Order of Events in Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Quote:
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Again I say we in the Body of Christ are not involved in "prophecy", so I can't see where we really need to worry about this, if we are in the Body of Christ, and if so we will be raptured. If not, we won't.

We are to be in the "Body of Christ church", not the "kingdom church". The "kingdom was at hand" that prophecy spoke to and it looked to be imminent as Jesus spoke. Had Israel accepted Messiah, the Great Tribulation would have come, and all Gentiles justified by faith would be proselytes to the Jewish "kingdom church". That did not happen. What did happen was never prophesied, and that was Damascus Road, which equals the coming of the Body of Christ for those justified through faith, neither foretold, just as the rapture was unknown.
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You write as if God's plan depended on whether Israel accepted or rejected Jesus! The phrase "Kingdom was near" does not depend on that
assumption; but on God's plan to establish His Church even though the
Jews rejected Christ.

That Kingdom will still be "near" for the Jews as of the Day Christ appears. Luke 21:31. The term "near" relates to God's perception of time; not to ours. Your "hang-up" theory of the Church not being "in prophecy" is an argument without scripture. Jesus distinguished between the Elect
whom He will "raise up on the last day ... (and gather together above so that angels may gather us all to Himself" via the Resurrection and Rapture; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1; I Thess.4:13-17) ...
and those who "mourn and beg to escape".

But that does not remove the Elect (all believers) from prophecy as you
claim! The Church did not begin after the Damascus Road experiece as you claim!! It was only the correction to false Jewish doctrine that was Paul's gospel; for he did not change the Gospel; but simply corrected the false concepts of Judaizers!!!

It is difficult to realize that the "days of vengeance and wrath" upon Israel for rejecting Christ does NOT include the "DAY of vengeance and wrath" upon those who reject the Gospel to the very last Day and Hour! Luke (and Paul later) alone reveals that Jesus had the salvation of Israel in mind on the Day He is revealed!! Matthew and Mark emphasize the deliverance of the Elect as He "gathers us together above and the angels complete the process unto Jesus at the Synagogue above". 2 Thess.2:1.

Your conclusion that "what did happen was never prophesied" is total
fabrication IMO! Paul, in Eph.2:12-22, argues that it was God's Plan!! Paul is not describing present day Israel becoming one with Gentiles; but present day Gentiles being ONE with the O.T. Commonwealth of Israel!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
__________________________________________________________
In Joel above verse 31 and 32, Before that final day in the Great Tribulation there will be darkness, and it shall come to pass "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord…."

I do not see this as His wrath, which is past, but the climactic stage as He readies to "come again and place His people where He promised. And also we cannot leave out prophecy as shown in Joel verse 28, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;…..". It is all flesh, and not just Israel.

I can see where you get your idea from, but I believe it shows contradiction of His Word, as your presentation limits to only Israel.

If this is NOT the Day of God's wrath, as stated in Rev.6:17, when is that day? You seem to say it is "past"!
____________________________________________________________

"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord" comes after His Wrath. This is reference to the millennium. All before happenings beginning with the start of the tribulation period is the beginning and the end of God's wrath. After His wrath is satisfied then the promised "kingdom that was at hand" will be reality.

The "signs" of that Day occur "before" the events of that Day begin. But
both the signs and the events occur on the same 12-Hour-Day!!

Not sure, but looks as if you are mixing this up with the "rapture"? Mel how can 7 years be crammed into a 12-Hour-Day?

The Seals, Trumpets and Vials are all His wrath. The 7th Seal turns into the 7 Trumpets, and the 7th Trumpet turns into the 7 Vials. These are more than a ½ Day of wrath.

This is the Day of Destruction for unbelievers who continue to reject the Gospel. It is also the Day of Deliverance for Israel. Jesus refers to both as taking place ON THE DAY and AT THE HOUR He is revealed from heaven. Are you trying to tell me that Jesus does NOT "raise up every believer on the last day" and that the "mourning of millions and their begging to escape and to stand before the Son of Man" is a hopeless exercise and that none of them will be "kept alive" ???!!! Luke 21:36; Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Luke 17:33; Joel 2:32; Rom.11:25-27.

You still refuse to see the comfort Paul (twice) tried to get over to the Thessalonians. I Thess. 2:19 gives indication we will be with the Lord at His second coming and 4:17 shows how this is possible. The people still needed help in understanding Paul with the comfort shown. II Thess. gives help 1:7 (visual sighting at His second coming), then the comfort again found in chapter 2. These revelations Christ gave to Paul removes the conflicts of scripture you are trying to bring together. The pieces don't fit.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
Again I say we in the Body of Christ are not involved in "prophecy", so I can't see where we really need to worry about this, if we are in the Body of Christ, and if so we will be raptured. If not, we won't.

We are to be in the "Body of Christ church", not the "kingdom church". The "kingdom was at hand" that prophecy spoke to and it looked to be imminent as Jesus spoke. Had Israel accepted Messiah, the Great Tribulation would have come, and all Gentiles justified by faith would be proselytes to the Jewish "kingdom church". That did not happen. What did happen was never prophesied, and that was Damascus Road, which equals the coming of the Body of Christ for those justified through faith, neither foretold, just as the rapture was unknown.
_____________________________________________________________

You write as if God's plan depended on whether Israel accepted or rejected Jesus! The phrase "Kingdom was near" does not depend on that
assumption; but on God's plan to establish His Church even though the
Jews rejected Christ.

The gospel then was the "kingdom is at hand", and you will have to agree the Cross and Damascus Road was the "purpose" of God. What I believe you are failing to see is Christ actually did reveal to Paul His (Christ's) gospel, which became Paul's gospel just as the Law became Moses'. No difference. God uses man (He even had to become man) to accomplish His purpose.The Cross was the purpose to make it possible for me, a gentile to be justified through faith today, and also the Jew. This is how each of we today must enter into the Body Church of Christ.

That Kingdom will still be "near" for the Jews as of the Day Christ appears. Luke 21:31. The term "near" relates to God's perception of time; not to ours. Your "hang-up" theory of the Church not being "in prophecy" is an argument without scripture. Jesus distinguished between the Elect
whom He will "raise up on the last day ... (and gather together above so that angels may gather us all to Himself" via the Resurrection and Rapture; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1; I Thess.4:13-17) ...
and those who "mourn and beg to escape".

After the "rapture" the "kingdom that was at hand", will, as you say, be "near". But it cannot happen until "prophecy" picks up where it left off.

Yes Jesus while on earth said certain things, and there were certain things He could not say while on this earth. Don't we believe God had hidden certain things from men until after Damascus Road? Those that do not believe Christ personally spoke and commissioned Paul to be the only Apostles to the Gentiles (and the Jew today) are not able to see what was hidden, else they would believe the gospel of Paul.

But that does not remove the Elect (all believers) from prophecy as you
claim! The Church did not begin after the Damascus Road experiece as you claim!! It was only the correction to false Jewish doctrine that was Paul's gospel; for he did not change the Gospel; but simply corrected the false concepts of Judaizers!!!

Yes that is true for the Judaziers wanted the Gentile to believe their gospel of justification by faith, believing in the "great commission" of man "repenting and being water baptized for the remission of their sins". But that is not all. To be in the "Body Church" we must be justified through faith, then knowing we will be raptured, for we are circumcised and baptized without hands. We don't know these things until Paul. We must know on what foundation we are to build on, on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

It is difficult to realize that the "days of vengeance and wrath" upon Israel for rejecting Christ does NOT include the "DAY of vengeance and wrath" upon those who reject the Gospel to the very last Day and Hour! Luke (and Paul later) alone reveals that Jesus had the salvation of Israel in mind on the Day He is revealed!! Matthew and Mark emphasize the deliverance of the Elect as He "gathers us together above and the angels complete the process unto Jesus at the Synagogue above". 2 Thess.2:1.

II Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of rapture. We are not to attempt to change the wording of God. Every verse and word has a purpose and a meaning. Look at the wording in verse 2. " That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." This does not say the "Kingdom is at hand, but Christ". That "Kingdom" cannot come until Christ "catches us up to Him", whether we are dead or alive.

Your conclusion that "what did happen was never prophesied" is total
fabrication IMO! Paul, in Eph.2:12-22, argues that it was God's Plan!! Paul is not describing present day Israel becoming one with Gentiles; but present day Gentiles being ONE with the O.T. Commonwealth of Israel!!!

But it is only Now we become aware of the secret hidden by God, that we can Now be justified through faith. You reasoning would put us in with all before Damascus Road of being justified by faith, be covered by the "blood of animals", of which we would of necessity be required to make "blood sacrifice", and have a High Priest make the annual "blood sacrifice", meaning we would have to endure until the end.

Hebrews 11 tells us all before were by faith. You cannot be Israel today even if you think you are justified just as they by faith. Israel was cut off by god at the stoning of Steven. No where can you find in His Word that today we are Israel. The Bible says today we are all in one pot, just as before He started His own nation, His own flock. Today we are in the Body Church, and not that Kingdom Church. Some day the two houses (foundations built on the foundation of Jesus Christ)will merge; But not until it is time.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,
Quote:
______________________________________________________________
The gospel then was the "kingdom is at hand", and you will have to agree the Cross and Damascus Road was the "purpose" of God. What I believe you are failing to see is Christ actually did reveal to Paul His (Christ's) gospel, which became Paul's gospel just as the Law became Moses'. No difference. God uses man (He even had to become man) to accomplish His purpose.The Cross was the purpose to make it possible for me, a gentile to be justified through faith today, and also the Jew. This is how each of we today must enter into the Body Church of Christ.
______________________________________________________________

The Gospel given to Paul was not a New Gospel in which, as you claim,
he taught that justification is "THROUGH faith" RATHER than another false gospel taught by Jews that justification is "BY faith"! Your constant
refusal to allow that the Church is "in prophecy" has no scriptual basis!! The reason Jesus taught the "kingdom is at hand" is because He had its
spiritual fulfillment in mind beginning AT Pentecost AND its End of the Age fulfillment ON THE DAY Christ comes in glory with ALL the Saints!!!

The Beginning of the Kingdom spiritually, in God's mind, is just as NEAR as
the Beginning of the Millennial Kingdom materially! God doesn't count time!! And all who belong to the one HOLY TEMPLE of Eph.2:22 include the Saints of the OT BY faith and Gentiles of the NT THRU faith"!!!

Your theology creates two separate groups of Saints whereas God sees
one group of Saints! Daniel 7 mentions the Saints more times than any chapter in the Bible!! These Saints clearly include ALL those coming out
of the great tribulation as martyrs PLUS those who survive to the End!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Following Quote for the second time:
In Joel above verse 31 and 32, Before that final day in the Great Tribulation there will be darkness, and it shall come to pass "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord…."

I do not see this as His wrath, which is past, but the climactic stage as He readies to "come again and place His people where He promised. And also we cannot leave out prophecy as shown in Joel verse 28, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;…..". It is all flesh, and not just Israel.

I can see where you get your idea from, but I believe it shows contradiction of His Word, as your presentation limits to only Israel.

If this is NOT the Day of God's wrath, as stated in Rev.6:17, when is that day? You seem to say it is "past"!
__________________________________________________ __________



Second response by ituttut:
"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord" comes after His Wrath. This is reference to the millennium. All before happenings beginning with the start of the tribulation period is the beginning and the end of God's wrath. After His wrath is satisfied then the promised "kingdom that was at hand" will be reality.
_____________________________________________________________

This, my friend, is utter confusion regarding the DAY of God's Wrath! First, you say it is "past" ("which is past"); then suggest that I say it is "past"!!
There is NO WRATH during the tribulation of even the great tribulation!!!

The word of Jesus is that this DAY (and HOUR) occurs "in the days AFTER the great tribulation" ("Immediately afterwrard; Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29)!Seal Six describes the signs of that 12-Hour DAY (and HOUR) of "their (God's and the Lamb's) wrath"!! Here the KJV correctly reveals that "DAY has come"; but it takes additional chapters to show the events which occur on that DAY before God's WRATH is announced as "having come"!!!
Rev.6:16-17; Rev.11:15-18.

Sadly, the KJV incorrectly attributes God's "wrath" to the Plagues when they only contain and "complete His (patient) ANGER"! Rev.15:1,7; 16:1. The KJV never once translated THUMOS as "anger" and so misleads you as the interpreter!! Please go my NEW post on the "Difference between God's Anger and His wrath!!!

Rev.14:10 predicts the imminent mixture of the "wine of God's anger in the Cup of God's Wrath"! Rev.16:19 shows one of the two RESULTS of that mixture as earth's cities and mountains disappear from the "outpouring of the wine of the Cup of ANGER AND WRATH"!! Rev.19:15 reveals the other RESULT of trampling the winepress (of the blood of rebellious unbelievers)
of God's "ANGER AND WRATH"!!!

God's anger is slow to mix with His wrath! His anger is long (macrothumia)
and so the KJV calls it "longsuffering" (Latin) to reveal the "slowness of His anger" (macrothumia again) as in 2 Peter 3:9; Rom.2:4-5; Rom.9:22)!! But His WRATH (orgay) is quick, occurs in ONE HOUR and its RESULTS are
eternal ... in HELL!!! Rev.14:11-12.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,
Quote:
__________________________________________________ ____________
The gospel then was the "kingdom is at hand", and you will have to agree the Cross and Damascus Road was the "purpose" of God. What I believe you are failing to see is Christ actually did reveal to Paul His (Christ's) gospel, which became Paul's gospel just as the Law became Moses'. No difference. God uses man (He even had to become man) to accomplish His purpose.The Cross was the purpose to make it possible for me, a gentile to be justified through faith today, and also the Jew. This is how each of we today must enter into the Body Church of Christ.
__________________________________________________ ____________

The Gospel given to Paul was not a New Gospel in which, as you claim,
he taught that justification is "THROUGH faith" RATHER than another false gospel taught by Jews that justification is "BY faith"! Your constant
refusal to allow that the Church is "in prophecy" has no scriptual basis!! The reason Jesus taught the "kingdom is at hand" is because He had its
spiritual fulfillment in mind beginning AT Pentecost AND its End of the Age fulfillment ON THE DAY Christ comes in glory with ALL the Saints!!!

Then why does Paul say Christ revealed to Him all things are new? But were not Peter and the other earthly Apostles, and others saved by faith. The Bible says they were, and sorry that you can't see that. What you are talking about is the "Judaziers (troublers) from the Pentecostal church that James could not control. This is the reason Paul, Barnabas and Titus went to Jerusalem to keep those "troublers" away from their Gentile's. They all shook hands that James and the others in Jerusalem would not preach their circumcision gospel to any uncircumcised heathen.

Of course this is the reason John the Baptist preached the Kingdom is at hand gospel, and for the Jew to "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". If we understand this, then why do we not understand the gospel of Paul, that our "remission" of sins is found when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, for now it is by the Grace of God, through faith that we are justified, without works (every last one of them from the beginning until after Damascus Road had to do a work of their hands.) Please argue your points with God, and you will lose big time.

The Beginning of the Kingdom spiritually, in God's mind, is just as NEAR as
the Beginning of the Millennial Kingdom materially! God doesn't count time!! And all who belong to the one HOLY TEMPLE of Eph.2:22 include the Saints of the OT BY faith and Gentiles of the NT THRU faith"!!!

His Word tells us we are in the times of the Gentile. Why do you say we are not for God does not count time. He tells us when these times begin, and when they end. There were those in that day that didn't believe God either. They messed up for they thought God didn't count time. They were wrong, and you are wrong.

You say you believe in certain dispensations, but you don't believe in all of them. Paul tells us Christ gave to him the "dispensational gospel" of the Grace of God - Romans 3:24, and Romans 4:5, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Who makes "blood sacrifice today"? They did during Pentecost, and afterward as long as the Temple and Jerusalem stood. The gospel is not the same as so many in all Christian denominations say. If you really believe that then why are you not offering a "blood sacrifice to God" as required by all before this dispensation.

Your theology creates two separate groups of Saints whereas God sees
one group of Saints! Daniel 7 mentions the Saints more times than any chapter in the Bible!! These Saints clearly include ALL those coming out
of the great tribulation as martyrs PLUS those who survive to the End!!!

You claim to be a "dispensationalist" but are you really? Yes there are two separate groups built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Those that build on the foundation of Peter; and those building on the foundation of Paul. This is not something ituttut says, but it is what God says. I present His Word without fear or doubt of interpretation, for this is the interpretation given by the Bible.

Daniel knew only what God told Him, and Daniel did not understand all that God told him. He had all he could handle at the time. God hid certain things from man for a purpose, and I'll not question that purpose. He deemed it necessary for His purpose, and so I believe Him.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,
Second response by ituttut:
"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord" comes after His Wrath. This is reference to the millennium. All before happenings beginning with the start of the tribulation period is the beginning and the end of God's wrath. After His wrath is satisfied then the promised "kingdom that was at hand" will be reality.
__________________________________________________

This, my friend, is utter confusion regarding the DAY of God's Wrath! First, you say it is "past" ("which is past"); then suggest that I say it is "past"!!
There is NO WRATH during the tribulation of even the great tribulation!!!

"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people", Luke 21:23.

" And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be", Matthew 24:19-21.

Mel I don't make this stuff up. He says "wrath" in Luke, and in Matthew "great tribulation". Are you saying Jesus contradicted?

The word of Jesus is that this DAY (and HOUR) occurs "in the days AFTER the great tribulation" ("Immediately afterwrard; Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29)!Seal Six describes the signs of that 12-Hour DAY (and HOUR) of "their (God's and the Lamb's) wrath"!! Here the KJV correctly reveals that "DAY has come"; but it takes additional chapters to show the events which occur on that DAY before God's WRATH is announced as "having come"!!!
Rev.6:16-17; Rev.11:15-18.

Mel you're going to have to prove Jesus did not say what Matthew and Luke say He said, before trying to explain away what He said.

Sadly, the KJV incorrectly attributes God's "wrath" to the Plagues when they only contain and "complete His (patient) ANGER"! Rev.15:1,7; 16:1. The KJV never once translated THUMOS as "anger" and so misleads you as the interpreter!! Please go my NEW post on the "Difference between God's Anger and His wrath!!!

Mel this is your quote as you interpret His Word. Quote -The "Day of Wrath" begins with Seal Six AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

God's Wrath itself does not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds for the first of
three times on the Day Christ comes in glory - Unquote.

Compare your ramblings. You're interpretations are full of contradictions.

Rev.14:10 predicts the imminent mixture of the "wine of God's anger in the Cup of God's Wrath"! Rev.16:19 shows one of the two RESULTS of that mixture as earth's cities and mountains disappear from the "outpouring of the wine of the Cup of ANGER AND WRATH"!! Rev.19:15 reveals the other RESULT of trampling the winepress (of the blood of rebellious unbelievers)
of God's "ANGER AND WRATH"!!!

God's anger is slow to mix with His wrath! His anger is long (macrothumia)
and so the KJV calls it "longsuffering" (Latin) to reveal the "slowness of His anger" (macrothumia again) as in 2 Peter 3:9; Rom.2:4-5; Rom.9:22)!! But His WRATH (orgay) is quick, occurs in ONE HOUR and its RESULTS are
eternal ... in HELL!!! Rev.14:11-12.

I really can't lay blame to those Godly men associated with the KJV. I don't believe they were as stupid as some say. They did an outstanding job in bringing us the Word of God in order for a dunce like me to understand.

Could you have it backwards? They do mix as you say, but His "wrath (or punishment ((orge))) has been around for awhile. If you remember I brought together for you "His fierce anger "with His wrath in an earlier post. Keep massaging His Word and believe you will eventually get rid of all contradictions as you interpret. His interpretation is there, without contradiction.

I have been showing you something, and you may very well be able to show me something. But until that time, I will believe what I have been shown by Him.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
His Word tells us we are in the times of the Gentile. Why do you say we are not for God does not count time. He tells us when these times begin, and when they end. There were those in that day that didn't believe God either. They messed up for they thought God didn't count time. They were wrong, and you are wrong.
_____________________________________________________________

I never said we are NOT in the "times of the Gentiles" but that God does
not count the passage of time as we do! These times will have ENDED on the Day Christ comes with ALL the Saints and rescues ALL the Jews!! In the meantime and just as Peter was saved BY or THRU faith, Paul was
saved BY or THRU faith!!!

You, my friend, have created another way of salvation since God opened
the Gospel Message thru Paul to the Gentiles! Please stop insinuating that
I don't believe God!! Since Paul's day, as Peter revealed, less than "two days" of this Dispensation have passed by in God's reckoning of time!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
The gospel is not the same as so many in all Christian denominations say. If you really believe that then why are you not offering a "blood sacrifice to God" as required by all before this dispensation.
_______________________________________________________

The means of salvation did not change with Paul! Salvation was BY or THRU faith before the law was given!! Salvation was BY or
THRU faith after the law was given and continues to be BY or THRU FAITH ... and not as you claim, by a new way of salvation!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

:tonofbricks: ituttut,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people", Luke 21:23.

" And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be", Matthew 24:19-21.

Mel I don't make this stuff up. He says "wrath" in Luke, and in Matthew "great tribulation". Are you saying Jesus contradicted?
_____________________________________________________________

My friend, Luke 21:23-24 refers to God's wrath on the Jews that will
END prior to God's Wrath that comes at the End of this Dispesation!
The Wrath that occurs ON THE DAY Christ is revealed occurs "on one of the days AFTER the greatest tribulation of all time"!! Jesus does not
contradict Himself since "wrath upon this people", the Jews, will cease
on the DAY CHRIST APPEARS with ALL the Saints"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Mel this is your quote as you interpret His Word. Quote -The "Day of Wrath" begins with Seal Six AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

God's Wrath itself does not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds for the first of
three times on the Day Christ comes in glory - Unquote.

Compare your ramblings. You're interpretations are full of contradictions.
______________________________________________________________

My friend, these two statements are not "ramblings"! Jesus Himself put the signs of Seal Six and the DAY of Wrath "in the days immediately AFTER the great tribulation"!! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29. Revelation puts
the DAY of Wrath and the APPOINTED TIME (HOUR; Rev.11:18; 7th Trumpet) of God's wrath on that same DAY ... for God's wrath will totally destroy unrepentant Beast-worshipers in less time than they could come down off their housetops!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

ituttut,

Quote:
____________________________________________________________
Could you have it backwards? They do mix as you say, but His "wrath (or punishment ((orge))) has been around for awhile. If you remember I brought together for you "His fierce anger "with His wrath in an earlier post. Keep massaging His Word and believe you will eventually get rid of all contradictions as you interpret. His interpretation is there, without contradiction.
_____________________________________________________________

Sorry to constantly have to correct you! The KJV never translates "His
fierce anger"!! The KJV refers to the "fierceness of God's wrath"
in Rev.16:19 (after the last Plague empties in the air) and again to the
winepress of the "fierceness of God's wrath" in Rev.19:15 (when Christ
descends from heaven WITH ALL the Saints!! The KJV never uses the English word "anger" in connection with the execution of God's wrath ...
Yet the execution of His wrath (orgay) awaits the mixing of the "wine of His anger (thumos) into His Cup of Wrath"!!! Rev.14:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
His Word tells us we are in the times of the Gentile. Why do you say we are not for God does not count time. He tells us when these times begin, and when they end. There were those in that day that didn't believe God either. They messed up for they thought God didn't count time. They were wrong, and you are wrong.
_____________________________________________________________

I never said we are NOT in the "times of the Gentiles" but that God does
not count the passage of time as we do! These times will have ENDED on the Day Christ comes with ALL the Saints and rescues ALL the Jews!! In the meantime and just as Peter was saved BY or THRU faith, Paul was
saved BY or THRU faith!!!

You, my friend, have created another way of salvation since God opened
the Gospel Message thru Paul to the Gentiles! Please stop insinuating that
I don't believe God!! Since Paul's day, as Peter revealed, less than "two days" of this Dispensation have passed by in God's reckoning of time!!!

The millennium is in Time. It is measured and counted as a Time. All Time is God's Time.

Another Apostle was created to tell us of the New, for the Old has been done away with. Jesus hand picked His earthly Apostles, and by way of God the Holy Spirit another was picked that had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry, and He received the same knowledge as did the eleven as to what Jesus proclaimed while on earth.

Jesus the Christ, our Lord handpicked Saul/Paul from heaven, and revealed to Him ALL THINGS NEW. Paul had talked to Peter before Christ sent him to Cornelius. The Apostles were doubtful of Paul, so Peter was sent to give the first Christian message to the heathen, and to observe how the "Gentile" is saved, and to give credibility to the "wisdom of Christ" that Paul received from Jesus Christ.

This is the reason I say Peter was allowed to present the "first recorded" gospel to the Gentile of the Cross of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Acts 10:43-44, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

This is the reason it is so incomprehensible to me that anyone saying they are in the Body Church still believes the "Kingdom Church" gospel of the "great commission".

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
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The gospel is not the same as so many in all Christian denominations say. If you really believe that then why are you not offering a "blood sacrifice to God" as required by all before this dispensation.
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The means of salvation did not change with Paul! Salvation was BY or THRU faith before the law was given!! Salvation was BY or
THRU faith after the law was given and continues to be BY or THRU FAITH ... and not as you claim, by a new way of salvation!!!

And in your understanding you are in the "Kingdom Church", and not the "Body Church", and you are correct as you say you are still living under the Law. I am not for we in His Body are in, and not under, the Law.

Those that remain under the law are of works: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12. And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

 

[ituttut]

:tonofbricks: ituttut,

Quote:
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"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people", Luke 21:23.

" And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be", Matthew 24:19-21.

Mel I don't make this stuff up. He says "wrath" in Luke, and in Matthew "great tribulation". Are you saying Jesus contradicted?
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My friend, Luke 21:23-24 refers to God's wrath on the Jews that will
END prior to God's Wrath that comes at the End of this Dispesation!
The Wrath that occurs ON THE DAY Christ is revealed occurs "on one of the days AFTER the greatest tribulation of all time"!! Jesus does not
contradict Himself since "wrath upon this people", the Jews, will cease
on the DAY CHRIST APPEARS with ALL the Saints"!!!

In love I tell you Mel, you cannot see so you cannot accept that Christ from heaven gave to Paul a "new dispensational". You will come to realize you are arguing with God, and not me. The scriptures I showed you are not my words, but the Word of God. Again, take your questioning heart to Him in this matter. He will show you the way.

As said in my previous post, you believe you will go through the tribulation, and that is what you see for you believe you are in the "Kingdom Church" (Millennium) and not the "Body Church" of eternity.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
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Mel this is your quote as you interpret His Word. Quote -The "Day of Wrath" begins with Seal Six AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

God's Wrath itself does not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds for the first of
three times on the Day Christ comes in glory - Unquote.

Compare your ramblings. You're interpretations are full of contradictions.
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My friend, these two statements are not "ramblings"! Jesus Himself put the signs of Seal Six and the DAY of Wrath "in the days immediately AFTER the great tribulation"!! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29. Revelation puts
the DAY of Wrath and the APPOINTED TIME (HOUR; Rev.11:18; 7th Trumpet) of God's wrath on that same DAY ... for God's wrath will totally destroy unrepentant Beast-worshipers in less time than they could come down off their housetops!!!

Mark 13:24 says "after that tribulation"; and Matthew 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", both indicate (as does the seals, trumpets, and vials) there are a good number of tribulations in the period of the Tribulation. So these cannot be used as you try to prove your point.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
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Could you have it backwards? They do mix as you say, but His "wrath (or punishment ((orge))) has been around for awhile. If you remember I brought together for you "His fierce anger "with His wrath in an earlier post. Keep massaging His Word and believe you will eventually get rid of all contradictions as you interpret. His interpretation is there, without contradiction.
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Sorry to constantly have to correct you! The KJV never translates "His
fierce anger"!! The KJV refers to the "fierceness of God's wrath"
in Rev.16:19 (after the last Plague empties in the air) and again to the
winepress of the "fierceness of God's wrath" in Rev.19:15 (when Christ
descends from heaven WITH ALL the Saints!! The KJV never uses the English word "anger" in connection with the execution of God's wrath ...
Yet the execution of His wrath (orgay) awaits the mixing of the "wine of His anger (thumos) into His Cup of Wrath"!!! Rev.14:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Beg to differ. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

I am not asking you to agree with me, but to just believe Him.

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Originally Posted by Mel Miller

ituttut wrote:
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Could you have it backwards? They do mix as you say, but His "wrath (or punishment ((orge))) has been around for awhile. If you remember I brought together for you "His fierce anger "with His wrath in an earlier post. Keep massaging His Word and believe you will eventually get rid of all contradictions as you interpret. His interpretation is there, without contradiction.
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Sorry to constantly have to correct you! The KJV never translates "His fierce anger"!! The KJV refers to the "fierceness of God's wrath"
in Rev.16:19 (after the last Plague empties in the air) and again to the
winepress of the "fierceness of God's wrath" in Rev.19:15 (when Christ descends from heaven WITH ALL the Saints!! The KJV never uses the English word "anger" in connection with the execution of God's wrath ... Yet the execution of His wrath (orgay) awaits the mixing of the "wine of His anger (thumos) into His Cup of Wrath"!!! Rev.14:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net


Beg to differ. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

I am not asking you to agree with me, but to just believe Him.
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Your earlier post referred to the DAYS of Wrath for Israel ONLY!
Now you switch to Isaiah for what will occur on the only DAY that God's anger and wrath are combined!! It is the coming DAY OF THE LORD!!!

Tell me please, "Why did you not respond to the KJV's incorrect
transaltion of Rev.14:10 where it is so clear that the deadly "wine
of God's THUMOS (not only His anger but His long-anger for nearly 2000 years will mix together full strength) in the Cup of His WRATH" leading instantly to eternal Hell-Fire and Damnation?

Why did you go to the OT where, in Isa.13:9,13, both words, THUMOS and ORGAY occur together in each verse? This only verifies the truth you refuse to admit!! My point all along is that God's "wrath" will not occur until Christ "comes to be glorified in all the Saints on the DAY OF WRATH (orgay) and in flaming fire to take vengeance on those who disobey the Gospel" ... resulting in Hell. 2 Thess.1:7-10; Rev.14:10-12.

Why can't you stick to a given TEXT of Scripture in which the incorrect translation proves men have swallowed the "vain tradition of men" that led translators to NOT ONCE translate THUMOS as "anger"? Col.2:8. Why can't you admit truth for a change?? I have lost interest in discussing anything with you as you equate what you think with God's Holy word and constantly put me down as being ignorant of His word!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:

 

[Mel Miller]

Order of Events

Friends,

For those who are interested, I should point out that, even in Isa.13:9,13,
the KJ translators also switched (inverted) the translation of THUMOS and ORGAY to honor the "vain tradition of men" since Plato taught that "anger must never be ascribed to God"! Origen honored Plato's philosophy even by acknowledging the antithesis of these two words!! Augustine and early Church Fathers refrained from translating makro-thumia as "long-anger", choosing rather to use the Latin "long-suffering" which, BTW, must continue until the Day of Wrath!!!

God's Wrath (ORGAY) will not be exercised against unrepentant unbelievers prior to the DAY Christ comes to be "glorified in the saints
and to be admired in all who believer"! WHY? Because "all those who
believe ON THAT DAY (including ALL Israel) will be saved!! There is no
escape for those who continue to "blaspheme God"; yet during the
4th and 5th Plagues of God's ANGER, these wicked men have the OPTION
to repent ... while the days of salvation remain!!! Rev.16:9-11.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

[ituttut]

ituttut wrote:
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Could you have it backwards? They do mix as you say, but His "wrath (or punishment ((orge))) has been around for awhile. If you remember I brought together for you "His fierce anger "with His wrath in an earlier post. Keep massaging His Word and believe you will eventually get rid of all contradictions as you interpret. His interpretation is there, without contradiction.
_____________________________________________ ___________

Sorry to constantly have to correct you! The KJV never translates "His fierce anger"!! The KJV refers to the "fierceness of God's wrath"
in Rev.16:19 (after the last Plague empties in the air) and again to the
winepress of the "fierceness of God's wrath" in Rev.19:15 (when Christ descends from heaven WITH ALL the Saints!! The KJV never uses the English word "anger" in connection with the execution of God's wrath ... Yet the execution of His wrath (orgay) awaits the mixing of the "wine of His anger (thumos) into His Cup of Wrath"!!! Rev.14:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net


Beg to differ. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

I am not asking you to agree with me, but to just believe Him.
___________________________________________________________

Your earlier post referred to the DAYS of Wrath for Israel ONLY!
Now you switch to Isaiah for what will occur on the only DAY that God's anger and wrath are combined!! It is the coming DAY OF THE LORD!!!

You are the one switching. You made a definitive positive statement, "The KJV never translates "His fierce anger"!!". I posted that which is above from Isaiah 13:9, and in it, it reads " cruel both with wrath and fierce anger.It is up to you whether you believe His Word or not, or wish to acknowledge you have learned something you were previously unaware of.

Tell me please, "Why did you not respond to the KJV's incorrect
transaltion of Rev.14:10 where it is so clear that the deadly "wine
of God's THUMOS (not only His anger but His long-anger for nearly 2000 years will mix together full strength) in the Cup of His WRATH" leading instantly to eternal Hell-Fire and Damnation?

This is what I have been telling you all along. I have said on this subject from the beginning this is the "culmination" of His Anger.

Why did you go to the OT where, in Isa.13:9,13, both words, THUMOS and ORGAY occur together in each verse? This only verifies the truth you refuse to admit!! My point all along is that God's "wrath" will not occur until Christ "comes to be glorified in all the Saints on the DAY OF WRATH (orgay) and in flaming fire to take vengeance on those who disobey the Gospel" ... resulting in Hell. 2 Thess.1:7-10; Rev.14:10-12.

Why did I go to the Old Testament? It is scripture, and I believe scripture that is in the KJV of the Bible, and the ASV; Also the YGB, DRB, WEB, and Strong's. What Bible are you using, or do you do your own translating? I don't translate His Word. He will do it for you, if you will let Him.

Why can't you stick to a given TEXT of Scripture in which the incorrect translation proves men have swallowed the "vain tradition of men" that led translators to NOT ONCE translate THUMOS as "anger"? Col.2:8. Why can't you admit truth for a change?? I have lost interest in discussing anything with you as you equate what you think with God's Holy word and constantly put me down as being ignorant of His word!!!

Then let this be the end, after I answer your "swan song" showing His Word defeated you.

Bye,