Brother Bob
New Member
As Ed says; Thank you,
(I like that)..........
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Only The Saints Were Raised...
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
(I like that)..........
Brother Bob
New Member
Well rjprince; I sure want to show respect towards you. So, I do not believe that Revelation is in Chronology order. I don't think it is possible for it to be.
1. I believe the MK to be Spiritual, so 1 day or 1000 years, we can't see it. I believe it is past though.
2. I believe the man child born to the woman to be Jesus Christ.
3. I believe the War took place in the church when it was in the flesh. I believe that it was took out of the flesh and put in the heart where Satan cannot reach it. This battle was won by the blood of Jesus. The only battle you will ever read of where the one who shed his blood and died, won the war.
4. I believe what Jesus said about the end of time. "The hour is coming when ALL that are in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life, unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.
5. I believe it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He comes, the church will meet Him in the air, and then the vials of His wrath will be poured out on the devil, unbelievers, them that worketh abomination and them that maketh a lie, then the world will pass away with a great noise. The church will not see the wrath of God taking place.
6. I believe when the angel sets his right foot on the sea and his left on the sand and declares by Him who lives forever, that time shall be no more, then will all this take place.
7. I do believe the church will go through the tribulations, for no flesh would be saved, except those days are shortened for the elects sake.
Peace
BBob,
1. I believe the MK to be Spiritual, so 1 day or 1000 years, we can't see it. I believe it is past though.
2. I believe the man child born to the woman to be Jesus Christ.
3. I believe the War took place in the church when it was in the flesh. I believe that it was took out of the flesh and put in the heart where Satan cannot reach it. This battle was won by the blood of Jesus. The only battle you will ever read of where the one who shed his blood and died, won the war.
4. I believe what Jesus said about the end of time. "The hour is coming when ALL that are in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life, unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.
5. I believe it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He comes, the church will meet Him in the air, and then the vials of His wrath will be poured out on the devil, unbelievers, them that worketh abomination and them that maketh a lie, then the world will pass away with a great noise. The church will not see the wrath of God taking place.
6. I believe when the angel sets his right foot on the sea and his left on the sand and declares by Him who lives forever, that time shall be no more, then will all this take place.
7. I do believe the church will go through the tribulations, for no flesh would be saved, except those days are shortened for the elects sake.
Peace
BBob,
TCGreek said:
Theology is like eating an elephant... one bite at a time!
I would suggest the book "Angels, Elect and Evil" by C. Fred Dickason. I disagree with his tolerance of the idea that a believer may possibly be possessed, but even a Bible teacher of the stature of Merril F. Unger went astray on that one. Otherwise, a very good book!
He also happens to agree with me on the Gen 6 thing, another definite plus! Just found one on Abebooks for 5.49 delvd.
Brother Bob
New Member
I thought you might agree with #4 and #7 also??
God Bless,
BBob,
Brother Bob said:
Problem with 4 is that it only presents one general resurrection. Paul expanded on that with 1Thes 4:13-18. Also, with no explanation, it makes it sound like the difference between the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" is related to works – "done good" or "done evil". Can’t agree with this one...
You state in point 5 that the church will meet Christ in the air and that then God’s wrath will be poured out, with this I agree. You make no mention of the seals or the trumpet. I believe that the church will meet the Lord in the air prior to these as well. I do not believe that the world passes away with a great noise till after the "thousand years are finished".
I do NOT believe that the church will go through THE tribulation. I do believe that the church will go through tribulations, but not THE tribulation. Yes, "except those days should be shortened" does have reference to the tribulation, but the elect has reference to Israel, not the church. Note the three questions that began the Olivet Discourse and note the parallel passage in Luke 21, which answers the first question that Matthew does not address in his account of the discourse.
So, #2 is the only one with which I agree at face value. Perhaps because it is worded in such a plain and simple way as to not leave much room for confusion or misinterpretation.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
TCGreek said:
Here is all you need to know about demonology:
:jesus: Messiah Yeshua RULES! :jesus:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
rjprince said:
Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it! :thumbs:
It also is illogical to think that all of a sudden all the
clocks in the world stop and eternity begins.
I'll tell you a Fact: you are living in eternity RIGHT NOW.
You are living in TIME right now. Time is a subset
of the set of Eternity.
The Greek shows the NAS and NIV to be the better translation:
From Strong's:
G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case,
and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates
a fixed or special occasion; and from G165,
which denotes a particular period) or interval;
by extension an individual opportunity;
by implication delay: - + years old, season,
space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
While some fire&brimstone preachers get a kick
out of 'and when your poor lost soul steps out
of time and right into eternity -- you gonna fall
right into the lake of fire' -- it is largely metaphorical
Brother Bob
New Member
4. I believe what Jesus said about the end of time. "The hour is coming when ALL that are in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life, unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.
If time ends before this 1000 years, you can't get a thousand years for all that is left is eternity. You could say a "chunk" of eternity I guess, but not 1000 years for that IS time.
Also, on "time". There was no time as man knows time, before the earth was created, time was created for man. Don't you believe that time will come to an end? I agree, eternity is eternity.
I do misunderstand some of you fellows so, do you believe that time will come to an end, as man knows time?
Time will come to an end, I believe I said then will all the things that are supposed to take place, like the resurrection, the judgement will then take place. It is just the time for repentance is over. The measurement of time is over, for its not there.
I might be one of those fire and brimstone preachers you speak of that preaches that time will end and then you will stand before the Great White Throne and be judged out of the things written in the books, and then be cast into the lake of fire. and brimstone, where the smoke of your torment will accend upwards forever and ever.
#4 is straight up Jesus talking with nothing added by me, don't know how you can disagree with the Lord rj; I mean you completely diagreed with the words of Jesus Himself.
Ed, you got me confused to what you believe about the 1000 years. You just amened rj for saying 1000 years is 1000 years, but before you said 1 day is a 1000 years. Which is it?
If time ends before this 1000 years, you can't get a thousand years for all that is left is eternity. You could say a "chunk" of eternity I guess, but not 1000 years for that IS time.
Also, on "time". There was no time as man knows time, before the earth was created, time was created for man. Don't you believe that time will come to an end? I agree, eternity is eternity.
I do misunderstand some of you fellows so, do you believe that time will come to an end, as man knows time?
Time will come to an end, I believe I said then will all the things that are supposed to take place, like the resurrection, the judgement will then take place. It is just the time for repentance is over. The measurement of time is over, for its not there.
I might be one of those fire and brimstone preachers you speak of that preaches that time will end and then you will stand before the Great White Throne and be judged out of the things written in the books, and then be cast into the lake of fire. and brimstone, where the smoke of your torment will accend upwards forever and ever.
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Brother Bob said:
No, I do not disagree with the words of Jesus, I disagree that you quoted them with no other explanation in a way that misrepresents the whole of Biblical teaching on resurrection, judgment, and salvation!
Bro Bob, you well know that if a verse is pulled out of context, the overall teaching of Scripture is distorted. That is what sometimes happens with selective quotation and no explanation. It was this selective quotation with no explanation with which I disagreed as my post clearly indicated...
And, NO, I do not believe that time will come to an end. See the reference to the fruit in 12 months in the New Heaven and the New Earth. Will it be very different? Of course. Will there cease to be sequence of events? No. See my post. Bad translation of Rev 10:6 leads to that conclusion...
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Brother Bob
New Member
rjprince; Problem with 4 is that it only presents one general resurrection. Paul expanded on that with 1Thes 4:13-18. Also, with no explanation, it makes it sound like the difference between the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" is related to works – "done good" or "done evil". Can’t agree with this one...
Maybe I misunderstand you then, it sure seems like you are saying you disagree with John 5:29. IMO, but if you say so.
How could you say that was out of context when we are talking about the end of time and so was Jesus.
Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
You can't just say, "its out of context" Just because it does not fit. It is the context too and I make a practice to always refer all scripture back to the teachings of Jesus Himself.
If you don't believe time will end, then I guess you don't believe that scripture either or pass it off as a myth.
Rev 10:6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
I am not saying there will not be events in a space. I don't know what you should call it, but I find no trouble believing the scripture for there was no time before the earth was created.
I know we differ, but I am trying to post as best I can.
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Bro Bob,
Context is not just the four or five verses in the immediate context. One must consider the context of the chapter, the group of chapters, the whole book, OT or NT and the whole Bible. Will try to respond to the John 5 passage tomorrow, have a pretty full day on schedule.
For now, did you see my earlier post regarding "that there should be time no longer"?
I recall that the Wittenburg Door once published an article arguing that deep sea diving was practiced by the ancient Hebrews on the basis of Mark 1:34 – "And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases..." This was a clear statement that proved that Jesus healed people of "the bends" during His earthly ministry.
Anytime your theology depends on one particular version and is found to have little basis in other versions, you should probably take a closer look at it.
Again, the judgement of God is about to fall, and they have run out of time, they have no more time, time is up, there is no delay before God's judgment falls. That is what the passage means.
Here are some other versions for Rev 10:6
Rev 10:6
(ASV) ...that there shall be delay no longer:
(BBE) ...that there would be no more waiting:
(CEV) ...You won't have to wait any longer.
(Darby) ...that there should be no longer delay;
(EMTV) ... that there should be no more delay;
(ESV) ...there would be no more delay,
(GNB) ...There will be no more delay!
(GW) ...There will be no more delay.
(ISV) ...There will be no more delay.
(MSG) ...time was up--
(NASB) ...there will be delay no longer,
(NIV) ...there will be no more delay!
(WEB) ...there will no longer be delay,
Context is not just the four or five verses in the immediate context. One must consider the context of the chapter, the group of chapters, the whole book, OT or NT and the whole Bible. Will try to respond to the John 5 passage tomorrow, have a pretty full day on schedule.
For now, did you see my earlier post regarding "that there should be time no longer"?
I recall that the Wittenburg Door once published an article arguing that deep sea diving was practiced by the ancient Hebrews on the basis of Mark 1:34 – "And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases..." This was a clear statement that proved that Jesus healed people of "the bends" during His earthly ministry.
Anytime your theology depends on one particular version and is found to have little basis in other versions, you should probably take a closer look at it.
Again, the judgement of God is about to fall, and they have run out of time, they have no more time, time is up, there is no delay before God's judgment falls. That is what the passage means.
Here are some other versions for Rev 10:6
Rev 10:6
(ASV) ...that there shall be delay no longer:
(BBE) ...that there would be no more waiting:
(CEV) ...You won't have to wait any longer.
(Darby) ...that there should be no longer delay;
(EMTV) ... that there should be no more delay;
(ESV) ...there would be no more delay,
(GNB) ...There will be no more delay!
(GW) ...There will be no more delay.
(ISV) ...There will be no more delay.
(MSG) ...time was up--
(NASB) ...there will be delay no longer,
(NIV) ...there will be no more delay!
(WEB) ...there will no longer be delay,
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Brother Bob
New Member
My list is a little different but they all mean that time has come to an end. I don't even know what some of these translations are but they all say that time has come to an end (Judgement will take place, my emphasis)
Mat 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For the life of me, I see not thousand years in between these two scripture.
Act 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
There are other scripture to go with John. It is all the context of the resurrection, don't know why you would say it is not context.
I have studied this subject for years and the doctrine of the literal Kingdom was considered heresy for at least 1600 years, I think I am on safe ground to believe the MK is Spiritual, the Kingdom is within you. I doubt if John Darby would agree, but thats his problem.
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Brother Bob said:
NONE of your passages say or even imply that time has come to an end!
As far as the MK being spiritual, the majority of "Christendom" considered it heresy to read the Bible yourself; they considered any means of salvation apart from the Roman church as heresy; they believed that salvation came by being baptized, receiving holy communion, etc; they denied salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone; and some of Mormonism's lies go all the way back to the garden -- "we can be God!" -- Old ideas, but wrong!
Of course you should also do the math on the the 1600 years thing. If J.N. Darby came up with the idea in 1800 after 1600 years of "Christendom" believing something else, then that means for the first 200 years of church history, we had it right!
Ray
Brother Bob
New Member
For the first 200 years there were some teaching a literal Kingdom such as Justinmartyr and three or four others. Of course there were others who finally silenced the preaching of the MK literal. The doctrine of a literal goes all way back to Jewish doctrine of a time of peace on earth. Some are still standing in line waiting for the Messiah.
They all teach "one" resurrection is the point. I believe your doctrine teaches 3 more to come at least.
BBob,
BBOB,
The whole idea of a literal kingdom for Israel does not find it’s basis in the writings of the early church fathers, they only provide the echo. The voice for a literal kingdom comes from the Lord Jesus Himself!
Acts 1:3-7
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
During the forty day post-resurrection ministry, the Lord Jesus spoke of things "PERTAINING TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD". So, please understand that this was a topic of conversation and instruction.
Please note that after being taught about the kingdom of God, the disciples/apostles asked a key question – "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
So, after 40 days of advanced seminary training at the feet of Jesus, they were STILL expecting a LITERAL KINGDOM and that was the basis of their question. If they had it all wrong and there was not to be a literal kingdom for Israel, THIS WAS THE PERFECT TIME FOR JESUS TO CORRECT THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING, IF THEY HAD INDEED MISUNDERSTOOD.
Please notice the response of Jesus...
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
He said, "IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW TIMES AND SEASONS"!!! They did not have it all wrong! It was only a matter of timing, the Father would take care of that! All they needed to worry about was to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth.
After 40 days of instruction regarding the kingdom, they were expecting a literal kingdom. They asked about a literal kingdom, and Jesus DID NOT SAY... "What is wrong with you guys? You still do not get it! There isn’t going to be a literal kingdom! I keep trying to tell you the only kingdom that there will be is the Spiritual Kingdom within your hearts!"
NOPE. That’s not what He said. He simply said that it was a matter of timing and that the times and seasons for the coming of the Kingdom to ISRAEL was in the Father’s hands.
It took almost 200 years to get it messed up, and another 1600 years to get back on track. We should not be too surprised for it took quite a while to get back to the message of Salvation by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone. And I readily admit that the NT says a lot more about that one!
The whole idea of a literal kingdom for Israel does not find it’s basis in the writings of the early church fathers, they only provide the echo. The voice for a literal kingdom comes from the Lord Jesus Himself!
Acts 1:3-7
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
During the forty day post-resurrection ministry, the Lord Jesus spoke of things "PERTAINING TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD". So, please understand that this was a topic of conversation and instruction.
Please note that after being taught about the kingdom of God, the disciples/apostles asked a key question – "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
So, after 40 days of advanced seminary training at the feet of Jesus, they were STILL expecting a LITERAL KINGDOM and that was the basis of their question. If they had it all wrong and there was not to be a literal kingdom for Israel, THIS WAS THE PERFECT TIME FOR JESUS TO CORRECT THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING, IF THEY HAD INDEED MISUNDERSTOOD.
Please notice the response of Jesus...
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
He said, "IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW TIMES AND SEASONS"!!! They did not have it all wrong! It was only a matter of timing, the Father would take care of that! All they needed to worry about was to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth.
After 40 days of instruction regarding the kingdom, they were expecting a literal kingdom. They asked about a literal kingdom, and Jesus DID NOT SAY... "What is wrong with you guys? You still do not get it! There isn’t going to be a literal kingdom! I keep trying to tell you the only kingdom that there will be is the Spiritual Kingdom within your hearts!"
NOPE. That’s not what He said. He simply said that it was a matter of timing and that the times and seasons for the coming of the Kingdom to ISRAEL was in the Father’s hands.
It took almost 200 years to get it messed up, and another 1600 years to get back on track. We should not be too surprised for it took quite a while to get back to the message of Salvation by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone. And I readily admit that the NT says a lot more about that one!
There is a "sticky" detail that the rapture is like a resurrection in that in both, the body comes out of the ground. But see, in this case, the resurrection to the earth preceded the rapture part to heaven.Brother Bob said:
Consider this too, Bob. We church beleivers are resurrected to the earth already in Christ. That is what baptism pictures as really happened when we trusted Christ.
However, the OT saints weren't resurrected by their belief. They will be resurrected to the earth before the MK and raptured afterward. So the question is, if this is the MK, where are the OT saints?
No, they weren't even IN heaven when Christ died on the cross. They were in sheol. As soon as He brought them to heaven, they would have received them though.
skypair