Ordained to Eternal Life

Truth

The elect that God said that He would keep is the meek and the humble who trust in the Lord.

It's trust belief and then faith.

The sheep will blindly follow Jesus and be saved too bad for those who are not following Jesus and going there own way for they are not His sheep.

You trust in Jesus first, you don't even know what to believe until you turn to Christ Rippon.

 

sheep

Those of you who are are Christ sheep and are ignorantly going astray Jesus knows how to bring you back, by using His own sheep who are following the path.

You who are purposly going astray and are putting our Lord our God to a test, you are not going to like the end of the road.

This is why this scripture is so importanant.

Hebrews 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

 

Before I begin, I must confess, I have a difficult time following psalms109:31's posts. I find them highly cryptic and lacking clarity. Perhaps it is just me (and it probably is just me). Anyway, I wanted to address a few points.

So then, are you saying that we believe then, as a result of our belief, God elects us? If this is so, it is an unfortunate misunderstanding of scripture. Every instance of man's relationship to God has God acting first and, as a result, man responding. God is always the Primary Actor; man is always the secondary responder. The Bible does not depict man as being the primary actor and God being the responder. On some occasions we see this order, but that is only in pagan worship (like Elijah and the prophets of Baal).

I don't think the Bible ever suggests that we follow "Blindly." We are told to have a ready defense for the hope in us, we are told to love God with heart, soul, mind, etc. So, certainly we are not blind followers. Had God intended us to be blind followers, He would not have given us the Bible.

This statement, if I understand it correctly, presents quite a conundrum for your theology. On the one hand, you argue that we, the sheep, are to follow blindly and then, on the other hand, you argue you have to know what to believe, at least at some point. This is not an apparent contradiction; it is an actual contradiction.

Furthermore, how are we to trust in what (or who) we don't know. Your argument makes little or no sense.

Well, this one has me scratching my head. I'm not sure what you're getting at, maybe it is the many typos, which we all struggle with, that impedes my understanding. Please explain your argument further.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Yes they were appointed to eternal life but, they weren't appointed to believe. If they had been then man wouldn't have had a choice.
MB

 

There is quite a conundrum in your reply. The structure of the Greek (as explained in a previous post of mine) shows that the ones appointed were appointed by someone else, not themselves. But, as you agree, they were appointed to eternal life.

Your above argument suggests one can get eternal life without believing, which I don't agree with and I doubt you'd agree with.

The problem with your argument is that when one is appointed to eternal life that appointment ipso facto guarantees the belief as well.

Now, certainly man must respond, but he must be enabled to respond. But, for certain, God does not drag us kicking and screaming into salvation. He gives us Eyes to see and Hearts to see and that act (we call it regeneration) ipso facto guarantees our response to God's call.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

TCGreek said:

You also said in a later post that the decision of whether the word is perfect passive or perfect middle is determined by the context. So, let's look at the context.

In 13:38, Paul speaks to the Jews, calling them brothers (though they were Jewish brothers, not Christian brothers) and says: Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.... From this verse we can see that the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to people who ultimately reject Christ. How can forgiveness of sins be proclaimed to the non-elect if the atonement is limited to the elect?

In 13:46, Paul again speaks to the Jews and tells them why they will not have eternal life: It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we are turning to the Gentiles. Notice why they do not gain eternal life. They do not gain it because of an action they perform on themselves. They reject it and do not consider themselves worthy of it.

Since we have a result in verse 46 that comes about because of an action people perform upon themselves, how shall we take the word in question in verse 48 which CAN be translated as an action upon oneself. I think we should take it in the middle voice rather than the passive. I think we take it as "as many as availed themself of eternal life" rather than "as many as were ordained to eternal life". I hold this view because the context supports it. The cause of the gain or loss of eternal life is clearly based upon the person's action in verse 46. The parallel idea in verse 48 should be translated the same way.

 

Truth

We do not know what to believe or anything until we turn to Jesus. So it all begins with trust, we know that God said that those who trust in the Lord will not be disappointed.

We trust in Jesus and He opens our eyes and reveal the truth and we can go on with confidence in what Jesus reveals to us not men.

Yes you start off blindly and trust in Jesus and He will do the work in us.

You don't need to believe anything when you come to Jesus but come as a child.

God has hidden the truth from the wise and learn and reveals it to children.

 

First off, I looked at your blog, congrats! on the new munchkin. Now on to my post!

You said:

Simple. No one, save God, knows who the elect are. This is why we go to every area of the world to share the gospel--to harvest that which He has planted.

Secondly, as to your taking tassw (its inflected form) as middle in verse 48, I don't think you can do that. Certainly context is an issue but, here especially, I think the context argues against you.

Luke is making a definite distinction between the Jews (the "chosen" people) and the Gentiles (the "un-chosen" people). Luke goes out of his way to show the rejection of the "chosen" and the acceptance of the "unchosen." I think he's doing this so that his reader will understand that this is God's doing this--choosing people from the unchosen.

When you take into consideration the Jew's common understanding that they were "Chosen by God" as His special people, I don't think your argument works.

Secondly, the most natural meaning of tassw is passive. Really, who would "appoint one's self?" If you appoint, that is active and requires a direct object. If you are appointed, it is passive. It is highly unlikely that anyone appoints themselves (in the manner in which the root meaning of tassw speaks). So, the argument for a middle-voice understanding is quite weak based on natural the most natural meaning of the word itself. If you put that together with the contextual consideration I pointed out above, along with the entire context of scripture, it is difficult to take this to be other than a passive.

Many blessings to you and your growing family,

The Archangel

Edited for many super-annoying, little typos, I need to proodfeed better.....see! There I go AGAIN!

 

...but if the atonement is not for the reprobate, The Gospel message is not for everyone, making evangelism a waste of time proclaiming it to everyone when the elect make up only the "few".

Also, since the Gospel message is not intended for the reprobate, how can they be held accountable for rejecting something that is not inteded for them?

 

I'm with you on this one.

Until I see otherwise in Scripture, the gospel goes out to all. Jesus preached to all and was met with opposition because some were of their father the devil (John 8:39-59)

Yes, they rejected the gospel call.

It does not follow that because the people rejected the gospel call that we should automatically think that the Greek form is middle and not passive, as most commentators believe.

Also, you're taking a very obscure meaning of tassw; that's not responsible scholarship, my brother. We should go with the predominate use of tassw as seen in NT.

Furthermore, it is quite clear from Scripture that God is the one who initiates salvation, so we should take the larger context of Scripture into consideration.

Analogia scriptura applies here, a la Reformers.

 

OK, I need to add more to the argument.

The word in the verse, in its inflected form, is tetagmenoi. I forgot to mention that this is a Perfect Passive Participle. I think that it should be passive is strengthened (mightily) by its being Perfect.

The Perfect shows a completed action in the past with continuing benefits to the present. So, if we took this as middle, these persons would have availed themselves to eternal life in the past only to fully realize it when they heard Paul preach. This is highly unlikely and it breaks the natural order of what Luke is saying.

That's all I wanted to add.

The Archangel

 

I would argue the gospel message is for everyone, knowing full-well that only the elect will (in some cases will eventually) respond. It is never a waste of time to obey God's commands. God's command is not to "save" people but to make disciples, by going, teaching, and baptizing. When we follow His command, we are being obedient and He will, through our efforts to make disciples, bring people to salvation.

Would you argue that it was a waste of time for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? He made a long journey and he certainly would have killed him, yet God knew He wouldn't let Abraham do it. Was that a waste? No. Abraham was able to demonstrate his faith in obedience to God's command--and that is a very valuable thing.

People are held accountable for all kinds of things they are ignorant of. Again, I would argue the message is intended for the reprobate, only that the message, since they reject it, is intended to add to their condemnation.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

But why would God, who designs things in microscopic detail...come up with a plan that to finite beings seem to be a waste of time? That's the best He could come up with in sharing the Gospel "tell everyone...but I only intend to save a few"?

I'm not following how this is relevant to the topic. I didn't think it was a waste of time, because Abraham already had God's promise that through him a great nation would be born. Likewise, the promise that all who believe will be saved is true...even for those who are eventually reprobate.

This is not about ignorance, but the fact the Gospel message is NOT for the reprobate if Christ's atonement is ONLY for the elect. However, they are being held accountable for rejecting something NOT intended for them

If one is condemned...why does God need to add to that condemnation? That's beating a dead horse.

 

Web, that's a great question. And I'm not sure of a good answer. We know that God is quite extravagant even when it seems weird to us. Think of the beauty on the high mountain tops or the ocean depths that no one will ever see or think of the beauty on planets in far distant galaxies that no one will see. It just displays God's glory, even if we don't see it. In the same way, it displays our faithfulness to God when we share the gospel with everyone and leave the saving up to Him. It isn't about saving; it is about being faithful to God's command to make disciples.

The above analogy was not related to the promises Abraham already had. Rather, I was referring to God's command and how Abraham's following the command demonstrated his (Abraham's) faith.

The only thing I can answer is this is how God chooses to do things. All throughout scripture He tends to operate in this manner. At times, He calls all heaven and earth to witness against His people when He is the only witness necessary. Why would he institute the entire Old Testament law when He knew most of the Israelites would wind up rejecting Him and His law? It was so the law would serve to further condemn them.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Certainly they were appointed but in the Greek text isn't it so that the believing comes first. If you do not rearrange the sentence construction I believe the last part would read; "as many as believed were appointed to eternal life"

You'd be right that I do not believe we can be saved apart from believing in Jesus Christ but, there is no such guarantee of belief. Man's belief is necessary for man to be a willing member of the body of Christ. No one is forced to believe never the less man must believe in order for man to be able to submit to the righteousness of God.

The Jews try to live according to the righteousness of the Law but while they have a zeal for God they ignore the submission it takes to have the righteousness of God.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Our belief and faith is only the hope of Salvation. It takes the faith of Jesus Christ to save.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This is how man is saved by Christ and not by works. Salvation isn't about what we accomplish in this life but what Christ accomplished on the cross.

I don't see any where in scripture where man was ever disabled, and I've read it several times from front to back. Certainly man doesn't come to God on his own. It isn't because he can't. Man dies and goes to hell because of a lack of knowledge. Most men will not come to the light because there deeds are evil but there is nothing to prohibit the preacher from shining it on him anyway. Which is why we are commanded to preach the gospel to every living creature even in the dark.

Most men who are saved aren't saved until they give up their rebellion. When a man hears the gospel his only choice is to rebel because if he doesn't he will believe there is no middle ground between listening and rebelling. We will listen or choose to shut it out. Like king Agrippa if he had only listened a little longer he would have been convinced. You can't be almost persuaded and not understand the preacher. Agrippa heard Paul he had no disability because he chose to resist and rebel.

Many reformers have pointed to scripture where Christ asked someone why he could hear him but it wasn't because he couldn't. Christ would have been wasting His breath. It was because he wouldn't hear Him.

Spiritual death is the same it's always been, a separation from God. Everyone will live for ever what matters is with whom. We will either live in hell or in the presence of Jesus Christ.

We are washed in the water of the word and sanctified by it. We are by the Faith of Jesus Christ Justified and we are glorified by the Father on Judgement day.
It takes God to convince us it takes God to convict us and it takes God to save us. It's all of God.
MB

 

Election

The truth of the matter is the true elect of God is Israel, but they were cut out for unbelief, not because they were not chosen but for unbelief. We Gentiles where included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

We are warned not to be arogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare us either.

We are to continue in God kindness or we will be cut out.

Election was never a guarentee for salvation, but belief in Jesus and trust in Him is a guarentee for our salvation.

We are to make sure of our election, and the only way of that is trusting in Jesus because in that we will not be disapointed.

Many people who think they are the elect of God will stand before Jesus and He will say I never knew you go away you evil doer.

I do truely believe that men have misunderstood Paul's teaching to thier very own distruction.

I'm just a messenger, I do not think everyone will understand me, but those who want to.

 

While word order is crucial in understanding the Greek syntax, we need to keep one fundamental principle in mind: the inflection of words.

With that in mind, this is how it looks: "As many as" is modified by "were appointed," which is a participle and therefore adjectival in nature.

So while your rearranging of the verse is commendable, it is more out of convenience than what the actual Greek text requires.

I hope this is helpful.

*** edited for spelling.

 

I guess it still matters "what makes sense." I know for you it makes perfect sense that God "appointed" them so they believed. And to us it makes equally perfect sense that they believed so God appointed them to eternal life. Obviously both sides are EISOGETING the scripture because the scripture is neither doctrinal in its teaching nor definitive in its doctrine.

It was merely Luke "reporting" what he saw.

skypair

 

Luke "reporting" what he saw is precisely biblical theology at work: What it looks like, and what are its results.

 

This is certainly not so. If the charge of eisogeting is to be leveled, it is not to be leveled at us who take the meaning plainly. This text, despite the best efforts of many, says what it says. Now, people may find that a tough pill to swallow, but then again, those persons do not have a problem with our interpretation, they have a problem with what Luke wrote.

Also, because Luke included this little "blurb," it is important. The nature of writing (and the enormous expense in that day) alone tell us this.

Many blessings,

The Archangel