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Open View of Salvation vs. Predetermination

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 6, 2006.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Is this one of the times God created them for his Glory when they were all Homosexuals? How does this show Free-Willism to be denied?
     
    #121 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  2. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    Revmitchell,

    Believe me this stuff is not easy to grasp. I have often just pounded my head against my hands in frustration. However, with due diligence and with time I have come to a point that I am at peace with the whole counsel of God. Who am I to sit in judgment of God? Who am I to sit in judgment of God's Word?

    I do not want nor do I believe anyone here wants to attribute evil directly to God. God is not evil.

    Also, I do not want to suggest and nor do I believe anyone here wants to suggest that God violates the free moral agency of man.

    BTW, blogger nailed it. He beat me to much of what needs to be said.

    None of what I have offered for you consideration is in violation with nor do I thus far dispute what you offer, with the exception that God is more sovereign in an Arminian system. When you properly understand the Reformed view you will see that it does everything that Arminian system hopes to without limiting election to man's choice. By limiting election to man's choice some very import assumptions are made. One, is that man has the choice to make, when clearly I have argued that those who have never heard the gospel do not have that choice. Two, that given the choice man has the ability and will to want to chose God. If it were not for the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration the soul would not want to serve God. Three, it assumes that God creates with a self imposed limitation. God never divests himself of power nor limits his power in anyway. Watch out for a heresy that could pop up there in argument against what I just stated, ie kenosis Christology. Christ never divested himself of deity and any limitation to Christ was not systemic to the Godhead.
     
    #122 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 8, 2006
  3. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    Bob,

    I want to try to see if we can agree on this one passage...

    You state, "Paul also said though they were all dead that some were made alive in Christ Jesus raised to walk a newness of life."

    First, what relationship does Christ death have to those who die?

    It states, "one has died for all, therefore, all have died."

    What does the death of all have to do with the one who died for all?

    Why did all die as a result of Christ death?

    All have not died but only those who die to themselves and that is not everyone. So the all is not made in reference to all human beings but to all who die to themselves.

    Even according to what you suggest, the ones who are made alive are believers in Jesus Christ and therefore it states, "that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."

    This is clearly qualifying who Christ died for and it was for the sake of those who live not for themselves but for him who for their sake Christ died and was raised from the dead.

    You have yet to interpret this passage correctly. Can you not see how this works?
     
    #123 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 8, 2006
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Lets take it line by line.
    You say:

    It states, "one has died for all, therefore, all have died."

    Scripture says:

    14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

    There is a big difference in what you say the Scripture says and what it really says. "then were they all dead" is a question, it did not say "all have died". At least I don't see it.

    15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for

    them, and rose again. (I take it that all of the dead did not live, for in order to live it had to be in Christ.) Also, this would

    refer back to 14: "that if one died for all", It would give all a chance to live but not unto themselve but only in Christ.

    I think you would have to be stretching it to hold it to the elect for no where does it mention the "elect" Paul doesn't

    seem to be holding it just to the church of Corith either.

    Now, I take this to mean that they were dead in sin and in order to be made alive it must be in Christ Jesus, that they

    couldn't be made alive in themselves.

    Tell me where I am wrong please.
     
    #124 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I grant you those who were alive were the church but according to this same scripture all were not alive.

    And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again

    that if one died for all, then were all dead: (If they all were not dead then how could He die for all is what it is saying. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.)

    Looks like I am not alone. I just found this. Now Wesley put it in better words than I did but is saying exactly the same thing and I never knew that another person in the world agreed with me until just now. amen,

    Wesley;
    5:14 For the love of Christ - To us, and our love to him. Constraineth us - Both to the one and the other; beareth us on with such a strong, steady, prevailing influence, as winds and tides exert when they waft the vessel to its destined harbour. While we thus judge, that if Christ died for all, then are all, even the best of men, naturally dead - In a state of spiritual death, and liable to death eternal. For had any man been otherwise, Christ had not needed to have died for him.
     
    #125 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    HMMMMMM? Did God ever kill anyone? Do you believe Jesus is God? Or do you, like many liberal theologians such as Spong and Borg discount the parts of the Bible that reveal the God of wrath because it doesn't make us feel good about him?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #126 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Wondered when you would put John Calvin equal to God!!

    What a sad commentary.:tear: :tear:
     
    #127 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you telling me that God never killed anyone as part of his righteous judgment, or are you just another liberal theologian who discounts those parts of the Bible?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #128 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Not telling you anything, just saying There is just one God.
     
    #129 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Yes there is one God. Do you deny the diety of Jesus?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #130 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Never, If you have seen me you have seen the Father.
     
    #131 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you then telling me that God has never killed anyone as a part of his righteous judgment?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #132 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Never, but Joseph;
    You made a bad mistake comparing John Calvin with God. Just admit it and let it go man.
     
    #133 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Are you telling me that God never killed anyone as part of his righteous judgment, or are you just another liberal theologian who discounts those parts of the Bible?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #134 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I can see this is going to get nasty. I just answered you question in the last post. At least lets not repeat ourselves.
     
    #135 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I quoted more of that statement than I meant to. I was not comparing Calvin with God, but correcting your theological error that you never saw Jesus going around killing anyone.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #136 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    who did Jesus Kill?
     
    #137 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Who did God kill?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #138 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    How old are you to ask such questions to try and justify John Calvin killing so many people and burning a man at the stake? I am glad I am on this side of the argument. because you are going to lose. Let it go Joseph? You have made it known on several occasions that you do not like me so why engage me when you know where its going to lead?
     
    #139 Brother Bob, Aug 8, 2006
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I am not justifying anything Calvin did when it comes to murder. I am correcting your theological error that Jesus never killed anyone in his righteous judgment. There is a difference, BTW, between what Calvin and others did in sin and what the sovereign God of the universe did in his righteous judgment.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #140 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 8, 2006
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