instead you avoid the relevant points and attempt to divert attention away by asking more questions.
Over and over again you misrepresent the Trinitarian view, treating it as a triad rather than a triunity. You've often ignored what I've stated in my posts. I wasted enough of my time with you. If you want to understand the nature of God, you'll have to ask God to help you but first you'll also have to drop your erroneous view of the Gospel.
I leave you with the following:
1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. - John 1:1-3 NASB emphasis added
2 (4) in these last days (5) has spoken to us in (6) His Son, whom He appointed (7) heir of all things, (8) through whom also He made the (9) world. - Hebrews 1:2 NASB emphasis added
[ November 18, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]
Sir, I am not missing the point at all. God has always wanted to reveal himself to man. God the Father revealed himself to Abraham as a Man.
YOu dont have to answer me but how could this even pertain to the Son of God? The Son was not yet begotten.
You are right the Son does reveal the Father. He is the Express image of his person (Hebrews 1:3)
If I could only get you to that the "Son" pertains to the Flesh.
The Father revealed himself by the "Son". 1 Tim 3:16 lets us know that God (Theos) manifested himself in the Flesh. Or we could simply say that God made himself known by the Flesh (Son).
The Son is not a seperate Person. The Son is simply another way God chose to make himself known to Israel.
The term we use for God in his absolute Spirit form is the "Father". No man has never seen God in his Spirit Form. A Spirit is invisible. And even if we could see it we could not live (Exo 33:20)
But the Father made himself known via the "Son". And the Son is Not a seperate Person. The Son is none other than the Father revealed (manifested) in the Flesh. (1 Tim 3:16)
What have I not answered? The only reason why I ask questions is to establish a point that you and I see eye to eye on. Evidently we do not have any.
God used every possible language to declare he was One God. He used words such as "I am alone" "Beside me there is none other" "A just God and a Saviour I know not ONe" "Im an by myself" "I" "I am Alone" "There is none else" "I AM" "ONe" "Alone" etc.
And it appears he got the message across to.
Again God does not exist as a plurality of Persons. Isa 44:24: God says "I am by myself". If there were two other people there God could not say he was "by himself"
Well I am sorry you feel that way. My Erroneous views of The bible says that God loved us so much that he gave his own life(Son) for us(1 John 3:16) and that he did not send another person to do his work.
My Erroneous Gospel is the exact same on the Apostles were teaching back in the day. They said to repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy ghost.(Acts 2:38)
The Erroneous Gospel That I follow was not changed in 325 AD to suit the Ideas of man.
The Gospel that I follow is a life altering Gospel and it is one that was commissioned by Jesus Christ himself. (Matt 28:19, Mark 16, Luke 24:45-49)
The Same people that preached the Gospel that I follow said "Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Apostles did not preach a Trinity. God did not teach us that he was Triune. God said "Hear Ol Israel The Lord our God is One Lord" Deut 6:4
God bless
[ November 19, 2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
What you mean "we", white man?
I don't know anyone here or in all of orthodoxy whobelieves this.
Again, "we" don't know any such thing.
It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.
And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom
So much for John 2:9.
...and?[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]
Was this meant in a bad way?
Sir, maybe if you tried looking a little harder you might could know these things.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he DWELLETH WITH YOU AND SHALL BE IN YOU.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jesus told his disciples that he would pray that the Father would send another Comforter. We find out in John 14:26 that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost. Jesus then told them that the World could not receive him (Holy Ghost)b/c the World could not see him and did not know him. But what did Jesus say? Jesus said “But you know him for he dwells with you and shall be in you”. Jesus then said “I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you
Who is dwelling with the Apostles? The Father is dwelling with them through the Son as Jesus. Jesus will not leave them with out a comforter (Holy Ghost). Jesus said that he would come to them. How is he going to do this? Through the Holy Ghost/Spirit of Christ.
Eph 4 sums it up really well for us.
Eph 4:1 There is one body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
2 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
3 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, AND IN YOU ALL
The Father who manifested him self as the Son promised us he would not leave us comfortless but he would come to us as another comforter. Not as a man but has a Spirit. So he could be Our One Father of All, who is above all and through all AND IN US ALL
The Father is dwelling in us as the Holy Spirit.
Umm where did you get John 2:9 from? I said John 2:19. Soooooo…So much for John 2:9
I was using John 2:19 to show you who raised Jesus from the Dead. It was himself. And that same Spirit that raised Jesus up will raise us up if we have the Spirit of Jesus in us. Romans 8:9 lets us know that the Father raised up Jesus. John 2:19 lets us know that Jesus raised himself. Romans 8:11 lets us know that the Father dwells in us. Again the Spirit that is inside of the Son is the Spirit of God.
...and?[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE][/quote]
And…Matthew 26:61 lets us know that Jesus would raise himself.
I don’t mean this in a bad way b/c I am guilty of it my self. But sometimes we should listen to what people say before we start saying what we want to say.
Look Smoke Eater, I know you don’t want to see it that for even a second b/c that is not what you believe nor is it what you want to believe. Our God promised he would not leave us Comfortless He promised to come to us and be in us. Our Father is in us to day as the Holy Spirit.
God BLess
[ November 21, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
Ahhhh come on....Some of you die harders must know this one...
Will there be one throne two thrones or three?</font>[/QUOTE]One!</font>[/QUOTE]MEE, I knew you would have known it. Now you gave it away.
But I am surprised to see that no one has responded to the question.
Have you noticed that God has used simple things to show us that he is one? I wonder why some say it is so mysterious?
We dont have it all figured out but man, its so easy to see that God is ONE.
God bless
Ahhhh come on....Some of you die harders must know this one...
Will there be one throne two thrones or three?[/QUOTE]One![/qb][/QUOTE]MEE, I knew you would have known it. Now you gave it away.
But I am surprised to see that no one has responded to the question.
Sorry!
MEE
Oneness,
You have any scriptures you want to use to back this thoery up, or are you assuming it must be true because of what you believe?
Here are some questions for you.
How can God's throne fit within itself?
Who will be sitting on the throne?
Where did the 24 elders sit, where did the apostles sit, and where will we sit?
When "He" was sitting on the throne in Revelation 5, who took the scroll out of "His" hand?
~Lorelei
PS. I referenced a verse to the question back on page 7 and you never responded to it, so let us not play the accusation game. Most people haven't responded because we are tired of going in the same circles for 27 pages.
You have any scriptures you want to use to back this thoery up, or are you assuming it must be true because of what you believe?
Here are some questions for you.
How can God's throne fit within itself?
Who will be sitting on the throne?
Where did the 24 elders sit, where did the apostles sit, and where will we sit?
When "He" was sitting on the throne in Revelation 5, who took the scroll out of "His" hand?
~Lorelei
PS. I referenced a verse to the question back on page 7 and you never responded to it, so let us not play the accusation game. Most people haven't responded because we are tired of going in the same circles for 27 pages.