Only Believing Jews are God's People

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by DHK
The opposite is not true. The Gentiles (you and I) who believe on the Lord Jesus are not Jews. There are believing Gentiles and non-believing Gentiles. There are believing Jews and non-believing Jews. Those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile, are one in Christ, and are called Christians or believers in Christ.

Response Posted by JD
How do you square that with this:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29)

Response Posted by DHK
You actually take that literally? If so which tribe do you belong to?
Paul is using an illustration. There were Jews that did not believe in Jehovah, just as there are those who call themselves Christians and yet are unsaved. Paul is simply drawing an illustration.
But if you claim to be a Jew, I would like to know your ancestry. What tribe are you from?

Response Posted by JD
Yes, I take it literally. I am a Jew by faith in Christ. Don't you take it literally? This passage isn't about people calling themselves Jews - it's about identifying who IS a Jew.

I agree with you JD. Was going to quote the same scripture until I saw yours. I might add the following:

Philippians 3:3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Colossians 2:11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

On the basis of these Scripture I believe that Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians can be referred to as Spiritual Jews.
__________________

 

[Jim1999]

We may be members of the Israel of God, being twice-born, but that hardly makes us Jews by any stretch of the imagination. Just my opinion.

There is no more Gentile or Jew. Either we are a child of God, through Jesus Christ, or we a lost sinner.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[billwald]

Posted by Martin Luther????

The Historical Martin Luther thought that the Jews would flock (pun intended) to him when he offered the Jews an alternative to Roman Catholic Christianity. When he realized that the Jews were satisfied with their religion, he cursed them to Hell.

 

[OldRegular]

Most so-called Jews today are agnostic at best and atheist at worst. Unless I am mistaken only about 3% of the Jews in Israel are religious, but that is on par with the so-called Christian Europe.

 

[DHK]

Most so-called Jews today are agnostic at best and atheist at worst. Unless I am mistaken only about 3% of the Jews in Israel are religious, but that is on par with the so-called Christian Europe.

You language betrays your logical fallacies. You want to distinguish between Israel and Jew, when you can't even distinguish or define who is a Christian.
There is no such thing as a "Christian Europe," or even a "so-called Christian Europe." It is not even remotely close to being Christian. In fact there is no resemblance at all to Christianity. Missionaries must go to those Europeans with the gospel and evangelize them.
Like you say Most so-called European "Christians" are agnostic at best and atheist at worst.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Most so-called Jews today are agnostic at best and atheist at worst. Unless I am mistaken only about 3% of the Jews in Israel are religious, but that is on par with the so-called Christian Europe.

Rant Posted by Moderator DHK
You language betrays your logical fallacies. You want to distinguish between Israel and Jew, when you can't even distinguish or define who is a Christian.
There is no such thing as a "Christian Europe," or even a "so-called Christian Europe." It is not even remotely close to being Christian. In fact there is no resemblance at all to Christianity. Missionaries must go to those Europeans with the gospel and evangelize them.
Like you say Most so-called European "Christians" are agnostic at best and atheist at worst.

Frankly I do not understand your rant or the reason for it. Furthermore, you mistakenly state " you can't even distinguish or define who is a Christian."

I did not attempt to distinguish or define who is a Christian if you will calm down and read the post. I can define what constitutes a Christian. Only God knows who are the true believers, His elect. I see some people that I believe to be Christians but I could be mistaken. I see people who profess to be Christians about whom I have doubt but again I could be mistaken.

Historically, at least for the last several hundred years Europe has been considered nominally Christian just as for the last 300 years or so the United States has been considered nominally Christian.

If you will respond to my post in a calm and logical manner I will try to respond in like manner.
__________________

 

[DHK]

Historically, at least for the last several hundred years Europe has been considered nominally Christian just as for the last 300 years or so the United States has been considered nominally Christian.

If you will respond to my post in a calm and logical manner I will try to respond in like manner.
__________________

Oh, I did post calmly, it seems that you just took offense at the way I expressed myself.
Here it is in plain language. The "Jews" officially became a nation in 1948, the nation of Israel, after having been scattered over this world since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is nothing inaccurate about that statement.

Here are some vital truths that you need to learn.
There is no such thing as a Christian Europe.
There is no such thing as a Christian America. American is not, never was a Christian nation. It may have been based on a Judeo-Christian ethic. Its laws may have been based on a justice system that is based in Scripture. But it is not a Christian nation, and never has been.

As in England, and many parts of Europe, Christians were persecuted for their faith when they came to America. Read up on your Baptist history and see if this is not the case. America today is one of the most secularized nations in the world, and its religion is humanism which is taught in every public educational institution in America. It in no way can fall in the category of Christian. In every nation around the world Christianity has always been the minority, never the majority. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. And there never will be until the Millennial Kingdom is set up by Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Historically, at least for the last several hundred years Europe has been considered nominally Christian just as for the last 300 years or so the United States has been considered nominally Christian.
If you will respond to my post in a calm and logical manner I will try to respond in like manner.

Response Posted by Moderator DHK
There is no such thing as a Christian nation. And there never will be until the Millennial Kingdom is set up by Christ.

nominal: being such in name only; so-called

I never said there was such a thing as a Christian nation. Reread my post but first read the meaning of nominal. If you go to a Muslim country you will learn that they consider the United States a Christian nation. Since there are so many Muslims in Europe I do not know what they consider Europe to be.

You state that there will never be a Christian nation until the millennial kingdom is set up. Are you really saying that every person in this nominal millennial kingdom is a Christian? If so how do you account for the rebellion described in Revelation 20:8-10?

In reality then there will never be a Christian nation since there will never be a millennial kingdom, only the New Heavens and New Earth following the Great White Throne Judgment. What in reality we will have is described as follows:

Revelation 21:1-4
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Much better than any millennial kingdom don't you think?
___

 

[DHK]

nominal: being such in name only; so-called

I never said there was such a thing as a Christian nation. Reread my post but first read the meaning of nominal. If you go to a Muslim country you will learn that they consider the United States a Christian nation. Since there are so many Muslims in Europe I do not know what they consider Europe to be.

Yes, the Muslims think that nations like America are Christian nations, and they need to be corrected when they do say things like that. Education is a great tool. Just because the Muslims say things doesn't make them true, does it?

You state that there will never be a Christian nation until the millennial kingdom is set up. Are you really saying that every person in this nominal millennial kingdom is a Christian? If so how do you account for the rebellion described in Revelation 20:8-10?

I truly hope that you are not that naive.
The first theocracy was when God, through Moses, formed Israel into a theocracy at Mount Sinai, giving them the law, and God was their King. It remained that way until they rejected God and went to Samuel demanding a king like the other nations. From a theocracy they went to a monarchy. Even within the theocracy of Moses time there were unbelievers. But it was still a nation under one God--Jehovah; a theocracy.

The Millennial Kingdom will be a Kingdom ruled by Christ Himself. He will rule with a rod of iron--perfect justice. At the end any enemies that rise up against Him will be consumed with fire. We as believers will reign and rule with him. There is no "nominal MK." Are suggesting that Christ himself is "nominal."? That would be heresy, wouldn't it? He Himself will be ruling and His rule will be just--perfectly just. The curse will be lifted.

In reality then there will never be a Christian nation since there will never be a millennial kingdom, only the New Heavens and New Earth following the Great White Throne Judgment. What in reality we will have is described as follows:

Revelation 20:1-7 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
6 This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Six times in these seven verses does the Lord use the term "thousand years." Yes, there is a millennial Kingdom, a definite period of a thousand years. In seven verses it is repeated six times. It cannot be allegorized away ala Origen, Augustine, et. al. It is Scripture, and it needs to be taken seriously by those who take the Scripture seriously.

Revelation 21:1-4
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Much better than any millennial kingdom don't you think?
___

No, it is simply the avoidance of Scripture that does teach the MK.

 

[Martin Luther]

Posted by Martin Luther????

The Historical Martin Luther thought that the Jews would flock (pun intended) to him when he offered the Jews an alternative to Roman Catholic Christianity. When he realized that the Jews were satisfied with their religion, he cursed them to Hell.

The jews became a damned religion once they forsook the Messiah. What would you expect from their progeny? Was I wrong to curse them to Hell? Can anyone be saved outside of Christ?

 

[Martin Luther]

According to your definition Muslims are Jews. For they claim to follow the law.
Your definitions are flawed.

You may think so for now and that is fine. As you read the N.T. you will from this time forth SEE the difference between the religious group called jews and the remnant of Judah and Benjamin called Israelites, the majority of Israel was "scattered abroad" hundreds of years before Christ was ever born. Paul’s epistles will be clearer and much more meaning, and you will see the jews and their progeny as the rebellious seeds they are.

 

[DHK]

You may think so for now and that is fine. As you read the N.T. you will from this time forth SEE the difference between the religious group called jews and the remnant of Judah and Benjamin called Israelites, the majority of Israel was "scattered abroad" hundreds of years before Christ was ever born. Paul’s epistles will be clearer and much more meaning, and you will see the jews and their progeny as the rebellious seeds they are.

Here is what I see as I read the NT:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

In each case the "Jew" is used as referring to the "nation of Israel." Paul uses the two terms synonymously. He went to the Jew first--referring to all the twelve tribes, not just to Judah or not just to Judah and Benjamin. In Rom.12:17, all the 12 tribes kept the law, not just two of them. There was disobedience among all 12 not just ten of them. Also in the same verse they, at the time of Christ, were all labeled Jews. After the came out of captivity, and were once again united the word "Jew" became a slang term to refer to any Israelite. There is no real significant difference between the two terms, nor has there been since the time of Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by Moderator DHK
The Millennial Kingdom will be a Kingdom ruled by Christ Himself.

For your edification Jesus Christ is reigning now! We are currently in the nominal millennium. Nominal only in the sense that the one thousand years in Revelation is not to be taken literally. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

Posted by Moderator DHK
There is no "nominal MK." Are suggesting that Christ himself is "nominal."? That would be heresy, wouldn't it?

That is such a childish response and I deeply resent that remark. Nothing I have ever posted on this Forum have ever indicated I have anything but the deepest faith in Jesus Christ as my redeemer and as God in the flesh. Again such a response as the above is childish and totally irresponsible from one who is supposedly a moderator. Frankly I pity you.

Actually I would say that your dispensational beliefs are much closer to heresy than anything I have ever posted. Your doctrine states that Jesus Christ offered a Messianic Kingdom to the Jews that they rejected the offer and He established the Parenthesis Church instead. You are basically saying that Jesus Christ failed in his original mission. [No one was ever able to show Scripture to support that doctrine in the thread I started asking for such.]

Furthermore your false doctrine teaches that God has two peoples: an earthly people, the Jews; and a heavenly people, the Church. That error is unScriptural and is clearly contradicted by the last two chapters in the Bible.

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by Moderator DHK
The Millennial Kingdom will be a Kingdom ruled by Christ Himself.

For your edification Jesus Christ is reigning now! We are currently in the nominal millennium. Nominal only in the sense that the one thousand years in Revelation is not to be taken literally. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

Posted by Moderator DHK
There is no "nominal MK." Are suggesting that Christ himself is "nominal."? That would be heresy, wouldn't it?

That is such a childish response and I deeply resent that remark. Nothing I have ever posted on this Forum have ever indicated I have anything but the deepest faith in Jesus Christ as my redeemer and as God in the flesh. Again such a response as the above is childish and totally irresponsible from one who is supposedly a moderator. Frankly I pity you.

Actually I would say that your dispensational beliefs are much closer to heresy than anything I have ever posted. Your doctrine states that Jesus Christ offered a Messianic Kingdom to the Jews that they rejected the offer and He established the Parenthesis Church instead. You are basically saying that Jesus Christ failed in his original mission. [No one was ever able to show Scripture to support that doctrine in the thread I started asking for such.]

Furthermore your false doctrine teaches that God has two peoples: an earthly people, the Jews; and a heavenly people, the Church. That error is unScriptural and is clearly contradicted by the last two chapters in the Bible.

Double post for DHK's benefit!

 

[DHK]

For your edification Jesus Christ is reigning now! We are currently in the nominal millennium. Nominal only in the sense that the one thousand years in Revelation is not to be taken literally. Revelation 20:1-6 is simply a recapitulation of the events between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

No, he is not reigning over this world at this present time. The Bible specifically teaches that he is not.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The God of this world is Satan. It is he that rules; not Christ.
In the MK, Christ will rule with perfect peace.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
--Not happening today is it? But someday it will--in the MK.

That is such a childish response and I deeply resent that remark.

Nothing I have ever posted on this Forum have ever indicated I have anything but the deepest faith in Jesus Christ as my redeemer and as God in the flesh. Again such a response as the above is childish and totally irresponsible from one who is supposedly a moderator. Frankly I pity you.

Perhaps you didn't post heresy. But any reference to a "nominal Christ," or a "nominal Kingdom of Christ" would be fairly borderline, wouldn't you think. Christ is not reigning now. He does not rule over a world of sin. Even that statement is way off the mark. It implies that Christ does not know how to deal with sin. It implies that Hitler and such people can do better than Christ. For if Christ were King and is ruling He would now allow such things as the holocaust to happen. Your statements hold no water.

Actually I would say that your dispensational beliefs are much closer to heresy than anything I have ever posted. Your doctrine states that Jesus Christ offered a Messianic Kingdom to the Jews that they rejected the offer and He established the Parenthesis Church instead.

John 1:11
He came to his own and his own (people) received him not.
That is right. He came to the nation of Israel and they rejected Him as their Messiah. That is precisely what the Scripture says.

The formation of the Church began at the Day of Pentecost when all those that believed on Christ were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Nothing difficult to understand there either. Why you would classify such basic Bible doctrine as heresy I would never know.

You are basically saying that Jesus Christ failed in his original mission. [No one was ever able to show Scripture to support that doctrine in the thread I started asking for such.]
His basic mission was to die for sinners; to pay the penalty for our sins. He accomplished that, just not in the way that your boxed-in theology requires Him to do. God is sovereign; not you. He controls all things; you and Calvin don't control God. Christ was rejected by the Jews; they rejected him out of their own free will, and of their own free will both Jews and Gentiles trusted Christ as their Saviour and the Church was born at Pentecost.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Furthermore your false doctrine teaches that God has two peoples: an earthly people, the Jews; and a heavenly people, the Church. That error is unScriptural and is clearly contradicted by the last two chapters in the Bible.

You are clearly confused. Who taught you that?

 

[Amy.G]

Christ is not ruling now?

Of course He is.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


But Christ's kingdom is not of this world (or worldly system). (John 18:36) Satan is ruler of this worldly system, but Christ is ruler over all. To say that Satan has power over and above Christ is ridiculous.

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by OldRegular
Furthermore your false doctrine teaches that God has two peoples: an earthly people, the Jews; and a heavenly people, the Church. That error is unScriptural and is clearly contradicted by the last two chapters in the Bible.

Response by DHK
You are clearly confused. Who taught you that?

I have posted the following a number of times on this Forum:

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ]. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.

 

[OldRegular]

The God of this world is Satan. It is he that rules; not Christ.

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar? Read Matthew 28:18 before you answer.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

I borrowed this one from Amy:

1Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Don't bother to respond. For someone to imply that I do not believe that Jesus Christ is who he claims to be is pathetic. All this nonsense started simply because posted the following statement: “Most so-called Jews today are agnostic at best and atheist at worst. Unless I am mistaken only about 3% of the Jews in Israel are religious, but that is on par with the so-called Christian Europe.”

I don’t know whether your dispensational senses were offended that I mentioned Jew and Christian in the same sentence or not.

 

[OldRegular]

Christ is not ruling now?

Of course He is.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


But Christ's kingdom is not of this world (or worldly system). (John 18:36) Satan is ruler of this worldly system, but Christ is ruler over all. To say that Satan has power over and above Christ is ridiculous.

Thanks Amy for the post. I would have sent you a private message but the system is not working correctly for me.

 

[DHK]

Christ is not ruling now?

Of course He is.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


But Christ's kingdom is not of this world (or worldly system). (John 18:36) Satan is ruler of this worldly system, but Christ is ruler over all. To say that Satan has power over and above Christ is ridiculous.

I don't deny Scripture Amy:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It clearly teaches that Satan is the god of this world.
It clearly teaches that Christ will not rule this world until the MK.

Does the world as it is today look like one that Christ rules, or (in your case), one like Obama rules? I hope you don't compare the two, but the picture I have when Christ rules is far different of Obama ruling your world (America)!
And when Christ rules it will be the world, not just Obama's world.

The verse you quoted simply says that "powers are made subject to him."
It does not say that he is actively ruling over them now.