Order of Events in Revelation

[ituttut]

:love2: Ituttut,

Amen, MY FRIEND.

At last you agree that surviving tribulation saints will be glorified when
Christ appears to take vengeance on unbelievers. The prospect that makes our joy complete! Any other prospect than the resurrection and glorification of all the martyrs on the "last day" refuses to accept Christ's and Paul's teaching that "God will bring their souls with Jesus". John 6:38,39,44,54; I Thess.4:13-14.

I have never said otherwise concerning the "tribulation saints". But I Thessalonians 4:13-14 refers to the "rapture", and not to what I posted referencing II Thessalonians 1:7, which is His second coming to this earth.

Quote:
__________________________________________________ ____________
" I really hoped you would be able to find as much joy and peace as I find in verse 7 of II Thessalonians 1, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."
__________________________________________________ ____________

Paul then reiterates this wonderful hope in verse 8-10 by adding:

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on those that know not God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power WHEN He shall come to be glorified in His saints and be admired by ALL who believe ON THAT DAY"!

We are resting, and Paul tells those addressed to come rest with him. When is this? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." We are resting in heaven when this wrath comes, and His mighty angels are with Him.

ON WHAT DAY are all who believe glorified? ON THE DAY Christ comes to
take vengeance on all who obey not the Gospel as of that Day. If you continue to insist that Paul is talking about himself and the saints of his day, and not about all who believe as of the DAY of Vengeance, then
I take this as another example of why we cannot keep up the "dialogue".

I agree an impasse. I up there, and you down here during the tribulation. Good Luck.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Ituttut,

You continue to agree on the glorification of trib-saints on the Day of Vengeance, as Paul affirms without any uncertainty. Then you suggest
they are not "resting in heaven when this wrath comes and His mighty
angels ... so that all the saints are kept from the wrath of God".

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"We are resting, and Paul tells those addressed to come rest with him. When is this? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." We are resting in heaven when this wrath comes, and His mighty angels are with Him.
_____________________________________________________________

The question is not WHEN we are kept from wrath; but who are included.
I rest my case with Paul and Jesus that ALL the saints will be kept from God's wrath and you seem to have agreed in your final two posts. This,
of course, in your mind only, requires two stages to the resurrection, i.e., one before and one after the great tribulation. Shalom!

Thank You.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

You continue to agree on the glorification of trib-saints on the Day of Vengeance, as Paul affirms without any uncertainty. Then you suggest
they are not "resting in heaven when this wrath comes and His mighty
angels ... so that all the saints are kept from the wrath of God".

You continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree with you as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

Quote:
__________________________________________________ ___________
"We are resting, and Paul tells those addressed to come rest with him. When is this? "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." We are resting in heaven when this wrath comes, and His mighty angels are with Him.
__________________________________________________ ___________

The question is not WHEN we are kept from wrath; but who are included.

You take away from Paul the gospel He received from Christ Jesus. Paul is telling us we will be caught up before His wrath begins, and anti-chirst is not known until we are gone. His Word teaches anti-christ will have his day. How do account for this by using your "one" day of wrath?

I rest my case with Paul and Jesus that ALL the saints will be kept from God's wrath and you seem to have agreed in your final two posts. This,
of course, in your mind only, requires two stages to the resurrection, i.e., one before and one after the great tribulation. Shalom!

Those in the Body of Christ in this dispensation will be -- dead resurrected first -- we alive will be caught up, and those "saints to be" that go into tribulation will be resurrected. The "to be saints" are in prophecy. We are not pointed out in prophecy past, or future. We in the Body were unknown before Damascus Road are unknown after the rapture, for we are only seen In Christ Jesus, not being seen as those before Abraham, Israel, or proselytes.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events "Within Prophecy"

Ituttut,

A whole week has passed since I last responded to your remarks and you now introduce a new idea about God's wrath that needs explanation:
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel Miller

You (Ituttut) continues to agree on the glorification of trib-saints on the Day of Vengeance, as Paul affirms without any uncertainty. Then you suggest they are not "resting in heaven when this wrath comes and His mighty angels ... so all the saints are kept from God's wrath".



You (Mel) continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."
_____________________________________________________________

My Response:
Against the "Day of Vengeance" to which Paul refers in 2 Thess.1:8-10, you (Ituttut) suddenly make reference to the "DAYS (plural) of Vengeance" (wrath) to which Jesus refers in Luke 21:22-23.

To make the discussion relevant, please answer the following:

1. To what parameters of God's *DAYS* of "wrath" does Jesus refer?
2. How does the "Vengeance of the (single) Day" on which the Saints are glorified to be related to those (plural) "DAYS of vengeance"?
3. Since you agree the Saints who are glorified on the DAY of Vengeance include Trib-Saints (and are therefore "IN PROPHECY"), on what basis do you claim that "we Pre-Trib Church Saints are NOT IN PROPHECY"?

Quote by Ituttut:
____________________________________________________________
The "to be saints" are in prophecy. We are not pointed out in prophecy past, or future.
____________________________________________________________

Please answer with reference to what I consider your unsubstantiated
claim that "we are at no time pointed out in prophecy - past or future"

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[ituttut]

Originally Ituttut,

A whole week has passed since I last responded to your remarks and you now introduce a new idea about God's wrath that needs explanation:

This is not my job, and it is not my only life. I have other responsibilities. I spread myself around helping those that need help - physically, mentally and spiritually. I find some on this board need help also. Please be patient for others request solace, understanding and material help.


It looks to be new to you, but not to me. This is what we have been talking about, and you refuse to accept the start of His Wrath.

__________________________________________________ ___________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel Miller

You (Ituttut) continues to agree on the glorification of trib-saints on the Day of Vengeance, as Paul affirms without any uncertainty. Then you suggest they are not "resting in heaven when this wrath comes and His mighty angels ... so all the saints are kept from God's wrath".



You (Mel) continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."
__________________________________________________ ___________

My Response:
Against the "Day of Vengeance" to which Paul refers in 2 Thess.1:8-10, you (Ituttut) suddenly make reference to the "DAYS (plural) of Vengeance" (wrath) to which Jesus refers in Luke 21:22-23.

To make the discussion relevant, please answer the following:

1. To what parameters of God's *DAYS* of "wrath" does Jesus refer?

This is not suddenly. You find this information in His Word, correctly understood. Some have been previously pointed out to you, but ignored or discarded as not made relevant by you.

2. How does the "Vengeance of the (single) Day" on which the Saints are glorified to be related to those (plural) "DAYS of vengeance"?

Plurality has been included in what I have posted, and you refuse it. It is inclusive. His Wrath is included in His Wrath. You contend only ONE DAY OF WRATH, so you contradict His Word, for His WRATH culminates in that ONE DAY OF WRATH.

3. Since you agree the Saints who are glorified on the DAY of Vengeance include Trib-Saints (and are therefore "IN PROPHECY"), on what basis do you claim that "we Pre-Trib Church Saints are NOT IN PROPHECY"?

Quote by Ituttut:
__________________________________________________ __________
The "to be saints" are in prophecy. We are not pointed out in prophecy past, or future.
__________________________________________________ __________

Please answer with reference to what I consider your unsubstantiated
claim that "we are at no time pointed out in prophecy - past or future"

We cannot been seen in future prophecy for we are seen as those in heaven -- Perhaps Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them…..". Can you find the rapture before Christ revealed this to Paul? This is not in prophecy, and Jesus while on earth did not tell you about this. This is in the "mystery" ** that was kept secret since the beginning. ** Romans 16:25, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

It is impossible to understand His Word when we don't listen to Christ Jesus from heaven. While on earth as man Jesus explicitly tells us He did not come for the Gentile. We only find that He did come for us after He is seated on the right hand of His Father in heaven. This was His purpose all along (to reconcile the whole world to Him, of those that will), but no one knew it for God said He hid such things from man from the beginning in a mystery. He did not hide from Israel what applies to them, the nation of Israel, His own people since they were formed.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

Thanks for such a quick reply, 4 hours, as you have a heavy schedule!
What you seem to think has illuded me all along is now time to discuss:

I wrote: "You (Ituttut) continue to agree on the glorification of trib-saints on the Day of Vengeance, as Paul affirms without any uncertainty. Then you suggest they are not "resting in heaven when this wrath comes and His mighty angels ... so all the saints are kept from God's wrath".

When does God's wrath come upon all mankind suddenly, as a snare?


Quote from Ituttut:
_____________________________________________________________
"It looks to be new to you Mel (that God's DAYS of wrath, since AD 70 upon the Jews, also include wrath upon all mankind during the great tribulation).

"This is what we have been talking about, and you refuse to accept the start of His Wrath.

"It is impossible to understand His Word when we don't listen to Christ Jesus from heaven. While on earth as man Jesus explicitly tells us He did not come for the Gentile. We only find that He did come for us after He is seated on the right hand of His Father in heaven.

[Then you admit His purpose was and is to reconcile the entire world]!!!!

This was His purpose all along (to reconcile the whole world to Him, of those that will), but no one knew it for God said He hid such things from man from the beginning in a mystery. He did not hide from Israel what applies to them, the nation of Israel, His own people since they were formed".

[And He did not hide from us that no Saint, ever, is appointed to wrath]!
_____________________________________________________________

Here, my friend, is where you confuse what Jesus taught about His former people and what He teaches in the Book of Revelation about God's wrath!

The plural "DAYS of Vengeance (wrath) apply ONLY to Israel and span the entire "times of the Gentiles" from AD 70 until Daniel's "END of Prophetic time". Dan.12:4; Luke 21:22-24. THEN, "in the DAYS that immediately follow the great tribulation", while the Jews are still suffering from God's wrath (as Jesus taught His Disciples concerning Israel and as He taught thru Paul would come to an end ONLY when the last Gentile is saved; in Rom.11:25-27) while the Church is being made up of Jews and Gentiles.

But there is no mention of God's wrath during the Great Tribulation ... NOT by Jesus in Luke 21:25-36 right up to the DAY He appears and the tribes of Israel beg for mercy NOR by Jesus in Revelation right up to the 7th
Trumpet of Revelation, the Last Trump, which is heaven's only declaration that God's WRATH has come on (all mankind; not just Israel).

AND with that wrath has come the "THE APPOINTED TIME" to RAISE AND GATHER the "dead in Christ" to meet Him in heaven (the Synaogue in the Sky) AND to reward the "Prophets and Saints and all who fear God" AND to "destroy the destroyers of earth". Rev.11:18.

Now, and this is the refutation of your unsubstantiated claim of when Jesus revealed all mankind will come at once under God's wrath. He did so in the same chapter that reveals God's wrath would continue only on the Jews (for 1936 years of DAYS so far) ... UNTIL the DAY (singular) Christ comes in Vengeance on all who disobey the Gospel that PAUL PREACHED (which applies even during the great tribulation)! ON THAT DAY God will deliver and glorify His martyred Trib-Saints (to which you agree) WHO WILL HAVE BEEN "RESTING WITH JESUS IN HEAVEN WHILE WAITING for the last one to be killed who must be killed" as of the LAST DAY! Rev.6:9-11. The Last Martyr dies on the Last Day and the Last Trump sounds that

God's wrath has come and the appointed time for Resurrection, Rapture
and Retribution. Let's give Jesus the authority by which He alone reveals
the DAY of Vengeance and Wrath and the DAY of Deliverance from great
tribulation is the very same DAY Christ comes in great glory and power!!

IMO, your entire approach to the future of God's elect is tarnished by your unsubstantiated view that Trib-Saints will suffer during the DAYS of "God's Wrath" which applies only to the Jews "until Gentiles times are finished". Luke 21:22-24.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

Ed Sutton,

I like your response because it recognizes the Book of Life has our names written therein from the foundation of the world ... whereas Ituttut rejects this wonderful truth, i.e.,

Ituttut's Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"The Lamb is from the beginning, as is the Book having no entries at the foundation of the world".
_____________________________________________________________

Once again we see that Ituttut departs from the evengelical belief that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This is why I cannot carry on a sensible discussion with him.

And Ed, I like your quote because it recognizes a HALF POINT in favor of
the Tribulation Martyrs being the Elect who refuse to worship the Beast ... the very ones who will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple for 1000 years ... while those who survive to the END will reign over the earth".
Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-5; Rev.3:12 (Pillars in the Temple).

My friend, would you consider it another HALF POINT if we should be among the "Elect gathered together above and out of the 4 winds from all the heavens' extremities on one of the days after the great tribulation"?
(This quote includes Matt.24:31 and Matt.24:29 after Jesus "gathers
the Elect from earth to heaven" in the same Day/Hour of Mark 13:24,27).

My "trump card" here is that the Elect are "gathered together above and out of the 4 winds" at the third sound of the great trumpet ... the LAST TRUMP of I Cor.15:52. Matt.24:31. I don't find a place for the Last Trump
to sound after the Angels finish "gathering the Elect unto Jesus at the
Synagogue" in the Sky ... while the tribes of earth "mourn". 2 Thes.2:1.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

Naw, I just got back to looking at this thread. The half a point I allowed you, Mel, was that the names were written in the book of life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world. Don't try to enter points on the scoreboard that I did not give. :laugh: :laugh: :sleep: Back to bed for me.

Ed

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Mel, before I answer, how about you answering a couple I asked you in my last post. Common courtesy requires you also must answer questions, as well as only asking, or misquoting others.

One - "You continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree with you as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads 'But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give 'suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.'" You will note wrath is in the Tribulation. Please answer if you can, and prove your position without discarding this verse.

Two - " You take away from Paul the gospel He received from Christ Jesus. Paul is telling us we will be caught up before His wrath begins, and anti-chirst is not known until we are gone. His Word teaches anti-christ will have his day. How do account for this by using your "one" day of wrath?" The above verse says there is wrath in the Tribulation. Please answer if you can, and prove your position without discarding this verse.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now to answering yours.

I cannot answer the below what you quote me as saying, for I said nothing about "God's Days of wrath, since AD 70…………" Will appreciate if you will not put your thoughts into my posts as if I said them.
Quote from Ituttut:
__________________________________________________ ___________
"It looks to be new to you Mel (that God's DAYS of wrath, since AD 70 upon the Jews, also include wrath upon all mankind during the great tribulation).
__________________________________________________ ___________

Here, my friend, is where you confuse what Jesus taught about His former people and what He teaches in the Book of Revelation about God's wrath!

The plural "DAYS of Vengeance (wrath) apply ONLY to Israel and span the entire "times of the Gentiles" from AD 70 until Daniel's "END of Prophetic time". Dan.12:4; Luke 21:22-24. THEN, "in the DAYS that immediately follow the great tribulation", while the Jews are still suffering from God's wrath (as Jesus taught His Disciples concerning Israel and as He taught thru Paul would come to an end ONLY when the last Gentile is saved; in Rom.11:25-27) while the Church is being made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Mel, what we see in Revelation must coincide with what we find in the OT concerning Israel and the Gentile. We know the "times of the Gentiles" began with the reign of Nebuchadnezzar. AD 70 is a far cry for the days of Daniel. Also the "times of the Gentiles" end with the second coming of Christ.

But there is no mention of God's wrath during the Great Tribulation ... NOT by Jesus in Luke 21:25-36 right up to the DAY He appears and the tribes of Israel beg for mercy NOR by Jesus in Revelation right up to the 7th
Trumpet of Revelation, the Last Trump, which is heaven's only declaration that God's WRATH has come on (all mankind; not just Israel).

Mel you just quoted above in Luke "DAYS of Vengeance (wrath)". You have just disproven your assertion. As said before Mel, Gods wrath is revealed even before the Tribulation period, so it exists, and His Wrath in that day (coupled with His "fierce anger" Isaiah 13:13) is the "culmination", or a concluding action.

IMO, your entire approach to the future of God's elect is tarnished by your unsubstantiated view that Trib-Saints will suffer during the DAYS of "God's Wrath" which applies only to the Jews "until Gentiles times are finished". Luke 21:22-24.

Scripture does not support your position Mel as to Wrath, or only to His people - Exodus 15:7. What are the trumpets about. Are there only Jew's on the earth at this Time?

With all due respect, I believe you need to rethink your position.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

Whoa! Back Up! Who did what? Why Do You Claim I Put Thoughts Into Your Posts??????

My friend, Let’s get it straight:

You wrote:
____________________________________________________________
I cannot answer the below what you quote me as saying, for I said nothing about "God's Days of wrath, since AD 70…………" Will appreciate if you will not put your thoughts into my posts as if I said them”.

In post #103, 8/16, you were the first to quote Luke 21:23:

Quote:
You (Mel) continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."


Here you introduced the Plural DAYS of wrath since AD 70 as if those DAYS apply to BELIEVERS ever since AD 70!

Jesus had just indicated those days (PLURAL) would be “DAYS of Vengeance” upon Israel. Jesus identified the “Days of Vengeance ... and wrath” applied only to this people”. You admitted this in your quote of Luke 21:23.

But you also claim this wrath involves Believers during the “DAYS (Plural) of great tribulation! It is clear that
Trib-Martyrs are in heaven waiting for the last one to be
killed who must be killed! How can the Believers on the
earth be suffering God's wrath?

You even put the words of “those days of wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” in bold letters. They refer only to days
of Vengeance for Israel. The Great Tribulation is NOT a
period of Vengeance or Wrath upon Trib-Saints.

Now, before I repeat my answer to your only question (which I already did if you would read what I wrote), please explain why you accuse me of putting thoughts into your posts when it is you that describes the “tribulation” as days of wrath during which you think that only Pre-Trib Church Saints will be taken to heaven.

Note: My point continues to be that Trib-Martyrs will be in heaven during the great tribulation while there is NO WRATH for Believers on the earth. The DAYS of Vengeance are for the Jews since AD 70; not EVER for Believers! The DAY (single) of Vengeance that Paul exempts us from will be the single 12-Hour-Day that Christ comes in glory!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,


Whoa! Back Up! Who did what? Why Do You Claim I Put Thoughts Into Your Posts??????

My friend, Let’s get it straight:

You wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
I cannot answer the below what you quote me as saying, for I said nothing about "God's Days of wrath, since AD 70…………" Will appreciate if you will not put your thoughts into my posts as if I said them”.

In post #103, 8/16, you were the first to quote Luke 21:23:

But Mel that is your interpretation. I never mentioned AD 70, and you are trying to put your thoughts into mine. Yours is a mistranslation of His Word. You are saying that is the "times of the Gentiles" beginning, and I advised correctly the "times of the Gentiles began in the time of Nebuchadnezzar in about 606B.C. with Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem.

Quote:
You (Mel) continue to say we are not in heaven during the tribulation. And yes I agree as the trib-saints are glorified. But more is involved than the "one" day you contend is His only wrath. Luke 21:23 reads "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."


Here you introduced the Plural DAYS of wrath since AD 70 as if those DAYS apply to BELIEVERS ever since AD 70!

Again your thought and not mine. I never said any such thing. The time His wrath begins to show is in the beginning of the tribulation period. He allows His wrath to began as He unleashes Satan that comes in his wrath. Your position is not sustainable. We are not today living in the great tribulation period. If we are you have a duty to advise us all who the anti-christ is. Do that with provable evidence and we will all believe you. Tell us who has the mark of the beast. Can you and I still buy and sell? Where are the two witnesses, and who and where are the 144, 000? The known facts to occur in the tribulation must be presented for anyone to believe what you contend when you talk of A. D. 70.

Jesus had just indicated those days (PLURAL) would be “DAYS of Vengeance” upon Israel. Jesus identified the “Days of Vengeance ... and wrath” applied only to this people”. You admitted this in your quote of Luke 21:23.

There are still Gentiles in the world at that time. The OT speaks to His people, and there were Gentiles in the land of Israel, and there are today, and will be in the future. There has always been according to scripture heathen in Israel. Yes the verse speaks to His people, just as before Damascus Road, but the Gentile is caught up in it all with the whole earth involved. Anyone whether Jew or Gentile in that day had better get out of there for this is the center of the storm.

But you also claim this wrath involves Believers during the “DAYS (Plural) of great tribulation! It is clear that
Trib-Martyrs are in heaven waiting for the last one to be
killed who must be killed! How can the Believers on the
earth be suffering God's wrath?

There were believers before Damascus Road, and after Damascus Road, and after the Rapture. Those after Damascus Road are "raptured" for we are the only ones since the beginning that are justified through faith. There will not be one Gentile left on this earth in the Body of Christ Church. Start the "tribulation" and the New believers will go into the tribulation period, and will be justified by faith (with the exception of the 144,000 Jews and two witnesses). This has to be true as any other belief will contradict His Word.

You even put the words of “those days of wrath upon THIS PEOPLE” in bold letters. They refer only to days
of Vengeance for Israel. The Great Tribulation is NOT a
period of Vengeance or Wrath upon Trib-Saints.

Mel you are saying the wrath upon THIS PEOPLE happened in 70 A.D. and try to place what I say into your context misunderstood. This refers to the Great Tribulation period in the Tribulation that starts almost 7 years from the end when He comes in His Wrath and fierce anger in that day.

Now, before I repeat my answer to your only question (which I already did if you would read what I wrote), please explain why you accuse me of putting thoughts into your posts when it is you that describes the “tribulation” as days of wrath during which you think that only Pre-Trib Church Saints will be taken to heaven.

As previously said In His wrath He allows the wrath of Satan to be unleased and the end will culminate in those days of His Wrath, with His wrath and fierce anger.

Note: My point continues to be that Trib-Martyrs will be in heaven during the great tribulation while there is NO WRATH for Believers on the earth. The DAYS of Vengeance are for the Jews since AD 70; not EVER for Believers! The DAY (single) of Vengeance that Paul exempts us from will be the single 12-Hour-Day that Christ comes in glory!

Are you saying what I think you are saying. Are you an anti-Semitic? The tribulation period (which runs all the way to the end) will contain only those Jews that live in that day, and the Gentiles also. There are those of Jewish descent that are in the Body of Christ, and they will be raptured. Perhaps I have missed something but you really are saying you are a Pre-Tribber (mid point), after all. Still don't agree with the one-half day theory.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

You harp on my putting thots into your view; the same applies to you!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
I (ituttut) never mentioned AD 70, and you are trying to put your thoughts into mine. Yours is a mistranslation of His Word. You are saying that is the "times of the Gentiles" beginning, and I advised correctly the "times of the Gentiles began in the time of Nebuchadnezzar in about 606B.C. with Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem.
________________________________________________

You did not say Luke 21:20-22 was "fulfilled in AD 70" and I did not say Gentile Times "began at 606 BC". But you say I "mistranslate God's word". I suggest you study the two words "translate and interpret" and realize my view is NOT
a "MIStranslation" but an "interpretation"!!

You can't put the idea of AD 70 into the "interpretation" since that is the context of the destruction of Jerusalem that Jesus predicted in Luke 21:20-21. The "DAYS" of wrath
and Vengeance for the Jews began with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 ... not in BC 606 as you claim. You stand alone by denying the DAYS of wrath began in AD 70!!

The interpretation that separates you and me refers to WHOM Jesus has in mind to suffer God's wrath which Jesus identified as the "DAYS of Vengeance" that would last from AD 70 until the times of "trampling the Jews under foot" by the Gentiles are FINISHED"!!

You are trying to prove these DAYS were meant by Jesus to refer to the Great Tribulation as a period of God's wrath upon ALL mankind instead of just wrath upon the Jews as His former "people". Those DAYS of Vengeance have no reference to the "DAY of Vengeance" which occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation is FINISHED!!

My Friend, the DAY of Vengeance is the DAY of Deliverance for Jews!!!!!
How then can it be a DAY of Wrath for them?

Your theology is off to start with! How can you claim to hold up God's purpose for Israel to be restored as His People during the Millennium by
claiming God's DAYS of wrath for them do not END before the DAY of wrath comes upon the Gentiles??
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut, You harp on my putting thots into your view; the same applies to you!

Quote:
__________________________________________________ _________
I (ituttut) never mentioned AD 70, and you are trying to put your thoughts into mine. Yours is a mistranslation of His Word. You are saying that is the "times of the Gentiles" beginning, and I advised correctly the "times of the Gentiles began in the time of Nebuchadnezzar in about 606B.C. with Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem.

________________________________________________

You did not say Luke 21:20-22 was "fulfilled in AD 70" and I did not say Gentile Times "began at 606 BC".

Thank you.

But you say I "mistranslate God's word". I suggest you study the two words "translate and interpret" and realize my view is NOT
a "MIStranslation" but an "interpretation"!!

Mel I said "that is your interpretation". Mel you force people to go back to their posts, as you insert not only your thoughts into ours, but also give "half truths". And yes the other half of what I said was you "mistranslate". What you say is a matter or conjecture. It is your "interpretation" of the scripture, for you "translated" the Words meaning. A given "Translation" (altered) does become your "interpretation", making your "interpretation" a "mistranslation" of meaning.

You can't put the idea of AD 70 into the "interpretation" since that is the context of the destruction of Jerusalem that Jesus predicted in Luke 21:20-21. The "DAYS" of wrath
and Vengeance for the Jews began with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 ... not in BC 606 as you claim. You stand alone by denying the DAYS of wrath began in AD 70!!

But Mel from the beginning you have contended the "wrath of God" is only contained in a 12 hour time frame? You are departing from your original stance. Mel:" For anyone to claim God's wrath begins "before" the 7th Trumpet completely ignores that "God's wrath is not announced from heaven as having come" until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Rev.11:15-18."

If you wish to stay true to your original belief, will you not need to believe Luke 21:20-21 refers to the "end time? Look at the following verse 22 "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." What had been written at that time? Scripture of the OT. What is written in such as Isaiah 35. His "vengeance" comes and then the millennium. What about Zechariah14:1-3 reading " Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

The interpretation that separates you and me refers to WHOM Jesus has in mind to suffer God's wrath which Jesus identified as the "DAYS of Vengeance" that would last from AD 70 until the times of "trampling the Jews under foot" by the Gentiles are FINISHED"!!

What you fail to see Mel is this started long before AD 70. Was it all "milk and honey" for the Jew up until AD70? Rome had Israel under its foot while Jesus was on earth. Their problems did not begin in AD70 as you contend. No Israel and no Temple in AD 70 yes, but Israel's judgment started long before 70AD. Scripture teaches Vengeance falls on the Gentile also

You are trying to prove these DAYS were meant by Jesus to refer to the Great Tribulation as a period of God's wrath upon ALL mankind instead of just wrath upon the Jews as His former "people". Those DAYS of Vengeance have no reference to the "DAY of Vengeance" which occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation is FINISHED!!

Luke 21:22 goes with 20, and 21, and says "fulfillment", not the beginning.

You probably believe Christianity began at Pentecost. It didn't. Pentecost was fulfillment of prophecy. Christianity had never been heard of until after Damascus Road.

My Friend, the DAY of Vengeance is the DAY of Deliverance for Jews!!!!!
How then can it be a DAY of Wrath for them?

Mel you change with the wind. I'm trying to word this nicely, which is hard to do. You never mentioned "vengeance" until I brought to your attention on page eight. You are now taking it as your own, forcing you into further conflict with His Word.

Your theology is off to start with! How can you claim to hold up God's purpose for Israel to be restored as His People during the Millennium by
claiming God's DAYS of wrath for them do not END before the DAY of wrath comes upon the Gentiles??

No sure what you are saying here, so I'll pass.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Ituttut,
Your closing sentence reveals that you do not understand the difference between the DAYS of the centuries of God’s wrath for the Jews and the final DAY of wrath which is for all UNBELIEVERS and the DAY of deliverance for Jews.
Quote:
I wrote:
Your theology is off to start with! How can you claim to hold up God's purpose for Israel to be restored as His People during the Millennium by
claiming God's DAYS of wrath for them do not END before the DAY of wrath comes upon the Gentiles??
You concluded your Post:
"Not sure what you are saying here, so I'll pass".
______________________________________________________________________________
Again, earlier in your post, you revealed the misunderstanding of the difference:
Quote:
I wrote:
You can't (meaning you refused to) put the idea of AD 70 into the "interpretation" since that is the context of the destruction of Jerusalem that Jesus predicted in Luke 21:20-21. The "DAYS" of wrath and
Vengeance for the Jews began with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 ... not in BC 606 as you claim. You stand alone denying the DAYS of wrath (of Luke 21:22-23) began in AD 70!!
But Mel from the beginning you have contended the "wrath of God" is only contained in a 12 hour time frame? You are departing from your original stance. You wrote:" For anyone to claim God's wrath begins "before" the 7th Trumpet completely ignores that "God's wrath is not announced from heaven as having come" until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Rev.11:15-18."

If you wish to stay true to your original belief, will you not need to believe Luke 21:20-21 refers to the "end time?
___________________________________________________________________________
Ituttut, you keep on failing to understand the difference as evidenced in words that follow:
“Their problems did not begin in AD 70 as you contend. No Israel and no Temple in AD 70 yes, but Israel's judgment started long before 70AD. [I never denied that God's wrath on the NATION began in BC 606; The wrath of AD 70 involved a renewed "desolation upon the people of Israel"].
Quote:
I wrote:
You are trying to prove these DAYS were meant by Jesus to refer to the Great Tribulation as a period of God's wrath upon ALL mankind instead of just wrath upon the Jews as His former "people". Those DAYS of Vengeance have no reference to the "DAY of Vengeance" which occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation is FINISHED!!
Ituttut, you keep showing your disposal to include the sudden wrath of the LAST DAY with the DAYS of wrath on Israel since AD 70. You show it further by confusing the wrath since BC 606 with wrath that Jesus identified as a FUTURE destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.

I am NOT departing from my original stance that God’s Wrath on the Gentiles is confined to the DAY and HOUR of Christ’s coming on one of the days “in the days AFTER the great tribulation; one of the 3½ days after the Two Prophets finish their task, in the days when God’s mystery was finished; in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that `God’s wrath has come’”.

Luke does NOT “deal with the Endtime’s 3½ years” except by incorporating it into the “times of the Gentiles” in 21:24. Luke jumps from the wrath of AD 70 to the DAY Christ is revealed in glory and great power. Luke 21 still answers the question about the SIGN of Christ’s coming; but does not mention the SIGN of the Endtime (Abomination of Desolation) as do Matthew and Mark. Only Luke directly refers to the DAYS of God’s wrath coming upon “this people until Gentile Times are totally finished”! That too is why Luke doesn’t refer to the “Elect being gathered above to Jesus by the angels after He gathers them from the earth".

I do not change with the wind as you claim: “Mel you change with the wind. You never mentioned `vengeance' until I brought to your attention on page eight. You are now taking it as your own, forcing you into further conflict with His Word”.

No my friend, I’m just showing how your reference to DAYS of Vengeance are concerned with Israel only and that the DAY of Wrath is concerned with the DAY of Deliverance for them and the DAY all unbelievers are destined for Hell after refusing to believe the Gospel for 2000 years.

Finally, this is not the place to discuss when the Body of Christ began. You seem to stand alone in stating: “You (Mel) probably believe Christianity began at Pentecost. It didn't. Pentecost was fulfillment of prophecy”.

No. The world was just a little late to recognize the reality of Christianity!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Clarification:

I wrote: "No. The world was just a little late to recognize the reality of Christianity"!

The "No" refers to ituttut's claim that Christianity began with Paul rather than at Pentecost"!

Mel

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,Your closing sentence reveals that you do not understand the difference between the DAYS of the centuries of God’s wrath for the Jews and the final DAY of wrath which is for all UNBELIEVERS and the DAY of deliverance for Jews.

I wrote:
Your theology is off to start with! How can you claim to hold up God's purpose for Israel to be restored as His People during the Millennium by
claiming God's DAYS of wrath for them do not END before the DAY of wrath comes upon the Gentiles??

Just to make sure you know what you are talking about, and what I will know what you are talking about, show scripture of "DAYS of the centuries of God’s wrath for the Jews"'; "final DAY of wrath which is for all UNBELIEVERS", and "the DAY of deliverance for Jews". Give just the scriptures please. Then prove by these scriptures what you said with conviction from the beginning, viz. the "wrath of God" is only contained in a 12 hour time frame.

Quote:

__________________________________________________ ____________________________
Again, earlier in your post, you revealed the misunderstanding of the difference:
Quote:
I wrote:
You can't (meaning you refused to) put the idea of AD 70 into the "interpretation" since that is the context of the destruction of Jerusalem that Jesus predicted in Luke 21:20-21. The "DAYS" of wrath and
Vengeance for the Jews began with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 ... not in BC 606 as you claim. You stand alone denying the DAYS of wrath (of Luke 21:22-23) began in AD 70!!

You cannot prove what you are saying. In verse 22 Jesus says "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." These words of Jesus were not written in scripture, and He said what was "written" would be fulfilled. Read Matthew 24:3 to see what Jesus was prophesying for clarification. He is referring to when these things will be at His coming and the end of the world.

_________________________________ _________________________
Ituttut, you keep on failing to understand the difference as evidenced in words that follow:
“Their problems did not begin in AD 70 as you contend. No Israel and no Temple in AD 70 yes, but Israel's judgment started long before 70AD. [I never denied that God's wrath on the NATION began in BC 606; The wrath of AD 70 involved a renewed "desolation upon the people of Israel"].

You cloud the issue. Again, you denied previously His wrath could not come before the 7th trumpet.

Quote:

I do not change with the wind as you claim: “Mel you change with the wind. You never mentioned `vengeance' until I brought to your attention on page eight. You are now taking it as your own, forcing you into further conflict with His Word”.

No my friend, I’m just showing how your reference to DAYS of Vengeance are concerned with Israel only and that the DAY of Wrath is concerned with the DAY of Deliverance for them and the DAY all unbelievers are destined for Hell after refusing to believe the Gospel for 2000 years.

Romans 12:19 says otherwise.

Finally, this is not the place to discuss when the Body of Christ began. You seem to stand alone in stating: “You (Mel) probably believe Christianity began at Pentecost. It didn't. Pentecost was fulfillment of prophecy”.

This was not of discussion, but understanding "beginnings". You said the "wrath of God" could not begin until the 7th trumpet. You failed to see the beginning of His wrath, and you ignore the beginning of Christianity of justification through faith.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Ituttut,

Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
1. Mel, you cloud the issue. Again, you denied previously His wrath could not come before the 7th trumpet.
2. This was not of discussion, but understanding "beginnings". You said the "wrath of God" could not begin until the 7th trumpet. You fail to see the beginning of His wrath, and you ignore the beginning of Christianity of justification through faith.
3. Mel, if you wish to stay true to your original belief, will you not need to believe Luke 21:20-21 refers to the "end time?
______________________________________________________________

Do you realize the double negative in #1 makes the statement ambiguous?
I affirm God's wrath on UNBELIEVING Gentiles is only at the 7th Trumpet!!!

In #2 you continue to reject the difference between wrath on the Last Day and "wrath upon this people, the Jews, which DOES NOT include the WRATH of the LAST DAY ... because ON THAT DAY all Israel will be saved. Not one who "mourns and begs to escape" will suffer physical death!!!

In #3, my belief at the first, and until now, separates the WRATH upon
the Jews since AD 70 (and since BC 606 for the sake of agreement with Luke regarding the "fulfillment of all that was written") AND the WRATH that is confined to the "DAY of Vengeance when Christ comes in flaming fire to destroy the destroyers of earth", to resurrect and rapture all the saints and to resuce every JEW remaining alive ON THAT DAY!!!

As to justification by faith, there never was another way of salvation!!!

For some reason you can't, or obstinately refuse, to accept explanation.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
1. Mel, you cloud the issue. Again, you denied previously His wrath could not come before the 7th trumpet.
2. This was not of discussion, but understanding "beginnings". You said the "wrath of God" could not begin until the 7th trumpet. You fail to see the beginning of His wrath, and you ignore the beginning of Christianity of justification through faith.
3. Mel, if you wish to stay true to your original belief, will you not need to believe Luke 21:20-21 refers to the "end time?
______________________________________________________________

Do you realize the double negative in #1 makes the statement ambiguous?
I affirm God's wrath on UNBELIEVING Gentiles is only at the 7th Trumpet!!!

Mel I posted this reply early A.M on Sept. 5, but for some reason it was not recorded. I'm trying again to post my reply.

I do NOT see a double negative in #1. Nobody can't say that you don't work hard at trying to put blame on others.

Is Exodus 15:7 in error?

In #2 you continue to reject the difference between wrath on the Last Day and "wrath upon this people, the Jews, which DOES NOT include the WRATH of the LAST DAY ... because ON THAT DAY all Israel will be saved. Not one who "mourns and begs to escape" will suffer physical death!!!

Scripture please

In #3, my belief at the first, and until now, separates the WRATH upon
the Jews since AD 70 (and since BC 606 for the sake of agreement with Luke regarding the "fulfillment of all that was written") AND the WRATH that is confined to the "DAY of Vengeance when Christ comes in flaming fire to destroy the destroyers of earth", to resurrect and rapture all the saints and to resuce every JEW remaining alive ON THAT DAY!!!

Isaiah 13 doesn't seem to agree with what I understand you to say.

Quote:

As to justification by faith, there never was another way of salvation!!!

I agree there was never another way………until we are told differently. Christ Jesus from heaven informs all who can see it. I believe Him as He sits on the right hand of His Father in heaven. All things are New.

For some reason you can't, or obstinately refuse, to accept explanation.

It is according to the source. I believe His word. I have been called worse than obstinate while standing in His Word.Christianfaith, ituttut

 

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

Quote:
In #2 you continue to reject the difference between wrath on the Last Day and "wrath upon this people, the Jews, which DOES NOT include the WRATH of the LAST DAY ... because ON THAT DAY all Israel will be saved. Not one who "mourns and begs to escape" will suffer physical death!!!
ituttut: Scripture please
Mel: I can't believe you question the Scripture that "all Israel will be saved" on the Day Christ comes to "rescue the remnant" spoken of in Joel 2-3 and Rom.11:25-27 and Luke 17:30-33 and Luke 21:28-36.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Joel 2:28-32, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

The millennium begins After what? It begins After what Jesus named the Great Tribulation. In Matthew 24:13-31 I see something you do not see, which is in bold. Verse 21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". What you are saying is there is a "greater tribulation" to come.

In Joel above verse 31 and 32, Before that final day in the Great Tribulation there will be darkness, and it shall come to pass "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord…."

I do not see this as His wrath, which is past, but the climactic stage as He readies to "come again and place His people where He promised. And also we cannot leave out prophecy as shown in Joel verse 28, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;…..". It is all flesh, and not just Israel.

I can see where you get your idea from, but it I believe it shows contradiction of His Word, as your presentation limits to only Israel.

Again I say we in the Body of Christ are not involved in "prophecy", so I can't see where we really need to worry about this, if we are in the Body of Christ, and if so we will be raptured. If not, we won't.

We are to be in the "Body of Christ church", not the "kingdom church". The "kingdom was at hand" that prophecy spoke to and it looked to be imminent as Jesus spoke. Had Israel accepted Messiah, the Great Tribulation would have come, and all Gentiles justified by faith would be proselytes to the Jewish "kingdom church". That did not happen. What did happen was never prophesied, and that was Damascus Road, which equals the coming of the Body of Christ for those justified through faith, neither foretold, just as the rapture was unknown.

 

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

Quote:
__________________________________________________________
In Joel above verse 31 and 32, Before that final day in the Great Tribulation there will be darkness, and it shall come to pass "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord…."

I do not see this as His wrath, which is past, but the climactic stage as He readies to "come again and place His people where He promised. And also we cannot leave out prophecy as shown in Joel verse 28, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;…..". It is all flesh, and not just Israel.

I can see where you get your idea from, but I believe it shows contradiction of His Word, as your presentation limits to only Israel.
____________________________________________________________

If this is NOT the Day of God's wrath, as stated in Rev.6:17, when is that day? You seem to say it is "past"!

The "signs" of that Day occur "before" the events of that Day begin. But
both the signs and the events occur on the same 12-Hour-Day!!

This is the Day of Destruction for unbelievers who continue to reject the Gospel. It is also the Day of Deliverance for Israel. Jesus refers to both as taking place ON THE DAY and AT THE HOUR He is revealed from heaven. Are you trying to tell me that Jesus does NOT "raise up every believer on the last day" and that the "mourning of millions and their begging to escape and to stand before the Son of Man" is a hopeless exercise and that none of them will be "kept alive" ???!!! Luke 21:36; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Luke 17:33; Joel 2:32; Rom.11:25-27.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint: