How christians present the gospel can scare people away when they try to "convince" them confrontationally to believe in Christ or "scare" them into the Kingdom by unlovingly telling them about hell and the judgment and wrath of God.
Darren.
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Order of salvation...
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
How christians present the gospel can scare people away when they try to "convince" them confrontationally to believe in Christ or "scare" them into the Kingdom by unlovingly telling them about hell and the judgment and wrath of God.
Darren.
Just saw this thread, but if I get the drift, the Calvinist's are trying to prove God causes a man to repent. That is not what I think these verses are teaching whatsoever.
First, I use the KJV only, and the verse is a little different.
2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I believe this verse is saying to be very meek toward an unbeliever, and very patient. You can be a sincere person who truly cares about another person's soul. And sometimes a Christian can be too aggressive in trying to witness to a person. I have known a few like this. They will absolutely back a person into a corner, trying to make the unbeliever confess they are a sinner in danger of hell. You have to be careful, because people will naturally put up a wall of defense. If you offend a person and make them angry, they will never listen to you. And I think that is what this verse is addressing. You have to go a little slow and gentle with some folks.
And when verse 25 says "if God peradventure will give them repentance" it is talking about the amount of time or space God will give a person to repent. God is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, but at a certain point known only to God, God will give up a person. This is shown in Revelation with Jezebel.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
God gave Jezebel time or space to repent, but she would not. So obviously she crossed the line with God and he said he would cast her into a bed and great tribulation.
But notice in verse 21 that it seems God is still giving those who have been commiting this spiritual fornication with Jezebel a chance to repent.
So, going back to 2 Timothy, I believe these verses are saying to be very longsuffering, meek, and patient with those who may seem reluctant to repent and accept Christ.
And notice that verse 26 says "and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil". It likens being unsaved as being caught in a trap like an animal. I think you could think of the gospel, the word of God as being the tool to free themselves. If a person fell into a pit, the gospel would be the ladder with which they may climb out. Or if one was bound with ropes, the gospel would be the knife or scissors to cut these ropes and free oneself.
So, these verses actually teach that man plays a part in salvation. If God throws down a ladder to you while you are in a great pit, it will not help you unless you use it to climb out.
First, I use the KJV only, and the verse is a little different.
2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I believe this verse is saying to be very meek toward an unbeliever, and very patient. You can be a sincere person who truly cares about another person's soul. And sometimes a Christian can be too aggressive in trying to witness to a person. I have known a few like this. They will absolutely back a person into a corner, trying to make the unbeliever confess they are a sinner in danger of hell. You have to be careful, because people will naturally put up a wall of defense. If you offend a person and make them angry, they will never listen to you. And I think that is what this verse is addressing. You have to go a little slow and gentle with some folks.
And when verse 25 says "if God peradventure will give them repentance" it is talking about the amount of time or space God will give a person to repent. God is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, but at a certain point known only to God, God will give up a person. This is shown in Revelation with Jezebel.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
God gave Jezebel time or space to repent, but she would not. So obviously she crossed the line with God and he said he would cast her into a bed and great tribulation.
But notice in verse 21 that it seems God is still giving those who have been commiting this spiritual fornication with Jezebel a chance to repent.
So, going back to 2 Timothy, I believe these verses are saying to be very longsuffering, meek, and patient with those who may seem reluctant to repent and accept Christ.
And notice that verse 26 says "and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil". It likens being unsaved as being caught in a trap like an animal. I think you could think of the gospel, the word of God as being the tool to free themselves. If a person fell into a pit, the gospel would be the ladder with which they may climb out. Or if one was bound with ropes, the gospel would be the knife or scissors to cut these ropes and free oneself.
So, these verses actually teach that man plays a part in salvation. If God throws down a ladder to you while you are in a great pit, it will not help you unless you use it to climb out.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Did you happen to read what was asked? You come here and there...and turn around three times....clap your hands....stand on your head...and never answer.
It is very simple
Let me paste it yet again..
***********************
STEP 1
Lets say this is a believer..
now lets ask ..
When was the believer granted repentance?
1) it was before they came to the knowledge of the truth
or
2) it was after they came to the knowledge of the truth.
Please answer this and then move to the next step.
****************
STEP 2
Lets say they are non-believers...
now lets ask ..
When was the non-believer granted repentance?
1) it was before they came to the knowledge of the truth
or
2) it was after they came to the knowledge of the truth.
********************
why the fear to answer?
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I've reread it several times. I'm not sure what he's saying. That's why I asked for an explanation.
James, you are funny. There is no fear here. :laugh:
Well, I answered. First, the verse does not say "granted". It says,
2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
First it says "peradventure" which basically means "if perhaps". And to what are they to repent? They are to repent to the "acknowledging of the truth".
What truth is it talking about? The gospel.
And notice it says they must be gentle and "apt to teach". And in vs. 25 it says "instructing those". So this is talking about being very gentle and patient in teaching people the gospel. You know, not everyone believes the gospel. I have known and met many people who believe you must get to heaven by good works. I work with an elderly Polish lady whose family was taken captive by the Russians in WWII. They shot her father who was a officer in the army, they put her mother in prison for ten years because she was a teacher and would not become a Russian citizen. Luckily, her grandmother took care of her and her older sister while they were held captive for six years. All they had to eat was potato peels. She said her only dream as a child was to have a big bowl of potatoes for herself. She saw many starve to death.
This lady was raised Catholic. I have tried to witness to her a few times. I have told her how Jesus died for everyone's sins, even the evil Nazis and Russians who murdered her friends and family. Well, this is very upsetting to her. She cannot allow herself to believe these evil people could be saved. She became very angry at me once. She believes only good people can be saved.
So, I have to be careful with this lady. The gospel is very offensive to her because it says that evil people whom she hates can be saved. And it goes against her religion she has known and trusted for over 76 years.
But you know, she often asks me about the Bible and religion. So I am hopeful. I try to explain a little bit at a time, and be careful not to offend and anger her. This is how you have to go with some people.
The verse is not talking about God imposing repentance on someone. It is talking about God being patient with a person, being very longsuffering. You teach the person a little at a time as they are willing to bear.
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
I answered your question clearly. You are trying to make the verse say something it is not saying.
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1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
That means that no one can know or understand God before he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Thus repentance comes after one has been born again.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Believing in free will can lead to compromise >>>>>>>in how we (the believer)>>>>>present the gospel >>>>>>so we do not scare people off.
If we are driven by freewill, we can began to think we are able to talk someone into believing. So we carefully choose our words in order not to scare off the person, or even compromise the gospel in order to get more saved. Numbers mean everything to some folks. Where as Christ was bold. Read John 3 where Nic came and ask...what must a do? Christ didn't tell him to pray. He didn't tell him to just ask Jesus in your heart. Nic had to be born again.
Jarthur001
Active Member
i see...
So you think leading them to a knowledge of the truth means they went to play cards.
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…(2 Tim 2:24-25)
Jarthur001
Active Member
That's not my problem, so don't blame me. I'm not going down that foolish debate that is a waste of time. If you worship a trans;ation you are the one that will have to answer to God not me.
Jarthur001
Active Member
hold on...
You mean to tell me you are building your whole case based on changing the word granted to give?
Do I understand you right?
God does not flick switches in sinner's brains and than they can repent. The bible defines repentence and how man can come to repentence elsewhere, to make a big deal of it in 2 Tim 2:25 is simply irrelevant. Besides it is clear that Paul was refering to Hymenaeus and Philetus, whom where among them as believers but have erred in the truth claiming the resurrection had already come, its THAT point that Paul is wanting them to repent of. The whole question that Jarthur001 raised is not only irrelevant to the text but its just a non issue. How those men (Hymenaeus and Philetus) change their mind in that text is not referring to unsaved non believers to repent and believe. Simple as that. They may have been believers we don't know and Paul does not assume they were unbelievers either, the Lord knows them that are HIS (believers)..
Darren
Benefactor
New Member
Order of Salvation
Pre creation salvation terms
• Plan and Purpose (election and predestination are subject to his plan and purpose)
Pre salvation words
• Hearing Truth (good news) according to the dispensation one lived or is not living in. Calling
• Conviction (the word used by the Holy Spirit) reasoning with God
• Repentance
• Faith - believe - hope
• Confession
The moment of Salvation words
• Conversion
• Saved
• Born a gain / Born from above
• Regeneration
• Justification
• Sanctification
• New creature in Christ
• New man
• Baptized into Christ
• Adoption
• Sealed
Pre creation salvation terms
• Plan and Purpose (election and predestination are subject to his plan and purpose)
Pre salvation words
• Hearing Truth (good news) according to the dispensation one lived or is not living in. Calling
• Conviction (the word used by the Holy Spirit) reasoning with God
• Repentance
• Faith - believe - hope
• Confession
The moment of Salvation words
• Conversion
• Saved
• Born a gain / Born from above
• Regeneration
• Justification
• Sanctification
• New creature in Christ
• New man
• Baptized into Christ
• Adoption
• Sealed
The order in the Bible is always this:
1) Hear the word of God
2) Believe the word of God
3) Receive the Holy Spirit and be regenrated or born again.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I challange you to show any verse that more clearly and simply explains the order of events in salvation than this. This teaches that a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
This shows that the word of God, the gospel can be presented to a person, but a person can refuse to receive it. But to those who receive it and believe it, to them God gives the power (the Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God.
Go through the book of Acts. You will see all the apostles preach the gospel to the Jews and later the Gentiles. Some believe, some do not. But those that believe receive the Holy Spirit afterward.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
You will see this over and over again. First, the preaching, then the hearers believe, then they receive the Spirit.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1)Hear the word of God
2)Believe
3)Receive the Spirit.
Read for yourself, there are many examples, and they all have this same pattern.
1) Hear the word of God
2) Believe the word of God
3) Receive the Holy Spirit and be regenrated or born again.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I challange you to show any verse that more clearly and simply explains the order of events in salvation than this. This teaches that a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
This shows that the word of God, the gospel can be presented to a person, but a person can refuse to receive it. But to those who receive it and believe it, to them God gives the power (the Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God.
Go through the book of Acts. You will see all the apostles preach the gospel to the Jews and later the Gentiles. Some believe, some do not. But those that believe receive the Holy Spirit afterward.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
You will see this over and over again. First, the preaching, then the hearers believe, then they receive the Spirit.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1)Hear the word of God
2)Believe
3)Receive the Spirit.
Read for yourself, there are many examples, and they all have this same pattern.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
if you does not matter as you say.....than just answer what was ask.
Why all the dodging around?? It don't matter....its a "NON ISSUE"......so just be true to the text and answer.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Exactly!! :thumbs:
And repentence for the sinner is to believe. Act 2:38 "Repent" was completed by believing, v 41 they received the word and were baptized and added to the church. That big deal of a word "repent" worked by believing. If you like; God granted them repentence, how? By hearing the gospel preached. Too simple.
Darren
Benefactor
Where I might disagree with you is repentance and faith. I believe they are the same thing. When a person repents, they turn from unbelief to believeing on Jesus. So, they are the same.
Take a person who believes you are saved by good works. When the gospel is preached to them, they realize you cannot be saved this way. So they repent or turn from this belief. They also turn from believeing they can save themselves through works and believe only Jesus can save them.
So, repentance and faith are often the very same thing.
Where I might disagree with you is repentance and faith. I believe they are the same thing. When a person repents, they turn from unbelief to believeing on Jesus. So, they are the same.
Take a person who believes you are saved by good works. When the gospel is preached to them, they realize you cannot be saved this way. So they repent or turn from this belief. They also turn from believeing they can save themselves through works and believe only Jesus can save them.
So, repentance and faith are often the very same thing.