Opposing the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord Thy God

[BobRyan]

Sorry about that, but I did respond to it. Look carefully and you'll see.

This is your post - however the section in bold type is actually my words.

Are you saying that you responded to that some place in the text below?

When we find "THE Seventh day" STILL referenced by NT authors by it's title of honor "the Sabbath" in Acts 13 and Acts 17 and elsewhere - and not ONE single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" -- it is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.



James along with Paul and the others were demonstrating from the OT Scriptures what they were witnessing.

Consider Acts 24:14, 15 and 1 Cor 15:1-3, for they are all OT references.

Your comments seem to have nothing at all to say about "A single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day".

Certainly nothing like that is given in Acts 24 nor in 1Cor 15.

No reference to "week day one" OR "Lord's day" in those texts.

AND no reference to "Weekly observance" of anything in those texts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

The synagogues were places of worship for the Jews. It was not for pagans or any other religion. So when we see Christians, Gentiles, Jews all worshipping the same God using the Same Bible in the Same Synagogue on the Same day - we are seeing the degree to which Jews and Christians viewed themselves as simply a faction or sect within Judaism rather than "different religions".

If I recall scripture, Christians were there to persuade Jews to become Christians. They told the story of Jesus which was not part of the Jewish worship. I think this is speculation on your part.

Ac 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

 

[BobRyan]

Agree that Christians like Paul were teachers and could certainly lead out.

But the question is "why are Jews inviting Paul to speak"? And the answer is as we find in Acts 22 and 23 Paul's continued affirmation "I AM a Pharisee the son of Pharisees". They were not simply going out to "another religion" like pagan and asking them to teach... rather they were going to well respected teachers -- in the case of Paul someone who was instructed by one of the best Pharisees known to Jews at that time.

In Acts 22 the whole point of Paul "going to the temple" and taking the OT vow was to PROVE to ALL the CHRISTIAN Jews that Paul was STILL "in the faith" of their Fathers.

When Christians were asked to "speak again the following Sabbath" -- it is not a case of "Jews walking on the wild side" rather they viewed it as Same religion -

This is also why the non-Christian Jews FOLLOWED Paul and Barnabas around from city to city and harassed them. They realized that this sect of Judaism was easily "invited into the Synagogue" these men were themselves JEWS and not just any Jews - Paul was a well know leader of Jews.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

This is your post - however the section in bold type is actually my words.

Are you saying that you responded to that some place in the text below?




Your comments seem to have nothing at all to say about "A single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day".

Certainly nothing like that is given in Acts 24 nor in 1Cor 15.

No reference to "week day one" OR "Lord's day" in those texts.

AND no reference to "Weekly observance" of anything in those texts.

in Christ,

Bob

James reference is in Acts 15 and Paul in 13, both referring to the OT Sabbtah. The is my response. Sorry you didn't find it detailed enough.

 

[trustitl]

The synagogues were places of worship for the Jews. It was not for pagans or any other religion. So when we see Christians, Gentiles, Jews all worshipping the same God using the Same Bible in the Same Synagogue on the Same day - we are seeing the degree to which Jews and Christians viewed themselves as simply a faction or sect within Judaism rather than "different religions".
Bob

"the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul" and then they went and worshipped together?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -

When we find "THE Seventh day" STILL referenced by NT authors by it's title of honor "the Sabbath" in Acts 13 and Acts 17 and elsewhere - and not ONE single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" -- it is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.


Quote:
When we find in Acts 15 that the dispute about Gentiles vs Jews and the need to be fully informed about scripture -- James observes that the scriptures as written by Moses are already available to them being "preached every Sabbath" so that they only need to be reminded of a few details regarding food offerred to idols and the OT prohibition of eating meat with blood in it. This meant that just as Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in the OT -- neither would they have that burden added to them in the NT -- for the rule was to be "scripture" not the tradition of the Jews.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

Originally Posted by TCGreek

Bob said: When we find "THE Seventh day" STILL referenced by NT authors by it's title of honor "the Sabbath" in Acts 13 and Acts 17 and elsewhere - and not ONE single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" -- it is "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.



James along with Paul and the others were demonstrating from the OT Scriptures what they were witnessing.

Consider Acts 24:14, 15 and 1 Cor 15:1-3, for they are all OT references.

James reference is in Acts 15 and Paul in 13, both referring to the OT Sabbtah. The is my response. Sorry you didn't find it detailed enough.

THanks. It looked to me like the reference was to Acts 24 and 1Cor 15.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul" and then they went and worshipped together?

You may find Acts 13 instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

THanks. It looked to me like the reference was to Acts 24 and 1Cor 15.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I went back over all my posts to figure out what's happening with these references. I think there's a mix up somewhere.

 

[TCGreek]

Originally Posted by TCGreek
In this whole discussion, we need to differentiate between Judaism and Christianity.

Jews still met on the sabbath but Christians on Sunday, the day Christ was raised.


BobRyan
You are making an assertion - you are not making a "sola scriptura" Bible statement of fact.

GE
Your reply to TC is euphemistic, to say the least.

TC, if Jews still met on the sabbath but not Christians, what were the many many, who many many times, on the Sabbath worshipped? And, Who, the 'Jesus', you know, that man from Nazareth? What was He? He went to church every Sabbath, did He not? Sure, he was a Jew; does that mean he was not -- The Christian of all Christians, The Christ?

GE, I really don't know how to respond to your argument from the Christ, the Christian of all Christians.

This premise ignores so much of what Scripture says.

Then which 'Christians' "... met on Sunday, the day Christ was raised"? Which 'Christians' met on the day Christ was raised? Oh yes! I remember - vividly - Jesus, on Sunday after sunset - found them, quote:"thronged together in the upper room STILL" -- apparently in the very room they were "crowded in together out of fear for the Jews", from the day that Jesus had been crucified, that is, from before the Sabbath Day, so that during all of that Sabbath Day, they already would have been 'gathered together' -- at least in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THEY WERE during Sunday and through Sunday into the First Day of the week, Monday!

We have two clear references to Sunday worship (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1, 2).

 

[LeBuick]

You may find Acts 13 instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

The key to Acts 13 regarding this subject is here. They were gathered on the Sabbath and were with the Jews in order to first give them a chance of salvation. Paul was recognized as a Jew (not Christian) and was allowed to speak. But as he began to convert Jews and especially Gentiles he was chased away.

You are making it sound like Jews and Christians co-existed and worshipped as one group and that just isn't so. Paul preached on the Sabbath because the Jews met on the Sabbath. The Gentiles came back the next Sabbath because they knew that's what the Jews did. I don't see this as confirmation.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Ac 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

I don't see why you keep referring to Acts 13 as it doesn't support Sabbath worship. It only shows the Jews worshipped on the Sabbath.

 

[TCGreek]

The key to Acts 13 regarding this subject is here. They were gathered on the Sabbath and were with the Jews in order to first give them a chance of salvation. Paul was recognized as a Jew (not Christian) and was allowed to speak. But as he began to convert Jews and especially Gentiles he was chased away.

This is clear from the Scripture. Why can't we all accept this, I don't know?

[QUOTEYou are making it sound like Jews and Christians co-existed and worshipped as one group and that just isn't so. Paul preached on the Sabbath because the Jews met on the Sabbath. The Gentiles came back the next Sabbath because they knew that's what the Jews did. I don't see this as confirmation.[/QUOTE]

Good point, Lebuick. We need not make the text say more than what is actually there.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Ac 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

I don't see why you keep referring to Acts 13 as it doesn't support Sabbath worship. It only shows the Jews worshipped on the Sabbath.

"It doesn't support Sabbath worship."

 

[BobRyan]

Back to basics --

Recall that as TCGreek already stated the ONLY reason for someone with TCGreek's perspective to BE there on a Sabbath is to convince those INTERESTED and ACCEPTING listeners to "join us TOMORROW at our Sunday worship service in memory of the Messiah's resurrection" etc.

The VERY thing that is NOT happening in Acts 13 EVEN with Gentiles -- let alone Jews!! And this is something ALL agree with in Acts 13.

So just staying with the obvious that ALL agree to we still have -

Originally Posted by BobRyan
If we keep this "sola scriptura" then we all agree on the following -- that the following statements are not found in scripture.

A.We all agree we are not going to ever find (IN SCRIPTURE) that

1, "week-day-one" is ever called "the Lord's day"
2. "week day one " is never called "Day of the Lord"
3. nor any text saying "Christ is Lord of Week Day one"
4. NOR that "God sanctified week-day one"
5. Nor that "God made week-day one holy"
6. Nor that Christ said "meet on week-day one in rememberance of My resurrection"
7. Nor that any NT writer ever said "we meet on week-day one in rememberance of our Lord's resurrection".

B. We ALSO all agree on the obvious fact that the following texts ARE found in the Bible.

1. Isaiah 58 -- the "Sabbath is the Holy Day OF the LORD".
2. Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath".
3. Isaiah 66 regarding the New earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
4. In Gen 2:3 God said that "He rested on 7th day THEREFORE HE blessed IT and made IT Holy" - Sanctified it on the 7th day of Creation week itself.

C. We also will probably agree that even though the above list of facts are obvious to all - you will never hear this list of facts from the pulpit.

Where we DIFFER is on "WHY" these clear yet "inconvenient" Bible facts are never mentioned in modern pulpits.

But if we go back to "D.L.MOODY" we WILL see some pretty strong statements on the "Sabbath commandment" -- as we all agree.

So it is interesting - the inconvenient facts that we can all agree to - while also finding room to differ.

 

[BobRyan]

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Ac 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

I don't see why you keep referring to Acts 13 as it doesn't support Sabbath worship. It only shows the Jews worshipped on the Sabbath.

Because a carefull review of the "inconvenient facts" is very helpful.

Once again - as ALL agree

1. The persecuting Jews do not focus on Romans, pagans etc but only on that "sect of Judaism" that they call "Christianity"

2. The open minded Jews in Acts 13 ENVITE them to SPEAK IN Synagogue worshipping the SAME God, using the SAME Scripture speaking of the SAME Messiah with Paul who continually says in Acts "I AM a Pharisee".

3. The "Sabbath after Sabbath" service scenario that we see in Acts 13 is devastatingly FOR Gentiles as well as the FEW Jews that CONTINUED to be open to Paul's teaching after that first SABBATH.

4. This should have been "SUNDAY after SABBATH" for those within the group that were accepting. Especially when we see that there is "sooo much interest" that on the NEXT Sabbath "almost the whole city turns out".

The case could not be worse for "week-day-one" focus.

The case could not be worse for "week-day-one get's introduced to this aCCEPTING (Sabbath-keeping group) as the Lord's Day" rather the text just keeps on referring to SABBATH services!

1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1207224&postcount=29

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCGreek
If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

My response in post 31 seems to be the heart of the point you are trying to ignore here.

Bob said
You have said that correctly and you have also provided an excellent "test" for your assumption to see "IF" in fact Paul was doing that very thing (that someone with your POV would do) for IF that were the case THEN Paul "should have been saying -- let's meet tomorrow and continue this exciting Gospel discussion about the Christ who died for our sins and rose again. So I earnestly and enthusiastically envite ALL you GENTILES who have been accepting this message today AND even those of you who are Jews and yet are also accepting this message today to JOIN US TOMORROW in Worship so that you can hear MORE of what we discussed today".

So it is "instructive" that instead of that -- the gentiles must wait "until the next Sabbath" to hear more of the gospel that they are sooooo eager to hear -- that "practically the entire city shows up". Acts 13.

As you have stated -- if Paul were using your model it would have been in the form "Glad to see so many of you gentiles are accepting this message - please Join us tomorrow for our day of worhsip in honor of the Christ I have been preaching here today and his Resurrection event on week-day-one".

This is in fact - one place where we find something like agreement on this very topic.

Thanks for pointing that out.

And perhaps the highlighted in blue point is so successfully ignored rather than answered that now you are at the point of asking where the point is for Sabbath in that exchange above with regard to Acts 13.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We have two clear references to Sunday worship (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1, 2).

1. 1Cor 16 is a case where NO gathering AND NO worship is mentioned at all as your "clear case of Sunday worship". I have to think this is a little bit "instructive" to know that in your "clear cases for Sunday Worship" you are down to the point of needing to reference the phrase " save money by himself" (individually-or alone) as meaning "public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection as is our Custom - calling it The Lord's Day". A more strained interpretation can hardly be imagined for that little phrase.

2. Acts 20 has the following problem as a "clear case of Lord's Day worship service in memorial of our Lord's Resurrection as is our custom each week".

A. we see TWO events - the farewell sermon extending long into the night (is that Sunday night -- week day TWO) or is that Saturday night (week day ONE) with a long voyage planned for Sunday service instead of --- Sunday service? No reference for week-day-one rest, or being set-aside.

B. There is NO mention at all of this being a meeting to celebrate the Lord's Resurrection. In fact from the term "Break bread" we have THE services meant to "Show the Lord's death until He comes" according to Paul. No "mention of Resurrection" or memorial of resurrection.

C. There is No mention in Acts 20 that "On that week-day-one we were meeting as is our custom since we do this every week-day-one or every Lord's day" in fact we have NO reference at all in the NT to "sunday after Sunday worship services". No "Pattern".

D. There is NO mention at all in Acts 20 (which is in fact the ONLY reference to a Week-day One worship service in all of the NT) that "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" or is sanctified or is holy or is a weekly day of meeting. No "Title"

These again - are facts that all can see and agree to --

What we do not agree with -- is what do do about the facts other than to ignore them or not.

But another thing we all do agree with -- is that even with all these problems trying to straing "the Lord's Day" or "weekly observance" or "memorial of our Lord's Resurrection" out of these texts - they nevertheless ARE all that we have left as "THE BEST" and the "CLEAREST examples" in all of scripture in favor of the POV ""As is our custom we have a public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection - calling it The Lord's Day"

A belief held today - without one mentoin of those key details "in the text".

So what we are left with is grasping for ANY reference at all to "week day one" even if it is just in regard to "laying aside by himself in store" some funds at the start of each week.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

My response in post 31 seems to be the heart of the point you are trying to ignore here.



And perhaps the highlighted in blue point is so successfully ignored rather than answered that now you are at the point of asking where the point is for Sabbath in that exchange above with regard to Acts 13.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, how could they be invited to Sunday worship when Paul and others were going around founding NEW CHURCHES?

They had to start somewhere, and they started with synagogue worshipers.

 

[TCGreek]

1. 1Cor 16 is a case where NO gathering AND NO worship is mentioned at all as your "clear case of Sunday worship". I have to think this is a little bit "instructive" to know that in your "clear cases for Sunday Worship" you are down to the point of needing to reference the phrase " save money by himself" (individually-or alone) as meaning "public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection as is our Custom - calling it The Lord's Day". A more strained interpretation can hardly be imagined for that little phrase.

2. Acts 20 has the following problem as a "clear case of Lord's Day worship service in memorial of our Lord's Resurrection as is our custom each week".

A. we see TWO events - the farewell sermon extending long into the night (is that Sunday night -- week day TWO) or is that Saturday night (week day ONE) with a long voyage planned for Sunday service instead of --- Sunday service? No reference for week-day-one rest, or being set-aside.

B. There is NO mention at all of this being a meeting to celebrate the Lord's Resurrection. In fact from the term "Break bread" we have THE services meant to "Show the Lord's death until He comes" according to Paul. No "mention of Resurrection" or memorial of resurrection.

C. There is No mention in Acts 20 that "On that week-day-one we were meeting as is our custom since we do this every week-day-one or every Lord's day" in fact we have NO reference at all in the NT to "sunday after Sunday worship services". No "Pattern".

D. There is NO mention at all in Acts 20 (which is in fact the ONLY reference to a Week-day One worship service in all of the NT) that "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" or is sanctified or is holy or is a weekly day of meeting. No "Title"

These again - are facts that all can see and agree to --

What we do not agree with -- is what do do about the facts other than to ignore them or not.

But another thing we all do agree with -- is that even with all these problems trying to straing "the Lord's Day" or "weekly observance" or "memorial of our Lord's Resurrection" out of these texts - they nevertheless ARE all that we have left as "THE BEST" and the "CLEAREST examples" in all of scripture in favor of the POV ""As is our custom we have a public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection - calling it The Lord's Day"

A belief held today - without one mentoin of those key details "in the text".

So what we are left with is grasping for ANY reference at all to "week day one" even if it is just in regard to "laying aside by himself in store" some funds at the start of each week.

in Christ,

Bob

Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2 are much clearer than your Acts references for Sabbath keeping among Christians.

You are willing to ignore the clear difference between Jews and Christians.

Still have have provided no clear reference that Christians met on the Sabbath for worship.

Besides, your references to Paul and others frequenting the Sabbath gathering fail to take into account the WHY of Paul's attendance.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, how could they be invited to Sunday worship when Paul and others were going around founding NEW CHURCHES?

They had to start somewhere, and they started with synagogue worshipers.

You are not giving your post 29 statement enough credit where credit is due.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...4&postcount=29

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCGreek
If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

Your point there would mean that EVEN in the "extreme" case where there are no Christians at all in the entire area of Corinth - Paul would STILL be urging a fledging start-up group to join him "at a home" or in a field or just-outside of town -- or just about anywhere -- as long as they were accepting of the Gospel message preached that day and as long as they wanted to hear more about the Messiah of scripture that they had read so much about it... the big deal that FIRST Sabbath would be "Jesus is that long awaited Messiah... and Tomorrow is the weekly memorial of his resurrection and we who follow the Messah will gather tomorrow worship the Lord and explore more of scripture on this subject".

You seem to have given up on that and I say - "nay not so fast" -- we must admit to the logic and significance in your argument for Post #29 as central to those who do hold to your view of week-day-one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2 are much clearer than your Acts references for Sabbath keeping among Christians.

Hmm .

Alll Agree that in Acts 13 we have Christians, Jews AND Gentiles gathering "Sabbath after Sabbath" FOR WORSHIP and Bible study.

All Agree that in 1Cor 16 NO "gathering for Worship" is mentioned at all - at best it must be 'inserted' by those who favor that idea and then an agrument made as to why that is not doing damage to the text.

In Acts 20 NO MENTION AT ALL is made of bible study or a weekly GROUP meeting OR of Worship and praise.

But as you say -- when this is all you have for making the case for week-day-one you really need to view that contrast as "best".

Because the truth is -- that is as good as it is going to get for week-day-one facts in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Bob, I believe we've arrived at that impasse.