Open View of Salvation vs. Predetermination

[Jarthur001]

The divine nature of our Creator is omnipotence and holiness. He will do that which he has purposed to do, and none can stay His hand. Who hath resisted His Will? Or who hath been His counselor? God "works all thing according to His Will".



The Calvinist God is not an arbitrary tyrant, but rather, He is mercifull beyond our knowledge, offering salvation to a people that deserve hell.

And what if He were arbitrary? And what if He were a tyrant? What does man have to say about that? He is God, and there is none other. For who has first given to Him, and shall receive anything back from God by obligation? Of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things. As His Spirit dwells in me, this is the God I serve and I shall serve no other.

AMEN!!!! God choose in mercy...it says it over and over again.

 

[Brother Bob]

God is Spirit and seeth such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. If he already has them wrapped up then why would He seek them.

And we might add, what if He is a loving God who in His Soverneignty made man where he could choose or deny Him. What does man have to say about that? He is God, and there is none other, not even John Calvin. What if His Spirit strives with all men to repent. If He so desires, who is there to stop him. The Calvinist? I think not.

:thumbs:

bound; was nice enough to give you the benefit of the doubt but He is one who believes in a loving God.

I wish I was better at heaping the coal!!!!:tear:

 

[bound]

Hello Bound, you said this:

"the dignity of man"

That's near the heart of the issue. How can sinful man stand before a Holy God? Can he stand there with his "dignity"?

Grace and Peace J.D.,

I would suggest because God created each man, woman and child in His own images. As marred as we maybe by sin we never-the-less remain in the image of the Most High and in that each Human Being has inherent dignity are to be looked upon as temples of the Lord.

The divine nature of our Creator is omnipotence and holiness.

Is this all you would attribute to our Almighty Creator? Does Scripture not say anything else? I would argue that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ teaches more about God and His Divine Attributes than anything else. Would you agree or disagree?

He will do that which he has purposed to do, and none can stay His hand. Who hath resisted His Will? Or who hath been His counselor? God "works all thing according to His Will".

Are you suggesting God's Will is arbitrary, driven by whim not immutably grounded in a consistent assembly of Divine Attributes?

Who has harmed the Nature of God?

Anyone who fails to grasp 'all' of His divine nature to then attribute what is not consistent with Him divine nature would be my answer.

The Pelagian, the semi-pelagian, and the Arminian have accused God of inability to accomplish that which He has purposed to do.

This is what I would consider a straw-man.

Pelagius preached justification through faith alone, but also believed salvation was finished through good works and moral uprightness. No well-known system of Arminianism denies salvation "by faith alone" and "by faith first to last". This misconception is often directed at the Arminian possibility of apostasy, which critics maintain requires continual good works to achieve final salvation. To Arminians, however, both initial salvation and eternal security are "by faith alone"; hence "by faith first to last". Belief through faith is the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of God; unbelief is the condition for exit from the Kingdom of God - not a lack of good works. Faith is not a work...

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . - Roman 4:4-5

Note the subject of faith... [his] meaning the one who believes.

The Arminian says that God "wants" to save every person, and yet He is an utter failure at that, the most significant of all things which God may will to do.

Actually it's not The Armenian who states 'that God wants to save every person' but Scripture which states:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4

The arminian says that God is frustrated, hand-cuffed, weeping and crying while those whome He loves burn in Hell. The Arminian God can not actually save anyone, but merely wishes that they would be saved. The Arminian God is totally dependent upon the fallen nature of man to accomplish His desires. The Arminian Christ has not secured anyone's forgiveness, but has merely made it possible contingent upon man's fallen will.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! - Matthew 2:34

Forgiveness must be received and all who love those who love them not suffers in a certain sense. I believe our Lord and Saviour expresses this very well.

The Calvinist God is not an arbitrary tyrant, but rather, He is mercifull beyond our knowledge, offering salvation to a people that deserve hell.

Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?

And what if He were arbitrary? And what if He were a tyrant? What does man have to say about that? He is God, and there is none other. For who has first given to Him, and shall receive anything back from God by obligation? Of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things. As His Spirit dwells in me, this is the God I serve and I shall serve no other.

If what you say is true, His name would be Allah and not Abba at all.

I'm sorry we disagree to such an extent.

regardless Peace and God Bless.

 

[Jarthur001]

I wish I was better at heaping the coal!!!!:tear:

hummm :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :saint:

 

[Jarthur001]

Grace and Peace J.D.,

I would suggest because God created each man, woman and child in His own images. As marred as we maybe by sin we never-the-less remain in the image of the Most High and in that each Human Being has inherent dignity are to be looked upon as temples of the Lord.


Is this all you would attribute to our Almighty Creator? Does Scripture not say anything else? I would argue that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ teaches more about God and His Divine Attributes than anything else. Would you agree or disagree?



Are you suggesting God's Will is arbitrary, driven by whim not immutably grounded in a consistent assembly of Divine Attributes?



Anyone who fails to grasp 'all' of His divine nature to then attribute what is not consistent with Him divine nature would be my answer.



This is what I would consider a straw-man.

Pelagius preached justification through faith alone, but also believed salvation was finished through good works and moral uprightness. No well-known system of Arminianism denies salvation "by faith alone" and "by faith first to last". This misconception is often directed at the Arminian possibility of apostasy, which critics maintain requires continual good works to achieve final salvation. To Arminians, however, both initial salvation and eternal security are "by faith alone"; hence "by faith first to last". Belief through faith is the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of God; unbelief is the condition for exit from the Kingdom of God - not a lack of good works. Faith is not a work...

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . - Roman 4:4-5

Note the subject of faith... [his] meaning the one who believes.



Actually it's not The Armenian who states 'that God wants to save every person' but Scripture which states:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4



O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! - Matthew 2:34

Forgiveness must be received and all who love those who love them not suffers in a certain sense. I believe our Lord and Saviour expresses this very well.



Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?



If what you say is true, His name would be Allah and not Abba at all.

I'm sorry we disagree to such an extent.

regardless Peace and God Bless.

Has God graced you with a child Bound?

 

[Brother Bob]

Has God graced you with a child Bound?

So the world received Grace also right? That is why it must be through faith to be Salvation.

 

[Jarthur001]

So the world received Grace also right? That is why it must be through faith to be Salvation.

Bob, being that bound is not here...I will ask you..

Has God graced you with a child?

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, 3 of them

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, 3 of them

Good. Is not God good? It is easy to see Gods goodness is it not?

I have 3 girls of my own. God has blessed me in business and I have made my millions. But my gold is my girls. I love them to death.

Can you relate Bob?

 

[Brother Bob]

Except for the millions. Take the s off and I might be able to relate, maybe I will reach the s before I die don't know. completed another coal deal today. Thank God, yes

I have given all my kids homes and property and they all live all around me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Except for the millions. Take the s off and I might be able to relate, maybe I will reach the s before I die don't know. completed another coal deal today. Thank God, yes

I have given all my kids homes and property and they all live all around me.

Mine are all in the 20s. But even though they are grown there is NOTHING i would not do for them. Nothing!! If I saw them in the path of a on coming car...I would shove them to safty even if it at the cost of my own life. I'm not trying to sound like some hero or something. Its just that i do love my girls very much and if I saw them in harms way I would do anything to stop it.

Bob, do you really really really love your kids that much or more? Would you do ANYTHING? ANYTHING AT ALL to keep them from harm?

I'm sure you can relate

 

[Brother Bob]

Mine are in their 40's and I would do what I could for them James. We would like to think we would give our lives but hope we never put to the test. We say we would never deny Christ but, there too we could be like Peter. We are frail human beings James who try our best to live as close to God as we can and to help others in this world. I may have a different take on things than you do James for I believe sometimes to help someone you have to deny them and sometimes you have to be stern to help them get out of self pity for example. I try to prepare my kids so when I am gone James as I tried to prepare that my wife will never want for anything after I am gone. That was my goal in life and I have reached it. I am sure they will weep for me but as Jesus said and I try to teach them, weep not for me for to die in Christ is gain. Have you seen all the prisoners deny their own country James. They taught us to give "name, rank and serial number" and nothing else, but when confronted with life or death, who knows what anyone will do including you and I.

I wonder if you have lived as I have James. I wonder if you have seen the real meanness in this world. Have you ever been confronted with gangs with guns and knives and chains. Would you be so brave then. I can tell you that there are those out there James that would do unspeakable things to you and your whole family. So, we pray with the help of the good Lord that we always walk upright. Never think that you can do all this on your own James for you just can't. I preach all the time, when you die and I die and after a while there is two piles of dust and there is not difference whatsoever in them. We have our pride, different life styles, personalities and material things in this life, but when we die we all the same James.

I think I know where you are going with this James but I will have an answer for you when you get there, but you already know that don't you?

 

[Jarthur001]

Mine are in their 40's and I would do what I could for them James. We would like to think we would give our lives but hope we never put to the test. We say we would never deny Christ but, there too we could be like Peter. We are frail human beings James who try our best to live as close to God as we can and to help others in this world. I may have a different take on things than you do James for I believe sometimes to help someone you have to deny them and sometimes you have to be stern to help them get out of self pity for example. I try to prepare my kids so when I am gone James as I tried to prepare that my wife will never want for anything after I am gone. That was my goal in life and I have reached it. I am sure they will weep for me but as Jesus said and I try to teach them, weep not for me for to die in Christ is gain.

I think I know where you are going with this James but I will have an answer for you when you get there, but you already know that don't you?

We can only do so much Bob..and then its in the hands of God.

But I'm sure if you saw them about to step off of a clift and if you had the power to stop them....if you know in the end they would die as they hit the rocks below...if you were close...where you had the power to save them. If your love is as great as you say it is...and I do believe you when you say it is...for I to can relate.

If you had all this love...

and

If you had the power to stop them..

would you?


I mean even if they didn't want to be stopped. Even if they wanted to take their own lives. Even if they tried to fight you off as you tried to save them. Would your love for them just let them go? If...IF...if you have the power to save them..and change their mind..and make them want to live again...would you stop them and change there mind..if you had the power?

Do you love them that much?

And yes..I'm sure you see the picture.

 

[Brother Bob]

You know the answers James so ask your question.

 

[bound]

Mine are all in the 20s. But even though they are grown there is NOTHING i would not do for them. Nothing!! If I saw them in the path of a on coming car...I would shove them to safty even if it at the cost of my own life. I'm not trying to sound like some hero or something. Its just that i do love my girls very much and if I saw them in harms way I would do anything to stop it.

Bob, do you really really really love your kids that much or more? Would you do ANYTHING? ANYTHING AT ALL to keep them from harm?

I'm sure you can relate

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

I understand where you are going with this emotional appeal but let me point out what I have stated before concerning the Divine attributes of Holiness and Love found embracing in God Almighty.

God's holy will is an expression of God's holy nature. As Thiessen says: "In God we have purity of being before purity of willing. God does not will the good because it is good, nor is the good good because God wills it; else there would be a good above God or the good would be arbitrary and changeable. Instead, God's will is the expression of his nature, which is holy."

We are not to imagine that God can by an arbitrary act of will declare a thing to be holy and it be holy. In Islamic thought, the will of Allah is supreme and arbitrary. In Christian thought God's will is always a true expression of His nature. It is incomplatible with God's nature to declare one person obligated to the morality of the Ten Commandments and to declare a reverse morality for another. Under such an arrangement, God could reign by whim and fancy. We would not know what to expect next.

Since God's will is an expression of His holy nature, morality is rational. We can discover principles from our study of Scripture and apply them to things not mentioned in the Bible.

Holiness is the basic and fundamental attribute of God. As Thiessen explains: "Because of the fundamental character of this attribute, the holiness of God rather than the love, the power, or the will of God should be given first place. Holiness is the regulative principle of all three of them: for the throne is established on the basis of His holiness" (Ps. 47:8; 89:14; 97:2).

This is one of the most important observations to be made in a doctrinal study. When love is made the basic attribute of God, it leads to the idea of universal salvation, an lidea that finds no support whatever in Scripture. It also leads to compromise in moral issues. Love that is not subject to holiness is too ready to modify and compromise. It is only when holiness, not love, is seen to be the basic attribute of God that the biblical doctrine of Hell and atonement can be maintained. it is holiness, not love, that sends sinners to Hell. It is holines, not love, that demanded that sin be punished before God would forgive sin.

Righteousness and justice flow from God's holiness. When we speak of God as righteous, we mean that He is right in all that He does. Righteousness is an overall term that refers to all of God's dealings as being right.

God could not save sinners simply by exercising an attribute of grace. To be technical, grace, as saving grace, is not an attribute of God. Saving grace is a provision of God made possible through atonement. God could not arbitrarily save sinners this would be incomplatible with His holiness. He can exercise grace only in accord with the provision of atonement and the application of that atonement on the condition of faith.

We need to seriously consider 'all' the attributes of God when we are articulating our doctrines. When we fail to do this we serously distort the revelation of God. I can't stress this enough.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[Jarthur001]

You know the answers James so ask your question.

its really just to show you the meaning of love.

God forbid that ever happen...You know I mean that Bob. But if you could be that close and your eyes were to see this happen to you. Your kids...the ones you love. This happens each year. How a family lives though it I do not know. God gives grace in time of need..

....but I can not bare that thought of my little girl ...the one I cared for...the one I thought to ride a bike..the one that played ball with me. I love her Bob. I would do all I could to bring her from harms way. I love her. I would not..could not...just see her do that with not my stopping her. I love her.

My love is nothing conpared to Gods love. My love is just a small part of the love that God has. The greatness I feel in love is nothing like that which God has. Would you agree?

 

[Brother Bob]

its really just to show you the meaning of love.

James; I am much older than you and know what love it. I also know that God so loved the WHOLE world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER would BELIEVE on Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Now, James you can ask your question but I think I just gave you the answer.

bound is back and you really wanted to ask him so if you want I will just watch.

 

[Jarthur001]

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

I understand where you are going with this emotional appeal but let me point out what I have stated before concerning the Divine attributes of Holiness and Love found embracing in God Almighty.

God's holy will is an expression of God's holy nature. As Thiessen says: "In God we have purity of being before purity of willing. God does not will the good because it is good, nor is the good good because God wills it; else there would be a good above God or the good would be arbitrary and changeable. Instead, God's will is the expression of his nature, which is holy."

We are not to imagine that God can by an arbitrary act of will declare a thing to be holy and it be holy. In Islamic thought, the will of Allah is supreme and arbitrary. In Christian thought God's will is always a true expression of His nature. It is incomplatible with God's nature to declare one person obligated to the morality of the Ten Commandments and to declare a reverse morality for another. Under such an arrangement, God could reign by whim and fancy. We would not know what to expect next.

Since God's will is an expression of His holy nature, morality is rational. We can discover principles from our study of Scripture and apply them to things not mentioned in the Bible.

Holiness is the basic and fundamental attribute of God. As Thiessen explains: "Because of the fundamental character of this attribute, the holiness of God rather than the love, the power, or the will of God should be given first place. Holiness is the regulative principle of all three of them: for the throne is established on the basis of His holiness" (Ps. 47:8; 89:14; 97:2).

This is one of the most important observations to be made in a doctrinal study. When love is made the basic attribute of God, it leads to the idea of universal salvation, an lidea that finds no support whatever in Scripture. It also leads to compromise in moral issues. Love that is not subject to holiness is too ready to modify and compromise. It is only when holiness, not love, is seen to be the basic attribute of God that the biblical doctrine of Hell and atonement can be maintained. it is holiness, not love, that sends sinners to Hell. It is holines, not love, that demanded that sin be punished before God would forgive sin.

Righteousness and justice flow from God's holiness. When we speak of God as righteous, we mean that He is right in all that He does. Righteousness is an overall term that refers to all of God's dealings as being right.

God could not save sinners simply by exercising an attribute of grace. To be technical, grace, as saving grace, is not an attribute of God. Saving grace is a provision of God made possible through atonement. God could not arbitrarily save sinners this would be incomplatible with His holiness. He can exercise grace only in accord with the provision of atonement and the application of that atonement on the condition of faith.

We need to seriously consider 'all' the attributes of God when we are articulating our doctrines. When we fail to do this we serously distort the revelation of God. I can't stress this enough.

Peace and God Bless.

Hello Bound,

I'm sorry, but you may want to read your post one more time. This was the very reason I was so hard you you and mocked we needed daisy chains. You overlooked the Fact God is Holy. Your words...

Upon reflection regarding the general foundation of Calvinism I simply find myself in dispute as to how one articulates the Almighty who is love as an arbitrary tyrant. Now I don't say that to demean Calvinists but it stands to reason that one who imposes one's own will without consent is a tyrant and one who does so ultimately by one's own whim is arbitrary. Both suggestions are inconsistent with what Christianity professes as the nature of God, namely that He is Love and that He is immutable. To argue Calvinism force me to do great harm to both of these Divine Characteristics and I find myself unable to recognize the God that would be represented by such doctrine.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=831887&postcount=16

Not ONE word about a holy God. God is love...that was your driving force. So...now you will agree that Gods love is bound to holiness? Our holiness? aaaaw no. Bound to his own holiness. We have people on here that post GOD IS LOVE..and that is it. No..that is wrong. God is much more then love.

Now...God is love and more love then we can understand. But now...can God hate?

But it is good to see you come around. Welcome to Calvinisim


Now we need to work on this word you keep using "arbitrary".

This is a stawman and a bogus claim and has been shown as that tons of time. Are you ready to see it again?

 

[Jarthur001]

if God has more love then us....and He loves all..just as you love your kids....only more.

and

if God has the power to over power our will at any point....

In the Book of Rev....as God cast sinners into hell....

If God loves them........

As they step toward the edge.......


if God loves them and has the power to save them...

as they see the smoke...

as they see the flames...

as they hear others crying in pain...

and if they cry out...OK GOD!! OK...OK we believe you now....We know your God...we are sorry...please forgive me...

if God loves them.........

will he save them?

 

[2BHizown]

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. John 12 : 27

He came to earth for the very purpose of dying on the cross, to save His sheep, those predestined to believe in Him, place their faith in Him!
All events of life, no matter how miniscule the detail were predestined before the foundation of the world.
This in no way relieves us of our responsiblity or accountability!