saturneptune
New Member
Jarthur001 said:
And what web site did you copy and paste that little ditty off of? :laugh:
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Open View of Salvation vs. Predetermination
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And what web site did you copy and paste that little ditty off of? :laugh:
Jarthur001
Active Member
The atonement was a act of love. He dies for ME. He dies for YOU 2BHizown. He love me so much HE SAVED me!! me!!2BHizown said:
1 Cor 13...
Love never fails!!! right brother?
I know you hold to this.Christ died for his bride and it worked. He saved them.
Soli Deo Gloria! Solo Christo! Sola Gratia!
Jarthur001
Active Member
Jarthur001 said:
Grace and Peace Jarthur001,
I have not overlooked the fact that God is Holy. It was simply not part of my argument unlit you started misusing God's attribute of Love. In which case discussing His Holiness was in order. In fact you should remember my original post on God is Holy during our discussion about Universalism here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=822144&postcount=78
Here was my original post on God is Love:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=822553&postcount=82
Now...God is love and more love then we can understand. But now...can God hate?
But it is good to see you come around. Welcome to Calvinisim
I have never distanced myself from God's Holiness but it is in the balance of all that we know of God's Attributes that we find a ground in which to understand Scripture. I truly believe that whole heartedly.
Again my issue with Calvinism has 'nothing' to do with the Holiness of God. It has much more to do with unconditional election and irresistable grace etc etc.
Remember I said, and I quote:
He can exercise grace only in accord with the provision of atonement and the application of that atonement on the condition of faith.
I'm sure that will get me an eviction notice from the Calvinist Party. :laugh:
Now we need to work on this word you keep using "arbitrary".
This is a stawman and a bogus claim and has been shown as that tons of time. Are you ready to see it again?
As long as Calvinism asserts unconditional election void of the response of faith by an accepting person I see no way of characterizing salvation other than the arbitrary act of an arbitrary god.
But in all serousness I really would like to, at least, understand how you reach this position without Islamic fatalism creeping in as it appears to do.
Don't get be wrong I have a very firm desire to understand Calvinism but so far I honestly find it extremely unreasonable and not a plan of salvation that I would attribute to a Just (i.e holy) and Merciful (i.e. loving) God.
Regardless I have had a wonderful time discussing this topic with you and find it very educational.
Peace and God Bless.
DeaconDean
New Member
Blammo said:
Yes John Calvin did have one person burned at the stake. But by the same standard, the Catholics burned a whole lot more than one.
You know, I personally thank God that men such as John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Zwingly and others had the courage to stand up to the mighty Roman Catholic Church. If it hadn't been for men such as these, we would still be subjects of the Catholic church. Now whether you subscribe to Calvinism or not doesn't matter. But to bash someone because they subscribe to Calvinism makes you no better than the rest. It is a fact that no theologian has ever been 100% right. The only theologian who was, was Jesus Christ. I just happen to think that Calvin was right on many areas of theology, not all to be sure, but he is pretty reliable. I don't bash nobody for not subscribing to calvinism. Yet even here, there are those who want calvinism abolished. I get bashed for preaching baptist doctrine. I get bashed because I happen to subscribe to Calvinism. I get bashed because I subscribe to Jesus Christ. So when Jesus said they would persecute you because they persecuted me, means that I'll face it to. Just as the RCC made Calvin a target, I'm a target too. See the parallel? So go ahead and bash us calvinists, I'll just say God Bless you in your convictions and leave it at that.
Yes I'm Calvinist, so go ahead, bash all you want. I say God Bless you all, richly!
Till all are one.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bound,
Good.
I'm sure you know of piper...
http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper.htm
You would like him. Believe it or not..Piper is more Calvinist then I.
This is my last post tonight. Bob..thanks..you know what I mean dude.
Bound...see ya tomorrow. I have to get up at 3am...so I'm out of here...
In Christ...james
Good.
Romans 9. Eph 1.
Romans 9.. hold on. If you really mean it..and you are not just playing games. Do this. Checkout every passage about election, choosen, foreknow, etc. You will see one reason given.
Stick around. I'm sure we will get to it.
And this is where you are really wrong. I only twist the meaning...didn't you know this?
I'm sure you know of piper...
http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper.htm
You would like him. Believe it or not..Piper is more Calvinist then I.
This is my last post tonight. Bob..thanks..you know what I mean dude.
Bound...see ya tomorrow. I have to get up at 3am...so I'm out of here...
In Christ...james
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Brother Bob
New Member
Why not say, you are a Christian. Are the Calvinist so blind they have forgotten the name of Jesus Christ?
If the Calvinist could step back and see that every response they give to anything, they have to bring up "Yep, I am a Calvinist".
No wonder you are getting smaller in number. Jesus is the Saviour of the World and not Calvinism. You have no idea how foolish it makes you look to always say your are Calvinist instead of Christian.
I am a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of Almight God. There is no one between me and Jesus Christ and I mean no one. Under the Law you had to go to a "high Priest" to get to Salvation but that was just a shadow of the real thing.
We still go to a High Priest but that is Jesus Christ setting on the right hand of God in the Holiest Place of all. amen, Bless the name of Jesus Christ, the one who had the "real" love that He died for us.
You want us to say "well if God loves you why would He cast you into Hell?" Our sins send us to Hell and God has a reason for sending people to Hell and that is unbelief.
But to deny us a chance to miss Hell and give it to others God has no reason for that so there is no comparison between sinning and going to Hell and just plain being sent to Hell because He chose not to give us a chance. Big big difference such as a mountain and a mole hill.
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DeaconDean
New Member
Brother Bob said:
Are you so set aginst Calvinism that you overlook what I said earlier?
DeaconDean said:
Yes I believe in the risen Savior. The fact that I couldn't get on this board without expressing faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, died for my sins, risen for my justification should say that. But I see that you are so set against Calvinists that you are blind to that. So I tell you what, I'm gonna ask forgivness of all who posted in this thread. Forgive my shortcomings please. I now see that Calvinist beliefs are not welcome even here. So I'm gonna withdraw from BB altogether.
Please forgive me one and all.
I'll not be back.
Till all are one.
Brother Bob
New Member
There were many who lost their lives under John Calvin's rule and all in the name of doing God a service.
You say you believe in a risen Savior but hardly ever use His name. I always see you use Calvinism but never Jesus Christ.
Brother Bob
New Member
I am sorry but it bothers me to see his name used so much instead of Jesus Christ. Why would it make me bad for not wanting to use a name instead of Jesus? I am not used to it whatever, sorry.
Half of my kin are Primitive Baptist and a lot of friends and especially preacher. I have never heard them use the name of Calvinism when talking doctrine. They believe the same as you do about Grace. They may even be what you call Hyper-Calvinism, I know some of them are. I kid them for we live in the coal fields and I ask them how come when the roof if falling the Primitive are leading the pack running.
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The word "Calvinism" is intended to convey what we believe about Christ, as opposed to what others believe about Christ. It does not mean that we worship Calvin, but I think you know that. Are you opposed to people calling themselves Baptists rather than Christians? Surely not.
Brother Bob
New Member
No, the first preacher that came to baptize the Lord was a Baptist.
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
New Member
I want to offer another analogy for consideration. Bound, you have yet to comment on my response to your concerns which I offered the analogy of the state issuing drivers licenses. They issue the license but are not liable for damage done while violators are guilty of DWI. I also offered an analogy of a maze in which God could set in place stimuli that could lead a rat throughout the maze to both the rat's and God's desired end and not violate either the rat's conscience or God's sovereignty. I even offered an analogy of a bug zapper in which various factors contribute to how bugs get zapped. None of these have grabbed Bound. BTW, people on this board have refereed to bound as a brother, but I responded to bounds rebuke as yes ma'am and did not receive correction. Now either that bound is a lady who does not mind being called brother or bound is a dude who does not mind being called ma'am. Bound out of respect for your ontological worth I would not mind knowing if you are a sister or brother.
Now as to my newest attempt to draw a picture that may be of assistance to bound and to all who may have interest in this very difficult subject let me offer the analogy of a controlled burn. This one is riddled with flaws but one thing it may have going for it is that is forces an answer plain and simple.
Let's suppose that the creation of the world is similar to burning brush. The fire that results from God attempting to burn off brush results in what some view as a controlled burn, while others view the burn as resulting in catastrophic loss of wildlife. In truth if you do not burn off brush every so often the undergrowth with build up to a level that if it does catch fire it will compound on a multiple level the devastation of a wild fire. So since God knows the future and set fire to the brush, can we say that resulting loss was factored into God's thinking? But one other factor should be considered, all of the wildlife's training and survival instincts have been provided by God, so that everything thing known about fire was provided by God, ie the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. God set the fire and yet God also gave the wildlife the means by which to survive forest fires. So how can we now view the loss of life due to the controlled burn that God determine to bring into existence?
From my point of view because God is sovereign therefore any and all perceived loss can be recovered and any loss that is not recovered is predetermined to be an acceptable loss or else God would not be perfect because the controlled burn would have in that case lost containment and resulted in an out of control burn which would have incurred unacceptable or undesired loss.
Now one of two things is true in this analogy: either it is a controlled burn or it is an out of control run away inferno! Which is it?
Now as to my newest attempt to draw a picture that may be of assistance to bound and to all who may have interest in this very difficult subject let me offer the analogy of a controlled burn. This one is riddled with flaws but one thing it may have going for it is that is forces an answer plain and simple.
Let's suppose that the creation of the world is similar to burning brush. The fire that results from God attempting to burn off brush results in what some view as a controlled burn, while others view the burn as resulting in catastrophic loss of wildlife. In truth if you do not burn off brush every so often the undergrowth with build up to a level that if it does catch fire it will compound on a multiple level the devastation of a wild fire. So since God knows the future and set fire to the brush, can we say that resulting loss was factored into God's thinking? But one other factor should be considered, all of the wildlife's training and survival instincts have been provided by God, so that everything thing known about fire was provided by God, ie the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. God set the fire and yet God also gave the wildlife the means by which to survive forest fires. So how can we now view the loss of life due to the controlled burn that God determine to bring into existence?
From my point of view because God is sovereign therefore any and all perceived loss can be recovered and any loss that is not recovered is predetermined to be an acceptable loss or else God would not be perfect because the controlled burn would have in that case lost containment and resulted in an out of control burn which would have incurred unacceptable or undesired loss.
Now one of two things is true in this analogy: either it is a controlled burn or it is an out of control run away inferno! Which is it?
Brother Bob
New Member
I really doubt if you need to ask that for I have never said nothing about following anyone except the Lord. Certainly not Calvinism.
Brother Bob
New Member
I will offer this up and then I am going to bed. Why did it repent God He had made man? Why did He say I will destroy man from the face of the earth because his heart is evil? have a good night, peace
DeaconDean
New Member
An apology
I tell you what Pastor Bob. Since you are so openly hostil to anybody who subscribes to Calvinism, I'll take my Calvinist Theology along with my belief in the risen Savior Jesus Christ and leave the forum. You are so dead set against Calvinists that it is obvious from your posts. Personally, if you want to subscribe to John Wesly and Arminianism, fine, God Bless you brother. I just so happen to not subscribe to John Wesly. I'm Calvinist by choice. And as long as people like yourself are here to bash those who are Calvinist, we'll never get along. So I guess it will make you happy that there'll be one less Calvinist here. I'm going to take my Calvinist theology and leave the forum. It obviously isn't welcome here and logiclly, anybody who subscribes to Calvinism isn't welcome also. For example: I was accused of "Why not say, you are a Christian. Are the Calvinist so blind they have forgotten the name of Jesus Christ? " It is obvious that whoever (of course I know who said this, and they do too) said this is/are accusing me of placing Calvin before Jesus Christ. I will not stand for that neither. So rather than offend you, I'll leave the forum.
So please forgive my Calvinist theology, and my belief in the risen Savior as offensive to you personally.
I ask all who post in this forum to forgive me. I ask that you forgive my shortcomings. And I'll do one better, I'll ask the Almighty God, the Savior Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to bless you personally, and all others so richly that your "cup overfloweth." I'm outta this forum!
God Bless and Goodbye
Till all are one.
I tell you what Pastor Bob. Since you are so openly hostil to anybody who subscribes to Calvinism, I'll take my Calvinist Theology along with my belief in the risen Savior Jesus Christ and leave the forum. You are so dead set against Calvinists that it is obvious from your posts. Personally, if you want to subscribe to John Wesly and Arminianism, fine, God Bless you brother. I just so happen to not subscribe to John Wesly. I'm Calvinist by choice. And as long as people like yourself are here to bash those who are Calvinist, we'll never get along. So I guess it will make you happy that there'll be one less Calvinist here. I'm going to take my Calvinist theology and leave the forum. It obviously isn't welcome here and logiclly, anybody who subscribes to Calvinism isn't welcome also. For example: I was accused of "Why not say, you are a Christian. Are the Calvinist so blind they have forgotten the name of Jesus Christ? " It is obvious that whoever (of course I know who said this, and they do too) said this is/are accusing me of placing Calvin before Jesus Christ. I will not stand for that neither. So rather than offend you, I'll leave the forum.
So please forgive my Calvinist theology, and my belief in the risen Savior as offensive to you personally.
I ask all who post in this forum to forgive me. I ask that you forgive my shortcomings. And I'll do one better, I'll ask the Almighty God, the Savior Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to bless you personally, and all others so richly that your "cup overfloweth." I'm outta this forum!
God Bless and Goodbye
Till all are one.
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