All we have to go on is His Word. The last words on salvation, and what will happen to us is in the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. We see this in the Epistles of Paul, which the Holy Spirit had Paul write to both Gentile and Jew. Should we not listen as Christ from heaven talks to us?Mel Miller said:
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Order of Events in Revelation
- Thread starter Mel Miller
- Start date
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
Ituttut,
There's nothing in your words that bear on the subject under discussion.
For I agree with what you say above. It's your interpretation that refuses
to acknowledge that ALL the Saints who "come with Christ" in the Rapture
includes the souls of those "beheaded for Christ" during great tribulation and those who are "alive and survive until the Presence of the Lord"!!!!!
That is why your view of two ways of salvation, Peter's Way and Paul's
Way, are "extra-Biblical" and certainly NOT Baptistic!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
ituttut said:
Ituttut,
There's nothing in your words that bear on the subject under discussion.
For I agree with what you say above. It's your interpretation that refuses
to acknowledge that ALL the Saints who "come with Christ" in the Rapture
includes the souls of those "beheaded for Christ" during great tribulation and those who are "alive and survive until the Presence of the Lord"!!!!!
That is why your view of two ways of salvation, Peter's Way and Paul's
Way, are "extra-Biblical" and certainly NOT Baptistic!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
MelMel Miller said:
We agree on much, but not here where interpretations are made. If we interpret the Bible, then that interpretation must fit our belief. If an interpretation contradicts to one, but not another, then of necessity one person must believe one gospel, and the other person another gospel. As you refuse to be comforted by Paul's "good news" that we will not have to go through the "great tribulation", you are contradicting Christ from heaven, for it is He that informed Paul of this wonderful news. Remove that interpretation of yours, and you then allow the interpretation to be that of the Holy Spirit for you today for this is by Grace alone salvation.
Peter says the Jew had better listen to Paul's gospel. Paul informs us Christ Jesus taught him his (Paul's) gospel, Galatians 1:11-12. From what you are saying this is "extra-Biblical", and not Baptistic. I belong to a Baptist church, but I do not rely on a denomination to "save" me. Christian's join denominations, and it is not the other way around of joining a Baptist church and you become a Christian. I joined the Baptist church because they say they believe the gospel of Paul, of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That my friend is how we today are saved, and not like the Catholic's that believe the gospel of Peter of you must "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins." ------------- Only one gospel allows going through the tribulation. If that Gospel of Peter's is in effect today then to not contradict Peter one must believe they will have to go through the tribulation. I see in your belief in Peter's gospel you have chosen to "go through the great tribulation".
Last edited by a moderator:
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
Ituttut,
I don't think we agree at all as to those who are chosen in Christ.
Your conclusion to the last post shows our total disagreement:
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
To not contradict Peter one must believe they will have to go through the tribulation. I see in your belief in Peter's gospel you have chosen to "go through the great tribulation".
______________________________________________________________
Paul was stronger than Peter in teaching we must go through great tribulation! Jesus "prayed NOT that we escape tribulation; but only that
we be kept from the evil". John 17:15.
Not once have you given a verse of scripture that states you and I will not go through the great tribulation. That is your exclusive assumption!
Paul taught that "we are not appointed to wrath" and you cannot prove
this promise applies only to pre-tribulation saints. You cannot even
prove that the great tribulation, in the original Greek text, involves more than a single 12-Hour-Day of God's wrath (orgay)!
I note I am your Senior by 8 years. How long have you been saved?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:
Ituttut,
I don't think we agree at all as to those who are chosen in Christ.
Your conclusion to the last post shows our total disagreement:
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
To not contradict Peter one must believe they will have to go through the tribulation. I see in your belief in Peter's gospel you have chosen to "go through the great tribulation".
______________________________________________________________
Paul was stronger than Peter in teaching we must go through great tribulation! Jesus "prayed NOT that we escape tribulation; but only that
we be kept from the evil". John 17:15.
Not once have you given a verse of scripture that states you and I will not go through the great tribulation. That is your exclusive assumption!
Paul taught that "we are not appointed to wrath" and you cannot prove
this promise applies only to pre-tribulation saints. You cannot even
prove that the great tribulation, in the original Greek text, involves more than a single 12-Hour-Day of God's wrath (orgay)!
I note I am your Senior by 8 years. How long have you been saved?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Mel Miller: //No where does Paul state the Last Trump sounds
BEFORE the tribulation.//
Nowhere does Paul state that the Last Trump DOES NOT sound
BEFORE the tribulation. As a matter of fact, in the Jewish
annual Feast of Trumpets, three trumpets are sounded in this
order:
1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the great shofar
Here is a true statement: No where does Paul state the words:
"the Last Trump sounds BEFORE the tribulation".
No where does Paul state the words "There is a Triune God";
but those of us who can count to three can tell you who
the three members of the Holy Trinity are.
No where does Paul state that velcro can hold my shoes
on my feet; but velcro does hold my shoes on my feet.
Mel Miller: //No where does Paul state that "ALL who are changed"
excludes those whom Jesus will "raise up on the last
day ... on the Day He comes to gather the elect from
earth to heaven ... on the Day He sends the angels to gather
the elect out of all extremities of the heavens".//
Again, your assumption that there is one and only one resurrection
on one and only one 12-hour day is WRONG and leads to
errors in your conclusions. But Paul does not state in
words "there is one and only one resurrection
on one and only one 12-hour day" so you can't prove your
assumption is true scripturaly. But I recommend you quit dissing
your fellow Christians who vary in opinion with you.
You might be wrong and will look foolish.
As always, I reserves the right for other discussers to
be wrong as often and as many times as they wish.
(I reserve all gloating rights
Mel Miller: //You have no scriptural evidence whatsoever that the elect
gathered from earth to heaven are the Jews saved during
the great tribulation AFTER WE ARE ALL CHANGED
AT THE LAST TRUMP.//
Actually I do. But many are blind to the hope that is
within myself and Brother Ituttut.
BTW, most of the Jews saved during the Tribulation Period
are saved during the Tribulation (wrath lite) Period
not the second have of the Tribulation Period,
the Great Tribulation (wrath heavy) Period.
Mel Miller: //You have no proof that the dispensation
of salvation of grace by faith does NOT apply to both Jews
and Gentiles DURING the great tribulation.//
Of course it applies. However, if no gentile person
takes advantage of God's grace in this time, the practical
application is that ONLY JEWS receive the salvation
of grace in the Tribulation Period or Great Tribulation period.
Mel Miller: //Your doctrine is extra-Biblical!!!//
Technically speaking perhaps. But before you follow this
converstaion too far find out the
mathametical (statistics is a mathametics) meaning
of these terms:
interpolate -
extrapolate -
Mel Miller: //No where does Paul state the Last Trump sounds
BEFORE the tribulation.
You insert your doctrine INTO scripture as
if what you say is God's word//
Paul does not say that in the words you use.
However, your claim of you having the moral highground
here IS WRONG. You use exactly the same development
procedure for your LAS DAYS opinions as does Bro. Ituttut.
Like you, Bro. Ituttut makes assumptions where there is no
data. But Bro. Ituttut backs off the assumptions when
it leads to obviously bad concludions.
Bro. Ituttut has the moral highground.
Now, care to sit down for awhile and discuss all
the errors and loose ends that your Major assumption
leads to? Or would you be happier if i'd just go away?
The wrong assumption: There is one and only one 12-hour
day in which God can do resurrections & judgements.
ANd it's corrolary: God can't do multiple resurrections
cause Paul didn't number them.
Mel Miller: //Tishri 15 (which is always within one or two days of the full moon
in September or October and is required for Seal 6
to be fulfilled; Rev.6:12; NASB), fixes the time
of year for the “Ingathering of the Harvest”
at the same time as the Armageddon slaughter when
Jesus promises to “come as a thief” and fulfill Zech.14:16
at the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:9 puts this Feast on the Day Christ becomes
"King of the entire earth" (at 7th Trumpet; Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:14).
Jesus promises to come as a thief on that day. Rev.16:15.//
The DAY: 'Tishri 15' and the concept “come as a thief”
don't mix. If Jesus comes as a thief, the day is unknown.
If the day is known ('Tishri 15') then Jesus doesn't come
as a thief. Sorry, can't have it both ways.
BEFORE the tribulation.//
Nowhere does Paul state that the Last Trump DOES NOT sound
BEFORE the tribulation. As a matter of fact, in the Jewish
annual Feast of Trumpets, three trumpets are sounded in this
order:
1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the great shofar
Here is a true statement: No where does Paul state the words:
"the Last Trump sounds BEFORE the tribulation".
No where does Paul state the words "There is a Triune God";
but those of us who can count to three can tell you who
the three members of the Holy Trinity are.
No where does Paul state that velcro can hold my shoes
on my feet; but velcro does hold my shoes on my feet.
Mel Miller: //No where does Paul state that "ALL who are changed"
excludes those whom Jesus will "raise up on the last
day ... on the Day He comes to gather the elect from
earth to heaven ... on the Day He sends the angels to gather
the elect out of all extremities of the heavens".//
Again, your assumption that there is one and only one resurrection
on one and only one 12-hour day is WRONG and leads to
errors in your conclusions. But Paul does not state in
words "there is one and only one resurrection
on one and only one 12-hour day" so you can't prove your
assumption is true scripturaly. But I recommend you quit dissing
your fellow Christians who vary in opinion with you.
You might be wrong and will look foolish.
As always, I reserves the right for other discussers to
be wrong as often and as many times as they wish.
(I reserve all gloating rights
Mel Miller: //You have no scriptural evidence whatsoever that the elect
gathered from earth to heaven are the Jews saved during
the great tribulation AFTER WE ARE ALL CHANGED
AT THE LAST TRUMP.//
Actually I do. But many are blind to the hope that is
within myself and Brother Ituttut.
BTW, most of the Jews saved during the Tribulation Period
are saved during the Tribulation (wrath lite) Period
not the second have of the Tribulation Period,
the Great Tribulation (wrath heavy) Period.
Mel Miller: //You have no proof that the dispensation
of salvation of grace by faith does NOT apply to both Jews
and Gentiles DURING the great tribulation.//
Of course it applies. However, if no gentile person
takes advantage of God's grace in this time, the practical
application is that ONLY JEWS receive the salvation
of grace in the Tribulation Period or Great Tribulation period.
Mel Miller: //Your doctrine is extra-Biblical!!!//
Technically speaking perhaps. But before you follow this
converstaion too far find out the
mathametical (statistics is a mathametics) meaning
of these terms:
interpolate -
extrapolate -
Mel Miller: //No where does Paul state the Last Trump sounds
BEFORE the tribulation.
You insert your doctrine INTO scripture as
if what you say is God's word//
Paul does not say that in the words you use.
However, your claim of you having the moral highground
here IS WRONG. You use exactly the same development
procedure for your LAS DAYS opinions as does Bro. Ituttut.
Like you, Bro. Ituttut makes assumptions where there is no
data. But Bro. Ituttut backs off the assumptions when
it leads to obviously bad concludions.
Bro. Ituttut has the moral highground.
Now, care to sit down for awhile and discuss all
the errors and loose ends that your Major assumption
leads to? Or would you be happier if i'd just go away?
The wrong assumption: There is one and only one 12-hour
day in which God can do resurrections & judgements.
ANd it's corrolary: God can't do multiple resurrections
cause Paul didn't number them.
Mel Miller: //Tishri 15 (which is always within one or two days of the full moon
in September or October and is required for Seal 6
to be fulfilled; Rev.6:12; NASB), fixes the time
of year for the “Ingathering of the Harvest”
at the same time as the Armageddon slaughter when
Jesus promises to “come as a thief” and fulfill Zech.14:16
at the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:9 puts this Feast on the Day Christ becomes
"King of the entire earth" (at 7th Trumpet; Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:14).
Jesus promises to come as a thief on that day. Rev.16:15.//
The DAY: 'Tishri 15' and the concept “come as a thief”
don't mix. If Jesus comes as a thief, the day is unknown.
If the day is known ('Tishri 15') then Jesus doesn't come
as a thief. Sorry, can't have it both ways.
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
Ed Edwards,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"Now, care to sit down for awhile and discuss all the errors and loose ends that your Major assumption leads to? Or would you be happier if i'd just go away"?
______________________________________________________________
You suspended discussion about the meaning of gathering the Elect above "AFTER" the great tribulation by claiming Jesus meant "BEFORE" the great tribulation. I just figured you "went away" for lack of "gloating rights"!!!
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"The DAY: 'Tishri 15' and the concept `come as a thief' don't mix. If Jesus comes as a thief, the day is unknown. If the day is known ('Tishri 15') then Jesus doesn't come as a thief. Sorry, can't have it both ways".
_____________________________________________________________
Jesus is my authority; not your rhetoric. He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days after the great tribulation"! He stated His coming "as a thief" will occur when armies are gathered to Armageddon.
Rev.16:15-16. Why not agree to His explanation of "coming as a thief"?
Tishri 15 is a specific day, of course. But on the Hebrew Calendar it is
ALWAYS one or two days BEFORE or AFTER a full moon OR on the day/night of the full moon. That, sir, is why no one knows the exact day in advance. In 2004, Tishri 15 was 2 days after the full moon! Rev.6:12.
Usually, Tishri 15 is one day before or one day after or on the day/night of the full moon. Christ is coming on one of the 3 1/2 days after the Beast kills the Two Prophets; an unknown day after they finish their task! Rev.11:3-7.
Not even Jesus knows the exact day because He has submitted to His Father as alone knowing the time for the last one to be killed "who must be killed" before God takes vengeance in wrath on the last day. Rev.6:11.
I believe in accepting "DAY" as meaning what Jesus meant by "DAY".
Your extended rhetoric and extrapolated inferences confuse the meaning of "DAY" to support an imagined pre-trib rapture and multiple days for the resurrection of ALL believers INSTEAD of accepting that Jesus will "raise up ALL believers on the LAST DAY" and will "come with ALL the saints at His Presence"!! John 6:38-40; I Thess.3:13.
Whatever happened to your understanding of the inspired word of God that allows you to claim Jesus meant "BEFORE" when He said He will gather the elect from earth to heaven "AFTER" the tribulation?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Ed Edwards,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"Now, care to sit down for awhile and discuss all the errors and loose ends that your Major assumption leads to? Or would you be happier if i'd just go away"?
______________________________________________________________
You suspended discussion about the meaning of gathering the Elect above "AFTER" the great tribulation by claiming Jesus meant "BEFORE" the great tribulation. I just figured you "went away" for lack of "gloating rights"!!!
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"The DAY: 'Tishri 15' and the concept `come as a thief' don't mix. If Jesus comes as a thief, the day is unknown. If the day is known ('Tishri 15') then Jesus doesn't come as a thief. Sorry, can't have it both ways".
_____________________________________________________________
Jesus is my authority; not your rhetoric. He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days after the great tribulation"! He stated His coming "as a thief" will occur when armies are gathered to Armageddon.
Rev.16:15-16. Why not agree to His explanation of "coming as a thief"?
Tishri 15 is a specific day, of course. But on the Hebrew Calendar it is
ALWAYS one or two days BEFORE or AFTER a full moon OR on the day/night of the full moon. That, sir, is why no one knows the exact day in advance. In 2004, Tishri 15 was 2 days after the full moon! Rev.6:12.
Usually, Tishri 15 is one day before or one day after or on the day/night of the full moon. Christ is coming on one of the 3 1/2 days after the Beast kills the Two Prophets; an unknown day after they finish their task! Rev.11:3-7.
Not even Jesus knows the exact day because He has submitted to His Father as alone knowing the time for the last one to be killed "who must be killed" before God takes vengeance in wrath on the last day. Rev.6:11.
I believe in accepting "DAY" as meaning what Jesus meant by "DAY".
Your extended rhetoric and extrapolated inferences confuse the meaning of "DAY" to support an imagined pre-trib rapture and multiple days for the resurrection of ALL believers INSTEAD of accepting that Jesus will "raise up ALL believers on the LAST DAY" and will "come with ALL the saints at His Presence"!! John 6:38-40; I Thess.3:13.
Whatever happened to your understanding of the inspired word of God that allows you to claim Jesus meant "BEFORE" when He said He will gather the elect from earth to heaven "AFTER" the tribulation?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Mel Miller: //Whatever happened to your understanding of the inspired
word of God that allows you to claim Jesus meant "BEFORE"
when He said He will gather the elect from earth to heaven
"AFTER" the tribulation?//
Here is how some of my pretribulation friends explain it;
The same way you do, only the 'elect' are limited
to Jewish Israeli Messanic elect saints (the gentile Christian
saved elect saints get taken to heaven in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection)
BTW, your sarcastic refutation of all my explinations is
noted So I'll ask a question. Which verse following the
Matthew 24:29 phrase: 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' is the first verse NOT modified by the phrase?
Specifically:
1. Does Matthew 24:31 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? My answer is "no" for there is a major Greek
"KAI' (english 'and') there. But others may say "yes'. BTW,
if one answers "yes" ones needs a Biblical reason (another verse
that isn't parallel /like Mark 13 and Luke 17&21/ )
My reason is to answer the question the Disciples asked Jesus
in Matthew 24:3.
2. Does Matthew 24:32-34 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? (This is where the preterists say it has ended)
3. Does Matthew 24:35 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? You really can't verify that this promise has been
fulfilled until thousands of years after the 'tribulation of those days.'
4. Does Matthew 24:36 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? Nope, this seems like a prophecy of a time
before the end of the Tribulation. Once the Tribulation Period
starts: events are timed so that most anyone can figure out
when the Lord will show up. The Lord will show up 7-years after
the signing of the peace treaty for Yisrael by the Antichrist.
The Lord will show up 3½-years after the Antichrist desecrates
the Temple in Jerusalem.
Quite frankly, I believe that Matthew 24:31-44 is talking about
the BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD (AKA: 70th Week of Daniel)
coming of Jesus to get His Church Age saints and take them
to heaven, thus ending the Church Age started at the day of Pentecost,
33AD. If Jesus was going to protect His Church through
the coming Tribulation Period, He would have used the example
of Daniel protected from the Lion's mouth while living in the
Lion's Den. Jesus would have used the example Elijah, kept safe
through the famine after Mt. Caramel. Instead, Jesus uses
the example of Noah (in Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-27)
and Lot (in Luke 17:29-32) both of whom were taken OUT of the
reach of the danger: Noah off the face of the earth, Lot
out of the Rift Vally town of Sodom.
5. Matthew 24:45-51, Matthew 25:1-30 tell several parables.
Does 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' pertain to these parables?
6. Matthew 25:31-46 tells of the Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement
which I believe follows somewhat 'after the tribulation of
those days' maybe 30 or 45 days later but not 'Immediately
after the tribulation of those days'. The milage of others
will vary.
7. Obviously Matthew 26:1, not part of the Mount Olivet
Discourse (MOD) is not modified by: 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'. Or is all that obvious?
8. In any case, one has to find a place where
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days' is not
applicable to what is said or done. That choice is either
an assumption OR is based on scripture. I base my decision
that all after Matthew 24:31 is not included in
'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' on Matthew 24:3 and the answers to the questions
of the disciples to Jesus and by assuming that Jesus answered
the three questions in the order offered.
I might add: one person's assumptions NEVER gives them
the right to display an unChristlike haughty spirit. Never
As for the order of the major events, they are displayed
right there in Revelation (and other places) for all to see:
1. the Church Age continues (Revelation 1-3)
2. the pretribulation COME UP HERE /AKA: Rapture/ (Rev 4:1, by type)
3. The 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation Period (Rev 4:2-19:10)
4. The coming of Jesus to kick Antichrist Booty (Rev 19:11-20:3)
5. The physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdon (Rev 20:3-20:6)
The Book of Revelation, of course, has many additional
'which order?' details. Amen!
Mel Miller: //He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days
after the great tribulation"!//
I missed where you first jumped to this conclusion.
In fact, the only 3½-days I know of is the time in the middle
of Tribulation period (3½-years from each end) when the
two witnesses are dead. So Mr. Recardo, you got some 'splainin' to do.
word of God that allows you to claim Jesus meant "BEFORE"
when He said He will gather the elect from earth to heaven
"AFTER" the tribulation?//
Here is how some of my pretribulation friends explain it;
The same way you do, only the 'elect' are limited
to Jewish Israeli Messanic elect saints (the gentile Christian
saved elect saints get taken to heaven in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection)
BTW, your sarcastic refutation of all my explinations is
noted
So I'll ask a question. Which verse following theMatthew 24:29 phrase: 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' is the first verse NOT modified by the phrase?
Specifically:
1. Does Matthew 24:31 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? My answer is "no" for there is a major Greek
"KAI' (english 'and') there. But others may say "yes'. BTW,
if one answers "yes" ones needs a Biblical reason (another verse
that isn't parallel /like Mark 13 and Luke 17&21/ )
My reason is to answer the question the Disciples asked Jesus
in Matthew 24:3.
2. Does Matthew 24:32-34 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? (This is where the preterists say it has ended)
3. Does Matthew 24:35 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? You really can't verify that this promise has been
fulfilled until thousands of years after the 'tribulation of those days.'
4. Does Matthew 24:36 happen 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'? Nope, this seems like a prophecy of a time
before the end of the Tribulation. Once the Tribulation Period
starts: events are timed so that most anyone can figure out
when the Lord will show up. The Lord will show up 7-years after
the signing of the peace treaty for Yisrael by the Antichrist.
The Lord will show up 3½-years after the Antichrist desecrates
the Temple in Jerusalem.
Quite frankly, I believe that Matthew 24:31-44 is talking about
the BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD (AKA: 70th Week of Daniel)
coming of Jesus to get His Church Age saints and take them
to heaven, thus ending the Church Age started at the day of Pentecost,
33AD. If Jesus was going to protect His Church through
the coming Tribulation Period, He would have used the example
of Daniel protected from the Lion's mouth while living in the
Lion's Den. Jesus would have used the example Elijah, kept safe
through the famine after Mt. Caramel. Instead, Jesus uses
the example of Noah (in Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-27)
and Lot (in Luke 17:29-32) both of whom were taken OUT of the
reach of the danger: Noah off the face of the earth, Lot
out of the Rift Vally town of Sodom.
5. Matthew 24:45-51, Matthew 25:1-30 tell several parables.
Does 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' pertain to these parables?
6. Matthew 25:31-46 tells of the Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement
which I believe follows somewhat 'after the tribulation of
those days' maybe 30 or 45 days later but not 'Immediately
after the tribulation of those days'. The milage of others
will vary.
7. Obviously Matthew 26:1, not part of the Mount Olivet
Discourse (MOD) is not modified by: 'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days'. Or is all that obvious?
8. In any case, one has to find a place where
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days' is not
applicable to what is said or done. That choice is either
an assumption OR is based on scripture. I base my decision
that all after Matthew 24:31 is not included in
'Immediately after the tribulation of
those days' on Matthew 24:3 and the answers to the questions
of the disciples to Jesus and by assuming that Jesus answered
the three questions in the order offered.
I might add: one person's assumptions NEVER gives them
the right to display an unChristlike haughty spirit. Never
As for the order of the major events, they are displayed
right there in Revelation (and other places) for all to see:
1. the Church Age continues (Revelation 1-3)
2. the pretribulation COME UP HERE /AKA: Rapture/ (Rev 4:1, by type)
3. The 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation Period (Rev 4:2-19:10)
4. The coming of Jesus to kick Antichrist Booty (Rev 19:11-20:3)
5. The physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdon (Rev 20:3-20:6)
The Book of Revelation, of course, has many additional
'which order?' details. Amen!
Mel Miller: //He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days
after the great tribulation"!//
I missed where you first jumped to this conclusion.
In fact, the only 3½-days I know of is the time in the middle
of Tribulation period (3½-years from each end) when the
two witnesses are dead. So Mr. Recardo, you got some 'splainin' to do.
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
EE,
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Mel Miller: //He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days
after the great tribulation"!//
I missed where you first jumped to this conclusion. In fact, the only 3½-days I know of is the time in the middle of Tribulation period (3½-years from each end) when the two witnesses are dead. So Mr. Recardo, you got some 'splainin' to do.
_____________________________________________________________
Anything I might add would only be a "rehash" of Mr. Recardo. Thanks! :tongue3:
EE,
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Mel Miller: //He stated the "unknown" day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days
after the great tribulation"!//
I missed where you first jumped to this conclusion. In fact, the only 3½-days I know of is the time in the middle of Tribulation period (3½-years from each end) when the two witnesses are dead. So Mr. Recardo, you got some 'splainin' to do.
_____________________________________________________________
Anything I might add would only be a "rehash" of Mr. Recardo. Thanks! :tongue3:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
oops, wrong pew
In verse 9 He says He has kept them that the Father gave to Him, and those given to Him were the 11. He had told them what prayer they were to pray, "Our Father which art in heaven…………." That is "their prayer" and not ours, for had Israel accepted Messiah, tribulation would have come first, before the millennium. So you are correct in your understanding of verse 15, for they would have gone through the tribulation.Mel Miller said:
His Father did not give Jesus any today, so that means we are to listen to Christ Jesus from heaven as He speaks to us through Paul. Paul has comforting words telling us we will be raptured, and will not go through the great tribulation. Please believe Jesus for He tells us He did not come for any today, but only for His own, and to tell you the truth, I don't know what to say to those that don't believe scripture when it is shown to them, yet they will not believe what Jesus said while He was on this earth as man. They believed Him then, and we are to believe Him now as He speaks to us in the Epistle's of Paul, and gleanings of others that apply to the Gentile.
I have given you scripture of Christ from heaven as He speaks to us today in His Word.
It looks to me you contradict. You have Peter going through the tribulation, had it come while he lived, so you proved this yourself. But you refuse to believe you will be raptured, even though Paul says yes if you are in the Body of Christ. Christ is above the tribulation to come and we are with him, so I cannot be down here when it begins.
Why don't you just give it up and accept the Word of God. It is God that says 12 hours of light, and 12 hours of dark constitute a day, and that adds up to 24 hours. Mel, you have fallen prey to what Catholics believe. They believe in "half days", for they in idol worship contend Jesus was crucified on a "Friday". Sad to say many Baptist's are now talking about "good Friday". Surely the end is rapidly approaching as people are accepting the word of man, rejecting the Word of God.
Congratulations older than I. I give deference and also help to those older than I, and can be as "crotchety" as those that are older.
Saved for 69 years, learned to stand after 21 years, walking after 36 years, and finally in the last 5 years shown to whom I am to listen to in scripture to understand our salvation today. A slow learner, but the after burner is on. In my youth I hit the tape first on the quarter mile, and as anchorman on our mile relay. I didn't drop the baton as it was passed to me on this last leg. The "tape" is in sight, and I've got my second wind. I'm going for the prize.
Again, congratulations and hope you are in as good physical health as you are mentally.
Ed Edwards
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Ituttut: //Saved for 69 years, learned to stand after 21 years, walking after 36 years, and finally in the last 5 years shown to whom I am to listen to in scripture to understand our salvation today. A slow learner, but the after burner is on. In my youth I hit the tape first on the quarter mile, and as anchorman on our mile relay. I didn't drop the baton as it was passed to me on this last leg. The "tape" is in sight, and I've got my second wind. I'm going for the prize.//
Supporting you in prayer. I pray you will win one of the
best prizes, even serving Christ on earth during the Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom! I pray you will win some of the best
crowns that The Judgment Seat of Christ passes out (to later
cast at the feet of Jesus).
Supporting you in prayer. I pray you will win one of the
best prizes, even serving Christ on earth during the Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom! I pray you will win some of the best
crowns that The Judgment Seat of Christ passes out (to later
cast at the feet of Jesus).
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
Ituttut,
How could you draw the following conclusions?
Quote:_______________________________________________________
"It looks to me you contradict. You have Peter going through the tribulation, had it come while he lived, so you proved this yourself. But you refuse to believe you will be raptured, even though Paul says yes if you are in the Body of Christ. Christ is above the tribulation to come and we are with him, so I cannot be down here when it begins".
_____________________________________________________________
How have I contradicted Paul's teaching that "God will bring the souls of those that sleep in Jesus WITH Him ... and catch up those who are alive and survive at His Presence"??? I Thess.4:13-17.
God tells the martyrs who "come out of the great tribulation that He will avenge their blood when the last one is killed who must be killed". Rev.
6:9-11. Everyone of them has his/her name written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world". Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8.
All those who "are beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years". Those who "come out of the great tribulation will serve God as Pillars in the temple of heaven and be shepherded by the Lamb" beginning with the First Resurrection. Rev.20:4-5; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.3:12.
All those who "die in the Lord", including Tribulation Saints, will be among those whom "God brings with Jesus when He comes WITH all the Saints"!
Rev.14:12-13; I Thess.4:13-17; I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14.
Paul says we should "comfort one another knowing those who survive to the End will meet their loved ones who will rise up first" ... at the First
Resurrection. Your trouble comes from assuming that we may comfort one another BECAUSE Paul says we will not go through the great tribulation. You refuse to believe that THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO HIS SON ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND THAT JESUS WILL RAISE UP EVERY ONE OF THEM ON THE LAST DAY. John 6:38-40.
And that is why we have reached a total impasse about the Endtime!!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
Ituttut,
How could you draw the following conclusions?
Quote:_______________________________________________________
"It looks to me you contradict. You have Peter going through the tribulation, had it come while he lived, so you proved this yourself. But you refuse to believe you will be raptured, even though Paul says yes if you are in the Body of Christ. Christ is above the tribulation to come and we are with him, so I cannot be down here when it begins".
_____________________________________________________________
How have I contradicted Paul's teaching that "God will bring the souls of those that sleep in Jesus WITH Him ... and catch up those who are alive and survive at His Presence"??? I Thess.4:13-17.
God tells the martyrs who "come out of the great tribulation that He will avenge their blood when the last one is killed who must be killed". Rev.
6:9-11. Everyone of them has his/her name written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world". Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8.
All those who "are beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years". Those who "come out of the great tribulation will serve God as Pillars in the temple of heaven and be shepherded by the Lamb" beginning with the First Resurrection. Rev.20:4-5; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.3:12.
All those who "die in the Lord", including Tribulation Saints, will be among those whom "God brings with Jesus when He comes WITH all the Saints"!
Rev.14:12-13; I Thess.4:13-17; I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14.
Paul says we should "comfort one another knowing those who survive to the End will meet their loved ones who will rise up first" ... at the First
Resurrection. Your trouble comes from assuming that we may comfort one another BECAUSE Paul says we will not go through the great tribulation. You refuse to believe that THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO HIS SON ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND THAT JESUS WILL RAISE UP EVERY ONE OF THEM ON THE LAST DAY. John 6:38-40.
And that is why we have reached a total impasse about the Endtime!!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
Are all from the beginning in Jesus? The Bible does not teach this.Mel Miller said:
It is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, not names written in the book.
As we have been raptured, we cannot be counted with those that go through the tribulation.
What about we that are alive, and caught up to Him?
Quite agree with you Mel, believer in Jesus Christ.
EdSutton said:
The way you and Mel are reading this verse is the same way that I read it. "……..those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
But that has nothing to do with we in the Body of Christ. I asked the question "Are all from the beginning in Jesus?" The verse answers the question for us - "…whose names are not written in the Book of Life…" So we must answer No here. The Lamb is from the beginning, as is the Book having no entries at the foundation of the world. Jesus is from the beginning, as is "This particular Book". Also the verse is mute to we today in the Body of Christ as we are raptured so this verse cannot apply to us for we are not on the earth during the great tribulation.
Mel Miller
New Member
Order of Events
Ed Sutton,
I like your response because it recognizes the Book of Life has our names written therein from the foundation of the world ... whereas Ituttut rejects this wonderful truth, i.e.,
Ituttut's Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"The Lamb is from the beginning, as is the Book having no entries at the foundation of the world".
_____________________________________________________________
Once again we see that Ituttut departs from the evengelical belief that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This is why I cannot carry on a sensible discussion with him.
And Ed, I like your quote because it recognizes a HALF POINT in favor of
the Tribulation Martyrs being the Elect who refuse to worship the Beast ... the very ones who will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple for 1000 years ... while those who survive to the END will reign over the earth".
Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-5; Rev.3:12 (Pillars in the Temple).
My friend, would you consider it another HALF POINT if we should be among the "Elect gathered together above and out of the 4 winds from all the heavens' extremities on one of the days after the great tribulation"?
(This quote includes Matt.24:31 and Matt.24:29 after Jesus "gathers
the Elect from earth to heaven" in the same Day/Hour of Mark 13:24,27).
My "trump card" here is that the Elect are "gathered together above and out of the 4 winds" at the third sound of the great trumpet ... the LAST TRUMP of I Cor.15:52. Matt.24:31. I don't find a place for the Last Trump
to sound after the Angels finish "gathering the Elect unto Jesus at the
Synagogue" in the Sky ... while the tribes of earth "mourn". 2 Thes.2:1.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
Ed Sutton,
I like your response because it recognizes the Book of Life has our names written therein from the foundation of the world ... whereas Ituttut rejects this wonderful truth, i.e.,
Ituttut's Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"The Lamb is from the beginning, as is the Book having no entries at the foundation of the world".
_____________________________________________________________
Once again we see that Ituttut departs from the evengelical belief that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This is why I cannot carry on a sensible discussion with him.
And Ed, I like your quote because it recognizes a HALF POINT in favor of
the Tribulation Martyrs being the Elect who refuse to worship the Beast ... the very ones who will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple for 1000 years ... while those who survive to the END will reign over the earth".
Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-5; Rev.3:12 (Pillars in the Temple).
My friend, would you consider it another HALF POINT if we should be among the "Elect gathered together above and out of the 4 winds from all the heavens' extremities on one of the days after the great tribulation"?
(This quote includes Matt.24:31 and Matt.24:29 after Jesus "gathers
the Elect from earth to heaven" in the same Day/Hour of Mark 13:24,27).
My "trump card" here is that the Elect are "gathered together above and out of the 4 winds" at the third sound of the great trumpet ... the LAST TRUMP of I Cor.15:52. Matt.24:31. I don't find a place for the Last Trump
to sound after the Angels finish "gathering the Elect unto Jesus at the
Synagogue" in the Sky ... while the tribes of earth "mourn". 2 Thes.2:1.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
Hello Mel. I have enjoyed our conversation's and your insight into this subject, for it has helped and strengthened my belief in the rapture, giving me even more comfort in the knowledge that the rapture comes before the great tribulation. I really hoped you would be able to find as much joy and peace as I find in verse 7 II Thessalonians 1, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." This looks to be just one more example of man searching for answers in their salvation. Never a dull moment In His Word. God knows our limitations, making us all different, keeping us busy in His Word. He wants us to know His Word, but He does make us work at it.Mel Miller said:
As to the "book of life" the Bible indicates to me this refers to those who are then dwelling on earth, and those names from the foundation of the earth were never written into the Lamb's Book of Life. This has nothing whatever to do with we today on earth, and can't in the future for the rapture awaits us before the great tribulation.
Mel Miller
New Member
:love2: Ituttut,
Amen, MY FRIEND.
At last you agree that surviving tribulation saints will be glorified when
Christ appears to take vengeance on unbelievers. The prospect that makes our joy complete! Any other prospect than the resurrection and glorification of all the martyrs on the "last day" refuses to accept Christ's and Paul's teaching that "God will bring their souls with Jesus". John 6:38,39,44,54; I Thess.4:13-14.
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
" I really hoped you would be able to find as much joy and peace as I find in verse 7 of II Thessalonians 1, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."
______________________________________________________________
Paul then reiterates this wonderful hope in verse 8-10 by adding:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on those that know not God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power WHEN He shall come to be glorified in His saints and be admired by ALL who believe ON THAT DAY"!
ON WHAT DAY are all who believe glorified? ON THE DAY Christ comes to
take vengeance on all who obey not the Gospel as of that Day. If you continue to insist that Paul is talking about himself and the saints of his day, and not about all who believe as of the DAY of Vengeance, then
I take this as another example of why we cannot keep up the "dialogue".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
Amen, MY FRIEND.
At last you agree that surviving tribulation saints will be glorified when
Christ appears to take vengeance on unbelievers. The prospect that makes our joy complete! Any other prospect than the resurrection and glorification of all the martyrs on the "last day" refuses to accept Christ's and Paul's teaching that "God will bring their souls with Jesus". John 6:38,39,44,54; I Thess.4:13-14.
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
" I really hoped you would be able to find as much joy and peace as I find in verse 7 of II Thessalonians 1, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."
______________________________________________________________
Paul then reiterates this wonderful hope in verse 8-10 by adding:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on those that know not God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power WHEN He shall come to be glorified in His saints and be admired by ALL who believe ON THAT DAY"!
ON WHAT DAY are all who believe glorified? ON THE DAY Christ comes to
take vengeance on all who obey not the Gospel as of that Day. If you continue to insist that Paul is talking about himself and the saints of his day, and not about all who believe as of the DAY of Vengeance, then
I take this as another example of why we cannot keep up the "dialogue".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net