Ordination Questions?

[Jim1999]

IF a person graduated from a respectable Bible college or seminary certainly they wold be familiar with the technical wording.

If the candidate gives his doctrinal statement certainly he will understand what they mean.

The most important thing is, Can they explain them to an unlearned community sitting in a pew? That is what concerns me.

His doctrinal statement will confirm his theological soundess. If a man graduates from any school and has a confirmed view on eschatology, I shall have grave doubts about his standing. He has just followed his professor. I want everything in pew language. As I was instructed by one professor, "Jim, keep it simple in presentation. Profoundess is not defined in big words, it is clearly taught simply so a child can understand the essentials."

We are testing a person for their calling to ministry, not asking for a lifetime's experience in two hours.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ordination is NOT to glorify ignorance. It is the mark that the man of God is spirit-called to ministry and qualified.

We are to be able to give an answer to any who ask about the hope within us. Basic (and soteriology - redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, atonement, adoption, election, predestination, regeneration, etc ARE "basic" to any believer) Bible doctrine is a MUST.

Would you want a pastor who did not understand the hypostatic union of God/man in Christ Jesus? Would you listen to a man who could not explain the Triune godhead or great doctrinal truths of our salvation?

Maybe you'd be happy with someone spouting a man-centric false Gospel of ripping a text from its context, given 20 sob-stories, and a 1-2-3-pray-after-me 30 minute invitation. I would walk out.

Eldership demands work and sacrifice and study. We have enough churches that are handing out ordination like candy on Oct 31. Or "kawleges" handing out bogus degrees.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes, mighty and high sir. Some are not worthy of your opinion.

What does that mean?

 

[Jim1999]

I worry about the man who has all the answers. He usually also makes up the questions.

I am not denying a proper and full education. I am not denying an essential knowledge of theology and Bible.

I am asking for a man who can preach the word of God simply and understandably to the average congregation.

I don't give invitations after a service, thank you very much.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Baptist Believer]

Those who say that ordination is not biblical seems to be ignoring the biblical teaching that a man is to be tested prior to ministering.

If this is a reference to what I have said previously, please note that I did not intend to imply that I think ordination is not biblical. The primary reason I did not submit to ordination years ago when I was in vocational ministry was because the church wanted to do it in a way I believed was unbiblical. Furthermore, they attached certain beliefs to ordination that were in error, and I wanted to demonstrate to them that ordination does not make a person an authority regarding scripture (although persons who are ordained should be persons who both know and live the word of God).

It is true that God calls a man, but that call is testified to by a local church who has had the opportunity to examine a man's life and doctrine and affirm his call. This should never be ignored in favor of some mystical "God called me" answer.

Agreed.

A candidate should write an extensive doctrinal statement covering all areas of biblical doctrine. This statement should be 12-15 pages in length (1 to 1 1/2 pages for each doctrine. Prior to the council, this statement should be distributed to all members of the council for their review, and at the ordination council, questions should be asked to determine or clarify the beliefs and positions of a candidate.

15 pages seems to be a little thin for a doctrinal statement!

The council should consist of like-minded pastors who are doctrinally sound and knowledgeable, who can ask intelligent questions.

"Like-minded"? Do you believe that a candidate for ordination (as well as the ordination committee) should be completely doctrinally-consistent? For instance, what about differences regarding alien-immersion baptism, spiritual gifts, the "doctrines of grace" or eschatology? What about philosophies regarding cooperative missions or the relationship between church and state?

What kind of leeway would a committee in your church allow a candidate for ordination?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Check again. They are all there. The word pneumatology is from the word pneuma, meaning Spirit or spirit. The word hamartiology is the word hamartios, meaning sin. The words themselves are taken right out of the Bible.

They are the words that are used in the theology books. While I don't necessarily expect church members to know them (though it would be good, and when I teach the doctrines I teach what the word means), a pastor who does not know them is inexcusable.

I have to agree.

sag38, if a candidate for ordination has not run across these terms, they have not been involved in serious study of the scripture, at least to the point where they are ready to teach a congregation. These words are used in theology books and articles, and in thoughtful, educated discussion. An ordination candidate who cannot be troubled to learn the basics of theological discussion is someone who is obviously not interested in being a lifelong student of scripture.

As a person who gained the most intensive knowledge of scripture as a college student studying the Bible for 4-6 hours each day over the course of 16 months, mostly late at night, without the aid of any human teacher guiding my studies, I ran into those terms by following up on questions raised and answered as I carefully studied each book of the Bible and established the framework of my theological understanding. By the time I actually began the seven years of my formal theological education, I had already learned the meaning of most of those words through my independent study.

It's not the same thing as demanding that a candidate learn Greek and Hebrew before being ordained!

 

[Pastor Larry]

15 pages seems to be a little thin for a doctrinal statement!

Remember, it is a summary, and has to be defended in a couple of hours. It certainly won't be exhaustive.

"Like-minded"? Do you believe that a candidate for ordination (as well as the ordination committee) should be completely doctrinally-consistent? For instance, what about differences regarding alien-immersion baptism, spiritual gifts, the "doctrines of grace" or eschatology? What about philosophies regarding cooperative missions or the relationship between church and state?

What kind of leeway would a committee in your church allow a candidate for ordination?

These are certainly things to be explored in the questioning. Some are intramural debates, where good men differ, and some are not. In our church, I doubt we would ordain a man who denied the doctrines of grace, because of our commitment to what we believe the Scripture teaches about the matter. If he was a "four-pointer" however, that would not be an issue. I would not lead the church to ordain someone who was not pretribulational, or someone that believed in infant baptism, or someone that believed sign gifts were for today, or someone that believed only one translation was the word of God. These are matters on which I think the Bible is sufficiently clear that we would not put our stamp of approval on his ministry.

Other matters leave some room for disagreement. It is hard to list out what the deal-breakers would be. If a specific issue was mentioned (as it was above), I would state what I think I would do. But in a nutshell, I think a candidate for ordination should be a member of the ordaining church and be in substantial agreement with its doctrinal statement.

 

[Jim1999]

You would make eschatology a test of fellowship???

If we did that we wouldn't have a fellowship of some 550 churches.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[preachinjesus]

The last time I checked none of these technical words were in the Bible.

Neither are the terms...Trinity, Bible, hymnal, worship service, evangelical, or theology. But we use them...that argument isn't awfully good.

Honestly, I had to refresh my memory. They are not words that I use in my everyday ministry nor in discussions with other pastors. We talk about the end times not eschatology. We talk about the Holy Spirit not pneumatology.

The point here is not that the candidate needs to use these terms on a daily or even frequent basis but that they understand them and can explain them. God calls pastors to be teachers and theologians. Explaining difficult questions of faith and theology goes hand and hand with a pulpit ministry. To be able to explain something complicated in simplicity requires being able to have an understanding of it in its complicated state.

The issue here isn't intellectual snobbery but that we can fulfill God's call for our lives.

Yes, mighty and high sir. Some are not worthy of your opinion.

That is just mean spirited and you need to apologize.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You would make eschatology a test of fellowship???

I didn't say that. I said I would make it a test of ordination, which is a higher level than "fellowship." There are various levels of fellowship. I can have a cup of coffee with just about anybody. I can participate in a conference with fewer people, but still a wide variety. But I will work hand in hand in local church ministry with a more select group. As the relationship gets closer, the need for doctrinal agreement becomes greater.

Think about it this way: Ordination is a church saying that they find a man qualified to teach and minister in that church. Ordination is not really done for the sake of another church. Why would a church ordain someone who thinks that the church's doctrinal position/statement is wrong? They shouldn't.

If a church has no official position on eschatology, then I suppose they might ordain someone who holds to just about any position. But if a church is convinced that pretribulationism is biblical (as they should be), then why would they ordain a man who denies that?

Remember, ordination is different than fellowship.

 

[Baptist Believer]

But in a nutshell, I think a candidate for ordination should be a member of the ordaining church and be in substantial agreement with its doctrinal statement.

Fair enough.

Thanks for letting me pursue that line of questioning.

 

[Dr. Bob]

My ordination paper was 29 pages. Why so long for a summary of doctrines? Well, i had been seated on many councils prior to my ordination (probably 15-20 from 1963-1973). Saw men with their papers well outline and a bunch of references to support their views. When asked a particular question, they couldn't remember the verse or which of the references to pull up. Deer in the headlights look.

So, the ever-practical Bob simply TYPED OUT IN FULL the supporting verses for each of my points!! So I could not be "stuck" trying to remember a text or reference. It made the church mimeograph run a few more pages, but worth it to MY peace of mind.

 

[John Toppass]

Sometimes I think we get to caught up in the edumacation and not the Word that we should study. I think it is admirable that some folks can translate from the Greek and Hebrew. I have even found it helpful to know the history of the time and what was likely meant when a particular word was used at that point and time. It not only helps me defend my beliefs, but most importantly, it creates a confirmation within me for the way God deals with me thru his word.
Reading the Word of God, along with prayer, meditation, fasting, fellowship with other Christians, worship, exaltation in private and with alike believers, all these do more for my Christian walk than any degree that is to be had.

I think we hold too high those who obtain these degrees without proof that they even understand them. What is even worse is when the person with the degree holds themselves in a higher accord.
I hope we never forget that, in the church, the most high hierarchy are to serve subordinates.

Mark 9:35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

When the Holy Spirit is feeding my understanding with the Word of God, no amount of degrees or mans words can give me a greater a understanding of what I am reading and praying about.

A higher formal education has a place in God's will on earth but just like different gifts, the higher formal education is a calling of an individual and not a people.

The higher the calling, the more the servant serves. That is where we learn the real defining characteristics of a Christian seeking the walk with God.

 

[PeterM]

Sometimes I think we get to caught up in the edumacation and not the Word that we should study. I think it is admirable that some folks can translate from the Greek and Hebrew. I have even found it helpful to know the history of the time and what was likely meant when a particular word was used at that point and time. It not only helps me defend my beliefs, but most importantly, it creates a confirmation within me for the way God deals with me thru his word.
Reading the Word of God, along with prayer, meditation, fasting, fellowship with other Christians, worship, exaltation in private and with alike believers, all these do more for my Christian walk than any degree that is to be had.

I think we hold too high those who obtain these degrees without proof that they even understand them. What is even worse is when the person with the degree holds themselves in a higher accord.
I hope we never forget that, in the church, the most high hierarchy are to serve subordinates.

Mark 9:35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

When the Holy Spirit is feeding my understanding with the Word of God, no amount of degrees or mans words can give me a greater a understanding of what I am reading and praying about.

A higher formal education has a place in God's will on earth but just like different gifts, the higher formal education is a calling of an individual and not a people.

The higher the calling, the more the servant serves. That is where we learn the real defining characteristics of a Christian seeking the walk with God.

Don't you know that the more degrees one has, the more one is qualified to serve. Seriously, while that was intended to be an attempt at humor, it seems that certain circles in Baptist life have embraced that thinking. How ofter do you see a pastor without a D.Min or Ph.D pastor a church with 1,000 members or more? Is that because that is what God desires or is that a man made standard?

 

[TCGreek]

Seriously, while that was intended to be an attempt at humor, it seems that certain circles in Baptist life have embraced that thinking. How ofter do you see a pastor without a D.Min or Ph.D pastor a church with 1,000 members or more? Is that because that is what God desires or is that a man made standard?

PeterM,

It's a manmade standard.

 

[Pastor Larry]

How ofter do you see a pastor without a D.Min or Ph.D pastor a church with 1,000 members or more? Is that because that is what God desires or is that a man made standard?

Truthfully, probably quite often. But even at that, it may simply be that a person with greater education is a better leader and a better preacher and therefore attracts more people to the church.

 

[TCGreek]

Truthfully, probably quite often. But even at that, it may simply be that a person with greater education is a better leader and a better preacher and therefore attracts more people to the church.

In all my reading of leadership literature, a person's education contributes very little to their leadership ability.

 

[PeterM]

In all my reading of leadership literature, a person's education contributes very little to their leadership ability.

:thumbs:... Personality and attitude have more to do with one's ability to lead than higher education. You can have a great education, but if you are a bitter, angry, negative person you will never truly inspire people to follow.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In all my reading of leadership literature, a person's education contributes very little to their leadership ability.

My point is that people who pursue higher education are the type that are more typically gifted and driven to be leaders. Secondly, those who pursue higher education are typically better equipped to be good preachers of the Word.

So my point is that not that education makes one a better leader (though in some cases it certainly equips gifted people). My point is that leaders are certain types of people.

 

[Jim1999]

On education: Get all you can when you can, but don't let a lack of education hold you back. An education can be formal schooling or it can be self instituted. Both have been successful, and both have made fools of themselves. It all boils down to what we do with learning, even more than how much schooling we have had.

I am 81 and I still take one course each year from somewhere. Bless the computer which has made this possible for me.

One such course even used the computer as a classroom. It was a chatroom. I had trouble keeping up from a typing standpoint, but the young people were very gracious to me and we all shared what we were learning.

Cheers,

Jim