Opposing the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord Thy God

[TCGreek]

Oh...a Spurgeon worshipper just kidding

I promised a Bber I would look into his views regarding alcohol.

I think he smoked cigars, but oh well....

Well, I'm neither a Spurgeon scholar nor a defender of his personal life.

I'll see him in glory, nevertheless.

 

[BobRyan]

As a true Jew Jesus celebrated the Sabbath:

"When he came to the village of Nazareth, his boyhood home, he went as usual to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures" (Luke 4:16, NLTse, emphasis mine).

Certainly that is true.

In Acts 17 we see that in the same way Paul went into the Synagogues "as was his custom" on Sabbath to spread the Gospel.

We see it also in Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath" even in cases where "the Jews were rejecting the message but the Gentiles were accepting it" as given in those synagogue meetings.

Still I have to think that those who read 1John 2 "Walk as Jesus Walked" would not take that to mean "Honor the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God as Jesus did" -- correct?j

In fact I would dare say that as they read Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worhip" that they do not intend to conform to that text until at leas the time of the New Earth -- and then to comply for all eternity.... or else perhaps find a way out of it altogether.

I would also argue that when they read the pre-cross statement from Christ in Mark 2:27 that "the Sabbath was made FOR mankind" that they do not consider that to be valid for today -- even though "some might" consider it still valid for Jews.

And in that case - they would "offer a solution" for how their preference to differ in that practice from Christ is consistent with scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Certainly that is true.

In Acts 17 we see that in the same way Paul went into the Synagogues "as was his custom" on Sabbath to spread the Gospel.

We see it also in Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath" even in cases where "the Jews were rejecting the message but the Gentiles were accepting it" as given in those synagogue meetings.

Still I have to think that those who read 1John 2 "Walk as Jesus Walked" would not take that to mean "Honor the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God as Jesus did" -- correct?j

In fact I would dare say that as they read Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worhip" that they do not intend to conform to that text until at leas the time of the New Earth -- and then to comply for all eternity.... or else perhaps find a way out of it altogether.

I would also argue that when they read the pre-cross statement from Christ in Mark 2:27 that "the Sabbath was made FOR mankind" that they do not consider that to be valid for today -- even though "some might" consider it still valid for Jews.

And in that case - they would "offer a solution" for how their preference to differ in that practice from Christ is consistent with scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Part of good scholarship is to give a fair treatment of the collected data. Now if you're going to quote Acts 17, then quote all of it and say exactly what it means:

"As was Paul’s custom, he went to the synagogue service, and for three Sabbaths in a row he used the Scriptures to reason with the people. 3 He explained the prophecies and proved that the Messiah must suffer and rise from the dead. He said, “This Jesus I’m telling you about is the Messiah.” 4 Some of the Jews who listened were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with many God-fearing Greek men and quite a few prominent women.
5 But some of the Jews were jealous, so they gathered some troublemakers from the marketplace to form a mob and start a riot. They attacked the home of Jason, searching for Paul and Silas so they could drag them out to the crowd. 6 Not finding them there, they dragged out Jason and some of the other believers instead and took them before the city council. “Paul and Silas have caused trouble all over the world,” they shouted, “and now they are here disturbing our city, too."

Paul went to the synagogue on the sabbath, as a custom, to convert his Jewish brethren to the Messiah.

Whether he kept the Sabbath as a NC requirement is clearly not the focus of Luke's pen.

 

[BobRyan]

I said -

In Acts 17 we see that in the same way Paul went into the Synagogues "as was his custom" on Sabbath to spread the Gospel.


you said

"Paul went to the synagogue on the sabbath, as a custom, to convert his Jewish brethren to the Messiah."

The only place where I see a difference between them is that I also point out in Acts 13 that Paul was doing this to reach Gentiles "Sabbath after Sabbath" even in cases where (as we see in Acts 13) the Jews were rejecting the teaching while the Gentiles were turning out to the point of "almost the whole city" to hear the gospel "the next Sabbath".

Are you saying that I was not being accurate?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

We both know that as a staunch SDA Acts 17:2 is to prove to non-Sabbatarians that even Paul kept the sabbath.

Please, correct me if I assumed too much.

 

[BobRyan]

I only use it (as you can see here by example) to show that Paul had a "Sabbath custom" regarding evangelism in the Synagogues on Sabbath and that Jesus had a pre-cross "custom" of speaking in the Synagogue on Sabbath.

I also point out as you did earlier that no matter who discusses this subject it is pretty much agreed that the pre-cross actions of Christ were in complete fulfillment - exact conformance to the Word of God.

BTW - I can not speak for the practice of "all other SDAs" because "opinions vary" inside the SDA church kinda like they do outside. I heard a sermon today by my pastor (for example) where he argued that "intercession" is a spiritual gift and that "the parable of talents" in Matt 25 is about using spiritual gifts as given by God. On both counts - I differ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[carpro]

I had that option in there four times!:thumbs:

There is no Sabbath "problem" if one is not looking for a way around it.

There is no "Sabbath problem" for one to look for a way around.

 

[LeBuick]

There is no "Sabbath problem" for one to look for a way around.

I hear you Brother, I'd worship on sabbath same as I do at Wednesday midweek service.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[TCGreek]

I only use it (as you can see here by example) to show that Paul had a "Sabbath custom" regarding evangelism in the Synagogues on Sabbath and that Jesus had a pre-cross "custom" of speaking in the Synagogue on Sabbath.

I also point out as you did earlier that no matter who discusses this subject it is pretty much agreed that the pre-cross actions of Christ were in complete fulfillment - exact conformance to the Word of God.

BTW - I can not speak for the practice of "all other SDAs" because "opinions vary" inside the SDA church kinda like they do outside. I heard a sermon today by my pastor (for example) where he argued that "intercession" is a spiritual gift and that "the parable of talents" in Matt 25 is about using spiritual gifts as given by God. On both counts - I differ.

in Christ,

Bob

If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

 

[trustitl]

If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

And if I did, it would be to get them to celebrate it everyday.

Webster 1828
CELEBRATE, v.t.

1. To praise; to extol; to commend; to give to; to make famous; as, to celebrate the name of the Most High.

 

[BobRyan]

If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

You have said that correctly and you have also provided an excellent "test" for your assumption to see "IF" in fact Paul was doing that very thing for IF that were the case THEN Paul "should have been saying -- let's meet tomorrow and continue this exciting Gospel discussion about the Christ who died for our sins and rose again. So I earnestly and enthusiastically envite ALL you GENTILES who have been accepting this message today AND even those of you who are Jews and yet are also accepting this message today to JOIN US TOMORROW in Worship so that you can hear MORE of what we discussed today".

So it is "instructive" that instead of that -- the gentiles must wait "until the next Sabbath" to hear more of the gospel that they are sooooo eager to hear -- that "practically the entire city shows up". Acts 13.

As you have stated -- if Paul were using your model it would have been in the form "Glad to see so many of you gentiles are accepting this message - please Join us tomorrow for our day of worhsip in honor of the Christ I have been preaching here today and his Resurrection event on week-day-one".

This is in fact - one place where we find something like agreement on this very topic.

Thanks for pointing that out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by TCGreek
...the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

If we keep this "sola scriptura" then we all agree on the following -- that the following statements are not found in scripture.

A.We all agree we are not going to ever find (IN SCRIPTURE) that

1, "week-day-one" is ever called "the Lord's day"
2. "week day one " is never called "Day of the Lord"
3. nor any text saying "Christ is Lord of Week Day one"
4. NOR that "God sanctified week-day one"
5. Nor that "God made week-day one holy"
6. Nor that Christ said "meet on week-day one in rememberance of My resurrection"
7. Nor that any NT writer ever said "we meet on week-day one in rememberance of our Lord's resurrection".

B. We ALSO all agree on the obvious fact that the following texts ARE found in the Bible.

1. Isaiah 58 -- the "Sabbath is the Holy Day OF the LORD".
2. Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath".
3. Isaiah 66 regarding the New earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
4. In Gen 2:3 God said that "He rested on 7th day THEREFORE HE blessed IT and made IT Holy" - Sanctified it on the 7th day of Creation week itself.

C. We also will probably agree that even though the above list of facts are obvious to all - you will never hear this list of facts from the pulpit.

Where we DIFFER is on "WHY" these clear yet "inconvenient" Bible facts are never mentioned in modern pulpits.

But if we go back to "D.L.MOODY" we WILL see some pretty strong statements on the "Sabbath commandment" -- as we all agree.

So it is interesting - the inconvenient facts that we can all agree to - while also finding room to differ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Alcott]

Ryan, let's lay your baloney on the line. You say the sabbath commandment is for all time for all people; I John 2:5 says "He that says 'I know Him' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." And in Luke 13, vv.3 and 5, Jesus said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." So-- are those who do not keep the sabbath holy by doing no work without "the truth? and are you calling us all "liars?" and are you saying the large majority of 'Christians,' past and present, have no life, and belief in Jesus Christ is of no value without sabbath observance?

 

[LeBuick]

If we keep this "sola scriptura" then we all agree on the following -- that the following statements are not found in scripture.

A.We all agree we are not going to ever find (IN SCRIPTURE) that

1, "week-day-one" is ever called "the Lord's day"
2. "week day one " is never called "Day of the Lord"
3. nor any text saying "Christ is Lord of Week Day one"
4. NOR that "God sanctified week-day one"
5. Nor that "God made week-day one holy"
6. Nor that Christ said "meet on week-day one in rememberance of My resurrection"
7. Nor that any NT writer ever said "we meet on week-day one in rememberance of our Lord's resurrection".

B. We ALSO all agree on the obvious fact that the following texts ARE found in the Bible.

1. Isaiah 58 -- the "Sabbath is the Holy Day OF the LORD".
2. Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath".
3. Isaiah 66 regarding the New earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
4. In Gen 2:3 God said that "He rested on 7th day THEREFORE HE blessed IT and made IT Holy" - Sanctified it on the 7th day of Creation week itself.

C. We also will probably agree that even though the above list of facts are obvious to all - you will never hear this list of facts from the pulpit.

Where we DIFFER is on "WHY" these clear yet "inconvenient" Bible facts are never mentioned in modern pulpits.

But if we go back to "D.L.MOODY" we WILL see some pretty strong statements on the "Sabbath commandment" -- as we all agree.

So it is interesting - the inconvenient facts that we can all agree to - while also finding room to differ.

in Christ,

Bob

I think you left one or two out, we also all agree the disciples met for communion on the first day of the week.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Also, it was on Sunday after the resurrection when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles which is also known as the Day of Pentacost. Act 2:1-4.

Not only did the first service take place, but 3000 came on Sunday. Act 2:41. I don't think God dis-approved of the meeting.

This is also an interesting verse that seems to imply something. Paul had the collection taken up on the first day of the week, 1Cor 16:1-2

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Bob, you can worship whatever day you want but you shouldn't come to a Baptist board to prove your way is superior. At most, we'll say you are keeping yourself under the law. I have nothing against being compliant to the law except if you feel doing so makes you righteous, Holy or Godly.

Lastly, many of the early converts from Judaism continued in their habbit, practise and belief and attended the synagogue or temple on the Sabbath. As the saying goes, you can take the boy out the country but you can't take the country out of the boy. Even though the Apostles attended these services didn't mean the Apostles were under subjection to the Old Covenant. This is a common mis-conception. The Jewish converts (as well as their gentile brothers) gathered daily but especially on Sundays and when you see the Apostles worshipping on the Sabbath it was because that was when the congregation met. It doesn't mean they approved or disapproved.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you left one or two out, we also all agree the disciples met for communion on the first day of the week.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Yes - - we find one occassion in the NT where they are gathered for a farewell preaching service - and they "break bread" (a term that could easily refer to the Communion supper) -- calling that day "week day one" instead of "The Lord's Day" - and omitting anything like "as was our custom we met on week-day one - the day we call the Lord's Day, to break bread" -- This was the PERFECT place in the NT to say "week-day one IS the day we call the Lord's Day friends" - so that we could have at least ONE text that actually says it IN scripture thus helping us make an actual "sola scriptura" argument that "The Lord's Day is week-day one". The fact that there no "custom of meeting on week-day one" mentioned here AND the fact that they choose not to call this meeting a "Lord's Day meeting" -- speaks volumes to some of the Bible students reading that text.

Also, it was on Sunday after the resurrection when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles which is also known as the Day of Pentacost. Act 2:1-4.

Pentecost -- (means 50) This was 50 days after Passover. This could have been a Saturday meeting since Passover was on Saturday that year - so I am not "certain" it was Sunday.

But we do know that in Acts 1 they remained in the upper room meeting for 10 days -- and SURELY there had to be at least one Sunday there.

This is also an interesting verse that seems to imply something. Paul had the collection taken up on the first day of the week, 1Cor 16:1-2

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

We can all agree that "Lay by him (himself) in store" is never used anwheree in the Bible to mean "take up a collection in a public meeting" so EVEN IF some propose that this referenct is the one case where it does have that "public meeting" interpretation -- then at least all can agree this would be the FIRST time in all of scripture that the phrase has ever been used to mean "take up a collection in a public meeting".

Albert Barnes seems to agree

Albert Barnes
Lay by him in store. par eautw tiqetw qhsaurizwn. Let him lay up at home, treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, probably, the same as at home. Let him set it apart; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home, when he can calmly look at the evidence of his prosperity. Let him do it, not under the influence of pathetic appeals, or for the sake of display when he is with others; but let him do it as a matter of principle, and when he is by himself.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=016

Hence - I did not bring up the areas where I thought there would be many differeing POV even among Sunday keepers in my list of "we all agree that...".

I am trying to keep the "all agree" list to something that "at least" all Sunday keeping authorities would agree to.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So-- are those who do not keep the sabbath holy by doing no work without "the truth?

I have not argued anything of the sort.

and are you calling us all "liars?" and are you saying the large majority of 'Christians,' past and present, have no life, and belief in Jesus Christ is of no value without sabbath observance?

No - I am arguing that we SHOULD walk as Jesus walked - and the statement was made by TCGreek that Jesus kept the 4th commandment. I agreed with him.

I am pointing to the "consistency" in walking as Jesus walked in regard to the 4th commandment.

I am not arguing that you are not saved if you do not keep Christ's memorial of HIS work in Creation. Rather I argue that it is "more consistent" to keep the Ten Commandments as though they are the "Commandments of God" and contained in the Word of God -- "The Law of God".

As Paul said to the Church at Corinth "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

You have said that correctly and you have also provided an excellent "test" for your assumption to see "IF" in fact Paul was doing that very thing for IF that were the case THEN Paul "should have been saying -- let's meet tomorrow and continue this exciting Gospel discussion about the Christ who died for our sins and rose again. So I earnestly and enthusiastically envite ALL you GENTILES who have been accepting this message today AND even those of you who are Jews and yet are also accepting this message today to JOIN US TOMORROW in Worship so that you can hear MORE of what we discussed today".

So it is "instructive" that instead of that -- the gentiles must wait "until the next Sabbath" to hear more of the gospel that they are sooooo eager to hear -- that "practically the entire city shows up". Acts 13.

As you have stated -- if Paul were using your model it would have been in the form "Glad to see so many of you gentiles are accepting this message - please Join us tomorrow for our day of worhsip in honor of the Christ I have been preaching here today and his Resurrection event on week-day-one".

This is in fact - one place where we find something like agreement on this very topic.

Thanks for pointing that out.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, Sabbath provided the Gentiles with place to gather. They were already going there to begin.

I'm sure many of them had to work. The sabbath-gathering was ideal to share the Messiah's message.

 

[TCGreek]

If we keep this "sola scriptura" then we all agree on the following -- that the following statements are not found in scripture.

A.We all agree we are not going to ever find (IN SCRIPTURE) that

1, "week-day-one" is ever called "the Lord's day"
2. "week day one " is never called "Day of the Lord"
3. nor any text saying "Christ is Lord of Week Day one"
4. NOR that "God sanctified week-day one"
5. Nor that "God made week-day one holy"
6. Nor that Christ said "meet on week-day one in rememberance of My resurrection"
7. Nor that any NT writer ever said "we meet on week-day one in rememberance of our Lord's resurrection".

B. We ALSO all agree on the obvious fact that the following texts ARE found in the Bible.

1. Isaiah 58 -- the "Sabbath is the Holy Day OF the LORD".
2. Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath".
3. Isaiah 66 regarding the New earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
4. In Gen 2:3 God said that "He rested on 7th day THEREFORE HE blessed IT and made IT Holy" - Sanctified it on the 7th day of Creation week itself.

C. We also will probably agree that even though the above list of facts are obvious to all - you will never hear this list of facts from the pulpit.

Where we DIFFER is on "WHY" these clear yet "inconvenient" Bible facts are never mentioned in modern pulpits.

But if we go back to "D.L.MOODY" we WILL see some pretty strong statements on the "Sabbath commandment" -- as we all agree.

So it is interesting - the inconvenient facts that we can all agree to - while also finding room to differ.

in Christ,

Bob

In this whole discussion, we need to differentiate between Judaism and Christianity.

Jews still met on the sabbath but Christians on Sunday, the day Christ was raised.

Having said what I said about the Judaism, then you can plug in all those Scriptures into that schema of Judaism.

 

[LeBuick]

-- This was the PERFECT place in the NT to say "week-day one IS the day we call the Lord's Day friends" - so that we could have at least ONE text that actually says it IN scripture thus helping us make an actual "sola scriptura" argument that "The Lord's Day is week-day one".

I disagree, had they declared this to to be anything but the first day of the week, Christian's would worship and give more importance to the Day and not the reason for the day. I think you know what I mean since you seem to do just that with the Sabbath.

The fact that there no "custom of meeting on week-day one" mentioned here AND the fact that they choose not to call this meeting a "Lord's Day meeting" -- speaks volumes to some of the Bible students reading that text.

Again, I disagree, the fact that it wasn't called a Lord's Day Meeting only means that, they didn't call it a Lord's Day Meeting. You are reading more in the absence of text than is necessary. I think when you say Bible Students you must mean Sabbath Day Bible Students. I've never seen Alter Call mentioned in the Bible yet we have several every Sunday.

Pentecost -- (means 50) This was 50 days after Passover. This could have been a Saturday meeting since Passover was on Saturday that year - so I am not "certain" it was Sunday.

Do the math, 7X7 = 49 so the 50th day would be the first of the following week. Sunday.

But we do know that in Acts 1 they remained in the upper room meeting for 10 days -- and SURELY there had to be at least one Sunday there.

See above, it was Sunday when the spirit came, Peter preached and 3000 souls came to Christ. The first Christian worship service was on Sunday.

We can all agree that "Lay by him (himself) in store" is never used anwheree in the Bible to mean "take up a collection in a public meeting" so EVEN IF some propose that this referenct is the one case where it does have that "public meeting" interpretation -- then at least all can agree this would be the FIRST time in all of scripture that the phrase has ever been used to mean "take up a collection in a public meeting".

Not all of us, I certianly do not agree. Read the first verse, "Now concerning the collection for the saints..." Did the subject change? What else would they be talking about since Paul began the discussion with "as for the collection of the Saints"? It also lends similarity to Mal 3:10.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Hence - I did not bring up the areas where I thought there would be many differeing POV even among Sunday keepers in my list of "we all agree that...".

I am trying to keep the "all agree" list to something that "at least" all Sunday keeping authorities would agree to.

I think this was my point, we don't all agree with your all agree list. Your words may be factual but the implications and conclusions are not. Example, Gen 2:3 says the Sabbath was made so man would have a day of rest. Man put the value of this day even above the needs of their fellow man. God made the Sabbath for man and not man for the Sabbath yet Man made himself slave to a day. Don't you see the samething happening over again if Jesus or the Apostles had declared Sunday the Lord's day?

Also keep in mind the Church or "Christianity" didn't exist as we know it today while Jesus walked the earth. Jesus was a Jew and as being so he observed all the customs of the Jew's. As I said earlier, many of the first converts were previously Jew's and worshipped on the Sabbath more out of habbit than out of observance of the law. They were no longer under subjection to the law.

If you want to put yourself under the law then go for it. But don't say were wrong for worshipping on Sunday just because the Bible didn't make it an exact command.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[BobRyan]

Two statements from TCGreek -

Originally Posted by TCGreek
If I were to make it a custom to go in on the Sabbath to some place of gathering today, it would be to get the observers to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on the first day of the week, which is the Lord's Day.

Bob, Sabbath provided the Gentiles with place to gather. They were already going there to begin.

I'm sure many of them had to work. The sabbath-gathering was ideal to share the Messiah's message.

There are a number of ways to spin this --

My point is that when you stated (in the case of your first statement above) that someone holding your POV really only has one primary purpose in attending and speaking at a Sabbath worship service - and that it to get as many as desire to accept the message of the Gospel and hear more about -- to join you in worship "tomorrow" (being week-day-one in that case).

I am simply agreeing with you and then showing that this is precisely what does NOT happen in Acts 13 EVEN though "almost the entire city" of gentiles is anxious to hear more and turns out "the next Sabbath".

in Christ,

Bob