Only The Saints Were Raised...

[Brother Bob]

Why did the OT saints have to wait in Paradise? The blood of bulls and goats could only provide a temporary covering for sins. Only the blood of Jesus could take them away once and for all!

And provide the white robes. IMO, well its scripture.

 

[TCGreek]

I know that there are other ways to understand this passage, but here it is... Eph 4:8 – "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

I see in this passage the possibility of OT saints held captive in paradise and the resurrected saints at the time of Jesus’ resurrection being carried to Glory at the same time as His ascension. I am not dogmatic, but I personally feel that this passage speaks to that.

1. As you said, you wish not be dogmatic.

Lazarus was carried to Abraham’s bosom; Jesus told the thief, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise"; but in this age, with Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father, Paul says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Why did the OT saints have to wait in Paradise? The blood of bulls and goats could only provide a temporary covering for sins. Only the blood of Jesus could take them away once and for all!

2. Paul equates Paradise with Heaven (2 Cor 12:1-3).

 

[rjprince]

And provide the white robes. IMO, well its scripture.

OK, OK, BB, EVERYBODY gets white robes!

 

[Brother Bob]

OK, OK, BB, EVERYBODY gets white robes!

Didn't hurt that bad did it?? :laugh:

Also, no way under the sun you can prove what a 1000 years is to the Lord. Is this before "time will be no more", or after? :tonofbricks:

 

[rjprince]

1. As you said, you wish not be dogmatic.

2. Paul equates Paradise with Heaven (2 Cor 12:1-3).

Of course, after the Cross, the resurrection, and the ascension, "paradise" would have been in heaven. Not so pre-cross with the rich-man and Lazarus, unless "torments" is also Heaven...

I have not seen any place where my view is not consistent with the rest of Scripture... and I have had one eye open, sometimes... LOL!

 

[TCGreek]

Of course, after the Cross, the resurrection, and the ascension, "paradise" would have been in heaven. Not so pre-cross with the rich-man and Lazarus, unless "torments" is also Heaven...

I have not seen any place where my view is not consistent with the rest of Scripture... and I have had one eye open, sometimes... LOL!

If much of your interpretation is obviously based on Luke 16, what happened to "Torment" when "Paradise" goes to Heaven, since the Rich man was able to look over and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?

 

[rjprince]

If much of your interpretation is obviously based on Luke 16, what happened to "Torment" when "Paradise" goes to Heaven, since the Rich man was able to look over and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?

Can't say. See no reason to believe there was any change in status of hades. Rev 20 has death and hell "giving up the dead which were in them". Can say that in eternity there will be an ability for the righteous of all ages to see into the place of torments. Can't say if they will be able to see us. (see Isa 66:22-24)

 

[pinoybaptist]

1. Should we not see the "touching" of both Mary and Thomas differently?

2. One clings out of excitement, while the other is invited to touch to dismiss his doubt.

That, too, yes.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Hi Ed! Glad to see you are still around!

Think you are wrong on the "one day before" thing...

...

Thank you.

In God's economy (dispensation) one day = 1,000 years.

 

[TCGreek]

After the cross, Peter says that the fallen angels are being held in chains in hell (GK. tartarus). In Greek mythology this was considered a subterranean level of Hades.

 

[TCGreek]

That, too, yes.

Then, we do not have to necessarily conclude that Jesus made several trips to Heaven.

 

[rjprince]

sorry. wrong thread.

 

[rjprince]

Didn't hurt that bad did it?? :laugh:

Also, no way under the sun you can prove what a 1000 years is to the Lord. Is this before "time will be no more", or after? :tonofbricks:

1000 years? What?

 

[Ed Edwards]

'milli' is a Greek word meaning one thousand.
In the metric system, millisecond = 1 one thousanth
of a second. Anyway in Revelation Chapter 20
it says the resurrected/raptured Saints will
reighn with Christ for 1,000 years. Other
passages speak of the rule of Messiah.
I believe that after Jesus comes back to Earth
in the Second Coming that there will be
a physical Millinnial Messanic kingdom (this position
is called pre-millinnial).
People who believe that the Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom is to be interperted spiritually
are called a-millinnial ('a' is a Greek prefix meaning
'no' -- like atheistic = no God)

A-millinnialists read the following passage to
mean a 24-hour day:

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away
with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt
with feruent heate, the earth also and the works
that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

(whick is strange, for 2 Peter 3:8 mentions
1 day = 1,000 years???)

So a-millinnialists (who believe the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom is spiritual) who believe that the physical
Second Coming will be after the Tribualtion
(called pre-Tribulationists)

Many a-millinnialists (who believe the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom is spiritual) also believe that the Second Coming
of Jesus after the Tribulation is spiritual as well
(a-Tribulationists)

 

[skypair]

Does this help?

The ones come out of their graves and seen of many" were to be raptured with Christ once He had made the Sacrifice for sins. Why were they resurrected to earth? Because they had received the Holy Spirit during Jesus ministry as He had offered but then died. Realize that they being "Christ the firstfruits, they must be raised with Christ but not before Christ presents the Sacrifice acceptable to God above.

They are the "firstfruits" of 3 raptures listed in 1Cor 15:23-24: 1) Christ the firstfuits, 2) them that are His at His pretrib coming and 3) those raised postMK when He delivers His earthly kingdom UP to the Father.

So I would say the ones from the graves seen on that day are bodily in heaven now.

I also believe that all who have died, when they go to heaven (OT saints at Christ's resurrection and we when we die) receive "white robes" when we arrive per Rev 6:9-11.

I also distinguish between resurrection to Christ's throne (MK and GWT) and rapture to God's kingdom (NJ which, at the end, comes down to eternal NE).

skypair

 

[rjprince]

Ed,

I get the mil, a-mil, and post-mil part. I think you said in an earlier post that the saved are resurrected one day before the wicked dead and the Great White Throne. I could have mis-read, that happened once before.

2Pet 3:8 does not provide a "formula" for retranslating every day in Scripture to = 1,000 years or to make every 1,000 years equal to one day. Peter is saying that God does not view or experience time the same way that we do. To apply that formula -- 1 day = 1,000 years and 1,000 years = 1 day -- to a passage indiscrimately would make all time reference in the Bible meaningless.

 

[rjprince]

After the cross, Peter says that the fallen angels are being held in chains in hell (GK. tartarus). In Greek mythology this was considered a subterranean level of Hades.

Not sure about the Greek mythology part, but that not all fallen angels are bound in tartarus should be evident in that both Jesus and the apostles had encounters with demons both before and after the cross.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This is the only occurrence of tartarus in the GNT (hupoxlegomen, if I recall). Several things about these specific demons/fallen angels:

1. Their mention is connected with Noah, the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah (2Pet 2:4-6),

2. They left their natural estate/habitation (Jude 1:6),

3. Their sin is mentioned in connection with being given over to porneia

Both Peter and Jude speak of chains of darkness and being reserved unto judgement, so it would reason that they are both speaking of the same fallen angels. When Jesus cast the demons out of the Gadarene demoniac, their fear was that He would cast them into the abyss. They recognized their ultimate destiny and asked to be allowed to enter into the pigs, rather than be cast into the "deep" (KJV), or the abussos.

I link the bound spirits in Peter and Jude with the "sons of God" in Gen 6. But then that would be another thread...

 

[Brother Bob]

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

I will add this to Ed's post.

Psa 50:10For every beast of the forest [is] mine, [and] the cattle upon a thousand hills.

They all belong to Him, not just a thousand in our number but a thousand in His number.

Rev 10:6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Does this, the above, take place before the thousand year reign (below) or after????

Rev 20:1¶And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 

[Brother Bob]

The ones come out of their graves and seen of many" were to be raptured with Christ once He had made the Sacrifice for sins. Why were they resurrected to earth? Because they had received the Holy Spirit during Jesus ministry as He had offered but then died. Realize that they being "Christ the firstfruits, they must be raised with Christ but not before Christ presents the Sacrifice acceptable to God above.

They are the "firstfruits" of 3 raptures listed in 1Cor 15:23-24: 1) Christ the firstfuits, 2) them that are His at His pretrib coming and 3) those raised postMK when He delivers His earthly kingdom UP to the Father.

So I would say the ones from the graves seen on that day are bodily in heaven now.

Pretty hard not to call this a resurrection with Christ being the firstfruits isn't it?

I also believe that all who have died, when they go to heaven (OT saints at Christ's resurrection and we when we die) receive "white robes" when we arrive per Rev 6:9-11.

They received their white robes when the Lord died on the cross, a fountain was opened for sin and uncleaness.

 

[rjprince]

Psa 50:10For every beast of the forest [is] mine, [and] the cattle upon a thousand hills.

They all belong to Him, not just a thousand in our number but a thousand in His number.

"that there should be time no longer" (Rev 10:6)

Does this, the above, take place before the thousand year reign (below) or after????

In the context of Rev 10:6, it would seem to mean that the judgement of God is coming and there is no more time to avoid it. It is like saying, "you have till 9:00 tonight to finish your chores." At 9:00, when the child is not done, the father says, "Time is up. You have no more time."

In fact that is how both the NAS and the NIV translate the phrase – "that there shall be delay no longer" and "There will be no more delay". So also most other translations. It is not good to build a theology on one translation in opposition to the vast majority of others UNLESS there is a very good textual (Greek) reason for doing so. Not so in this passage.

PLEASE NOTICE THE SUBSEQUENT REFERENCES TO THE PASSAGE AND MARKING OF TIME THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE BOOK!

Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Re 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Re 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (See also Dan 12:7).

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Note that even in the eternal state, there is some sequence of time).

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

As far as the "cattle on a thousand hills" passage, it is wrong to use this general reference to negate every other use of the word thousand in the bible! Six times in revelation 20, John uses the word "thousand" in a very specific, well defined, and limited manner (see above)! If you are going to suggest that it means something less specific, less defined, and less limited you should do so from the text of Revelation 20, not from general references in the Psalms.

David uses the word "thousand(s)" twelve times by my count (3:6; 50:1; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4; 91:7; 105:18; 119:72; 144:13), and in NOT ONE of those passages does the language come anywhere close to comparing to the wording of Revelation 20:2-7!

"bound him a thousand years... till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished... shall reign with him a thousand years... when the thousand years are expired..."

It is one thing to recognize that the Bible sometimes uses symbolic language, it is quite another to take plain statements and render the words meaningless in order to make it fit your particular theological persuasion and position!

Were there about 3,000 souls added to them at Pentecost? Or could it have been 1,500 or 6,000? By Acts five had the number of men come to be about 5,000? Or could it have been 1,000 or 10,000?

I would be terrified to translate and apply the Word of the Living God as loosely, non-literally, and as allegorically as I have seen some people do (NO DIRECT REFERENCE TO YOU, BB)! When it speaks literally, take it literally. This is not to rule out figures of speech such as is common in our language today – Anybody who understands English well knows that the idiomatic expression "I am so hungry I could eat a horse" means "I am very hungry". That is no reason to say therefore that the expression "I am so hungry I could eat a 32 ounce T-Bone" could not be understood in a literal manner. When the Bible says that God will cover us under the "shadow of His wings" it does not mean that He is a feathered winged bird-god!

1,000 years is ONE THOUSAND YEARS, just like it says!