Open View of Salvation vs. Predetermination

[J.D.]

So "the measure of faith" in Rom 12 is not saving faith?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, if it was all men would be saved. It will lead you to Salvation though if you will let it.

 

[J.D.]

So then every man has faith, but not every man has saving faith, is that what you are saying? If so, then how does a man exercise faith if he does not have it to exercise it?

 

[Brother Bob]

One Scripture says "all men have not faith" so that which you have can be taken away.
The measure of faith as I told you is enough for you to believe there is a God which will let you follow the Holy Spirit to Salvation. To have the faith once delivered unto the Saints you have to be a Saint. You have enough faith to believe the Holy Spirit when it is striving with you as it strives with all men to lead you to Grace. You don't have the faith that the saved have or all men would be saved and no need for a Saviour.

I would like for you to consider why the Scripture of "a measure of faith" is in the Bible. You just want to prove me wrong more than the truth.

 

[baptistblogger]

The central tenet of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God. This is the starting point and the highest principle of Reformed theology. Calvinism is God-centered and draws its understanding of God directly from his self-revelation in Scripture. The God revealed in the Bible is the sovereign Creator, Ruler and Redeemer. His omnipotence, omniscience and governance over all things set this God of the Bible apart from all false gods.

The God of the Bible is the holy, ruling, limitless, acting, all-powerful God who makes nations to rise and to fall, who accomplishes his purposes and who redeems his people. Arminianism--the theological system opposed to Calvinism--necessarily holds to a very different understanding of God, his power and his government over all things.

Calvinism is most closely and accurately associated with the so-called "doctrines of grace," which summarize the teaching of Scripture concerning the gospel. The Bible teaches us that we are born sinners and are thus spiritually dead. Dead in our sins, we cannot on our own even respond to God's grace. Thus, as Jesus told his disciples, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65).

Further, the Bible makes clear that God has chosen a people "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:2). Paul, in writing to the Ephesian church, states that the Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and "predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:3-5). The New Testament resounds with words including "chosen," "election" and "predestination." The issue is not whether these are taught by Calvin, but whether they are taught in Scripture.


We would like to think that we are smart enough, spiritually sensitive enough and responsive enough to choose to confess Christ without the prior work of God in our hearts. Unfortunately for our pride, this is not at all what the Bible reveals. God chooses us before we choose him. As Southern Seminary President E. Y. Mullins stated, "God's choice of a person is prior to that person's choice of God, since God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge and will not make the success of the divine kingdom dependent on the contingent choices of people."

Calvinism is nothing more and nothing less than the simple assertion that salvation is all of grace, from the beginning to the end. God saves sinners. Jesus Christ died for sinners. As Scripture promises, all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The God of the Bible saves sinners and holds those he has redeemed to the end. The vast majority of Southern Baptists hold to the doctrine known as the "perseverance of the saints," but that precious promise makes sense only in terms of the "doctrines of grace." Our choice of Christ is indeed necessary, but he has first chosen us--and he will keep us to the end.

Many Southern Baptists find predestination and other doctrines difficult to understand and even offensive to our pride. But we cannot read the New Testament without coming again and again to these doctrines.

 

[Brother Bob]

we cannot on our own even respond to God's grace.

Where is this in Scripture?

2Peter 3:
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Further, the Bible makes clear that God has chosen a people "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:2). Paul, in writing to the Ephesian church, states that the Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, and "predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:3-5). The New Testament resounds with words including "chosen," "election" and "predestination." The issue is not whether these are taught by Calvin, but whether they are taught in Scripture.

If He is a God as you said at the beginning of this post:
The God revealed in the Bible is the sovereign Creator, Ruler and Redeemer. His omnipotence, omniscience and governance over all things set this God of the Bible apart from all false gods.

Then He is timeless and sees all. He is our all and all and can see someone believe in Him, then call him, predestinate him to be conformed to the image of His Son, Justify him and Glorify him (which is yet to come but God can see it now for He is without time). amen

We would like to think that we are smart enough, spiritually sensitive enough and responsive enough to choose to confess Christ without the prior work of God in our hearts. Unfortunately for our pride, this is not at all what the Bible reveals. God chooses us before we choose him. As Southern Seminary President E. Y. Mullins stated, "God's choice of a person is prior to that person's choice of God, since God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge and will not make the success of the divine kingdom dependent on the contingent choices of people."

I don't know anyone who says we do it all on our own but it is the Holy Spirit working in us. We just believe that Spirit strives with all men and we can either follow or reject.

Calvinism is nothing more and nothing less than the simple assertion that salvation is all of grace, from the beginning to the end. God saves sinners. Jesus Christ died for sinners. As Scripture promises, all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We believe the same. We know that Salvation is of the Lord, its just that we believe that you must have faith to get there and that is to believe.

The God of the Bible saves sinners and holds those he has redeemed to the end. The vast majority of Southern Baptists hold to the doctrine known as the "perseverance of the saints," but that precious promise makes sense only in terms of the "doctrines of grace." Our choice of Christ is indeed necessary, but he has first chosen us--and he will keep us to the end.

I agree and He chose us when he sees us believe.

 

[J. Jump]

Many Southern Baptists find predestination and other doctrines difficult to understand and even offensive to our pride. But we cannot read the New Testament without coming again and again to these doctrines.

What I find humorous in these debates is that anyone that doesn't believe in Calvinism is "prideful" or doesn't acknowledge the Sovereignty of God.

You are absolutely correct in that you can't read the NT without coming upon these doctrines, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept the Calvinistic view of those Scriptures.

 

[baptistblogger]

BP/Th has offered another analogy for discussion, in order to try to work toward a common understanding how the election of the saints occurred.

In this analogy of an intentional brush fire, one of two things is true. The loss of wildlife was either accounted for or it was unacceptable loss.

Now in the frame work of this discussion, if you believe as many here do that salvation is open to all, there is a need to look at the loss of not wildlife but human life.

He has asked before do you think that anyone will be in hell that should have or could have been saved?

Why were they not saved?

And what does that say about the ability of God to accomplish his desired will?

Moreover, the Arminians on this board are starting to show themselves to be simpletons. You keep quoting passages that require or demand faith and belief. Your reaction to Calvinism is not in step. There has been no one here denying the need for faith or even the free moral agency of man.

Because God is infinitely wise he can accomplish his intended purposes without violating the free moral agency of man.

Bound, do you not comprehend the analogies that have been offered or are you just unwilling to face the potential that you are wrong about God. It seems to me that you are saying that no matter what the Bible says, I am not able to worship a God who could create someone in order to send them to Hell.

Let me turn this sympathetic appeal around and ask all the freewillers this question: If God is love then how could a loving God atone for someone's sins only to let them go to Hell in the end?

The idea of open salvation is the most heartless of any theology and yet you think Calvinism is cruel. The notion that Jesus died only for the elect causes many to spurn Calvinism because it does not seem fair. The notion that someone's sins are atoned for and yet they do not receive benefit is even more unjust. Those folks go to hell unnecessarily and it has to be in part attributed to the inability of God to accomplish his desired will or else I guess everyone would be saved.

If the passages that you point to for an open view of atonement are to be interpreted as you do then I guess God literally wants to save every human being that ever lived and ever will live. I guess God really is an unsuccessful universalist according to the freewillers. That is a sad thing to admit to but I do not see any other choice for that view.

 

[J.D.]

One Scripture says "all men have not faith" so that which you have can be taken away.
The measure of faith as I told you is enough for you to believe there is a God which will let you follow the Holy Spirit to Salvation. To have the faith once delivered unto the Saints you have to be a Saint. You have enough faith to believe the Holy Spirit when it is striving with you as it strives with all men to lead you to Grace. You don't have the faith that the saved have or all men would be saved and no need for a Saviour.

I would like for you to consider why the Scripture of "a measure of faith" is in the Bible. You just want to prove me wrong more than the truth.

How many chances do we have before God takes away the faith that we refuse to exercise? God takes THAT faith away, right? Or is that God witholds SAVING faith from them that do not exercise COMMON faith that every man has already?

I'm trying to understand your thinking. I've avoided you for a long time because I can't understand your thought process. And yes, I might be trying to "prove you wrong" too. It is a debate forum, after all.

 

[Brother Bob]

And what does that say about the ability of God to accomplish his desired will?

2 Peter 3:
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Bible speaks for itself now doesn't it?

He has asked before do you think that anyone will be in hell that should have or could have been saved?

Why were they not saved?

Unbelief

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

2 Peter 3:
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Bible speaks for itself now doesn't it?

Bob,

You kinda of feel right into bloggers trap there pal.:laugh:

What you are saying is that according to your interpretation of that Scripture, God wants all people to be saved and since not all people are saved, then God does not accomplish his desired will.

Man, that was a real moment there when someone just does not know any better than to keep wandering back in for more of the same.

The way that we would intrepet that passage would be in reference to the elect and in that way this passage allows that God desires to redeem the elect and does not desire to lose any of the elect. Read John 17:12

12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Unbelief

Bob,

If as you say that God desires all people to be saved then as blogger suggests your view of God has to be seen as God being an unsuccessful universalist. According to you God wanted all people to be saved but just somehow could not get it done.

Sorry, that is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is able to accomplish his desired will. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Your view of God puts God is a position where he creates the world and is forced to sit back and wait to see how it works out.

One more analogy, your God is like a person betting on horses who gets to watch the race prior to betting and then bets on the winners. Something like the 1983 film "The Sting." There is just one big problem with your understanding of God. He created the world and individually shaped each person, so then to not allow that each person responds the way he created them to without a causal relationship is real chutzpah.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

You kinda of feel right into bloggers trap there pal.:laugh:

What you are saying is that according to your interpretation of that Scripture, God wants all people to be saved and since not all people are saved, then God does not accomplish his desired will.

Oh, but that is what I wanted to say. Its not God's will that man perish.

It figures you twist it to Calvinism now doesn't it?

Well, I like to think of Him as my God and He loves all His creation the same. He is not a God like you have that only love a few and lets the rest go to Hell. The whole Bible is to teach men to repent and believe and you say he can't. I like my God better.

One more analogy, your God is like a person betting on horses who gets to watch the race prior to betting and then bets on the winners. Something like the 1983 film "The Sting." There is just one big problem with your understanding of God. He created the world and individually shaped each person, so then to not allow that each person responds the way he created them to without a causal relationship is real chutzpah.

What an anology of God!!
God don't bet, in His Soverneignity He created man with the ability to choose good or evil. Had to or Adam could not of eat of the forbidden fruit. You have to change so many words in the Bible for your theory to fit. Whole, all, whosoever, every and on and on.

God is not forced to do anything especially not change the heart of men so they go to Hell. You are the one who says He sit back and not change the heart of men and I say He is striving with that man to believe and He will save him. My God is busy and its your God that is layed back apparently betting on horses. lolol

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Oh, but that is what I wanted to say. Its not God's will that man perish.

And therefore your view has to concluded that God does not accomplish his desired will.

You view that God is an unsuccessfully universalist.

 

[Brother Bob]

I would rather think of Him a one who tried than one who just picked few and let the rest go to hell.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why did you and blogger post so many Scriptures about Homosexuals, and say they denied Free-will?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

It figures you twist it to Calvinism now doesn't it?

No, because I believe the Bible is inerrant and with out error I let the Bible interpret the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. There each statement made that seems to be in conflict with another portion of Scripture must be interpreted in light of what all Scripture teaches.

If nothing else makes sense to you hopefully this will. The fact is that it is plain as day that the Bible in places refers to all being saved and in other places the Bible refers to only the few being saved. Now unless you belief that that the Bible contradicts itself then both are not true. The few are contained in the all. But the all are not contained in the few. When the Bible makes refer to all it does not intend for you to universalize the atonement but globalize the range of the gospel and to expand the gospel to the gentiles. Read John 10:49-51:

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, because I believe the Bible is inerrant and with out error I let the Bible interpret the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. There each statement made that seems to be in conflict with another portion of Scripture must be interpreted in light of what all Scripture teaches.

No you don't, look at all the Scriptures you used to support Calvinism. jeepers

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I would rather think of Him a one who tried than one who just picked few and let the rest go to hell.

Let all see this and take note because this may be the most telling statement that Bob has ever made.

He would rather think of God as one who tried but was unsuccessful that one who just picked a few and let the rest go to hell.

I think we are done here, Bob's true colors have just come out.

 

[Brother Bob]

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

Too many Scriptures that says all means all!!

So you think it was God's will that Adam eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?