Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

[Allan]

Again, I think this perplexity is resolved by learning to differentiate between chronology and logic. It is illogical to suppose a person has true faith in Christ, is being sanctified, et. without also having been delivered from the power of Satan. The one is the cause of the other.

Conversion, repentance, faith, sanctification, must all be, quite logically, the effect of union with Christ. Strong wrote, "The Scriptures declare that, through the operation of God, there is constituted a union of the soul with Christ different in kind from God’s natural and providential concursus with all spirits, as well as from all unions of mere association or sympathy, moral likeness, or moral influence,—a union of life, in which the human spirit, while then most truly possessing its own individuality and personal distinctness, is interpenetrated and energized by the Spirit of Christ, is made inscrutably but indissolubly one with him, and so becomes a member and partaker of that regenerated, believing, and justified humanity of which he is the head."

Amen.

I have to disagree. Chronology should always follow a logical line of thought. For system of things that transpire to be logical but not chronological defies real logic.

You are bringing your presupposition to the text and do not allow the text to define itself. It does not state we believe by justification but that we are justified by faith. Faith is the vehicle to being justified.

Again here we find Mr Strong (along with the Reformed view - IMO) is incorrect on this issue not because I say so but because the scripture speaks expressly to the contrary. You are not dealing with the text brother. I am asking for a proper exegesis of the text I have given. I know what the Reformed view of regeneration is and that is why I wish to discuss scripture regarding not the 'what it does or is' but 'how it does this' prior to the excersizing of ones faith as the Reformed view believes. Point in fact, scripturally it can not be done. IF I am wrong then I am willing to see it and repent - seriously. However, what if I'm right? Are you seriously willing to search it out??

If so, can we continue in discussing the aspects of regeneration which the Reformed view holds transpire prior to faith logically and compare them to the scripture contextually? (I am not meaning to offend you brother because I do want to either know the truth as you understand it, or share the truth with you as I understand it)

It is this that I wish to discuss those verses which I believe contradict the notions afore mentioned contextually. As I stated many times, I agree that regeneration includes justification, sanctification, being both alive and in Christ, as well as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But the kicker is all those scriptures which state none of the above are imparted apart from the excersizing of faith - first!

I believe the scripture shows a logical order that is seen chronologically based upon the both the texts and cotext of the passages. Texts such as those I am speaking of here dealing not with what regeneration is (I agree here - except for the faith aspect) but how does it justify, sanctify, make one righteous, one alive and in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit apart from faith being excersized first, as says the scriptures?

 

[Allan]

Can you just try to answer my questions? If you cannot handle debate that is supported by both Scripture and statements from others, I suggest you bow out now.

You have posed no question yet.

Besides I have asked you the questions thus far and still no answer except that of Mr. Strong that is still not dealing neither with the question nor texts given.

I suggest a better attitude brother as I have respectfully and consistantly dealt with each and every post given but you have yet to give anything exegetical to the texts given.

Please explain how one is justified, sanctified, made righteous, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and both alive and in Christ prior to the excersizing OF faith, when scripture states it exactly the opposite of your theological view. It is 'by faith' they are imparted as says the Holy Writ.

 

[MB]

Scripture supports both view of being "born again":

1. Before the exercise of faith: 1 John 5:1

2. After the exercise of faith:

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God" (John 1:12, 13; 1 Pet 1:22, 23).

Maybe you could explain your view futher to me because they both indicate faith before Salvation.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Certainly faith comes before regeneration in this verse.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This indicates Salvation is all of God but it also indicates that man may receive before he receives the power to become a son of God. It doesn't say man is regenerated before or after

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The only seed I know of is God's word.
ia

 

[Allan]

Regeneration by Scripture is solely the work and operation of God the Holy Spirit.

No one has denied such, especially not me.

How is it then, since you press a chronology, that a man may have faith, be being sanctified, delievered from the bondage of sin and satan, et. apart from being regenerate?

I 'press' only what scripture 'stresses' and that being that none of what transpires at regeneration happen before one excersizes faith.
One is not sanctified prior to the excersizing of faith as says the scriptures
"It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)". Please show exegetically how this statement by Paul is false?

I am not the one insisting faith precedes regeneration. I am the one insisting that logically regeneration precedes faith, but chronologically they are simultaneous.

Actaully you are. You insist on a logical falicy which contradicts a scriptural order of faith first then justification, sanctification, righteousness, alive and in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

They are 'almost' simultanious and even you admit that with your logical order view. Scripture states something is 'by faith' and you say well that is not the 'real' order but this is.. Why because the first contradicts your theological view and the second is necessary to maintain it. I only want to keep to the scriptures.

Does scripture state or does it not that all those things thus far spoken of regarding the aspects of regeneration are all 'by faith':

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Please exegetically dispove how none of the above transpire without faith FIRST being excersized.

I

cannot imagine a man or woman or child joining in spiritual union with Christ who does not also possess faith in Him.

No one has said such, and again especially not me. However the mere fact one has faith but has not excersized it in no way makes them in union with Christ. It is by the excersizing of ones faith that one comes into unity in Christ. If one has unexcersized faith then one has no faith. Your statement makes one saved before faith is excersized yet scripture states it is by faith we are saved.

Salvation cannot be pigeonholed to one aspect of our redemption, such as regeneration or faith or sanctification or glorification.

Salvation is general term for all that transpires. But it is not "pigeonholed" as you call it but the facts of scripture, and that which I wish to debate. Regeneration is salvation but unlike the general term (salvation) regeneration is specific regarding what has happened to create the new man and the removal of the old man (which includes sin)

Without regeneration man cannot even see the kingdom of God, yet you propose he can believe (seeing) without it!

Your right but Regeneration is salvation not some theological construct of something before hand. No unsaved person can see or better perceive what the Kingdom of God is doing which is why no unsaved person can enter the kingdom of God as well, which Jesus also states. One must believe in order to see

I have before proven, by Scripture, that faith and love, holiness and righteousness of the believer is the fruit of their regeneration, that is, being born of God.

Again, no you have not proven anything either textually nor exegetically regarding faith being apart of the regeneration but as I have shown it is in fact scripturally contradictory. However with all the rest I agree but regeneration is salvation and not something before it.

 

[MB]

You have posed no question yet.

Besides I have asked you the questions thus far and still no answer except that of Mr. Strong that is still not dealing neither with the question nor texts given.

I suggest a better attitude brother as I have respectfully and consistantly dealt with each and every post given but you have yet to give anything exegetical to the texts given.

Please explain how one is justified, sanctified, made righteous, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and both alive and in Christ prior to the excersizing OF faith, when scripture states it exactly the opposite of your theological view. It is 'by faith' they are imparted as says the Holy Writ.

Is it the righteousness of Christ we wear or is it some other righteousness when we put on the New man? Isn't the "New Man" Jesus Christ ? Isn't He the second Adam? If so why is it so far fetched that it is the faith of Jesus Christ we are saved by.
MB

 

[Allan]

I will be back in a week or so because my wife is giving going into the hospital to give birth to our 5 child.

God bless.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I will be back in a week or so because my wife is giving going into the hospital to give birth to our 5 child.

God bless.

Don't worry Allan. Your posts are way too long, and I just don't have the tiem for them for this topic.

 

[TCGreek]

Maybe you could explain your view futher to me because they both indicate faith before Salvation.
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Certainly faith comes before regeneration in this verse.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This indicates Salvation is all of God but it also indicates that man may receive before he receives the power to become a son of God. It doesn't say man is regenerated before or after

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The only seed I know of is God's word.
ia

MB,

In 1 John 5:1, "born" is perfect tense in the Greek and is better rendered:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him" (ESV, emphasis added).

In other words, "faith in Jesus" is a result of being born of God already.

That's the true force of the perfect tense.

 

[webdog]

Don't worry Allan. Your posts are way too long, and I just don't have the tiem for them for this topic.

Wasn't it you that started the original ordo salutis thread?
<cough>excuse<cough>

 

[webdog]

I will be back in a week or so because my wife is giving going into the hospital to give birth to our 5 child.

God bless.

Praying for your wife and child. Congratulations!

 

[TCGreek]

Praying for your wife and child. Congratulations!

Yes, congrats, indeed to Tim and his wife and the newborn that is on its way.

 

[webdog]

Yes, congrats, indeed to Tim and his wife and the newborn that is on its way.

Who's Tim?

 

[TCGreek]

Who's Tim?

Sorry, it's Allan and his wife.

Thanks, Webdog. :thumbs:

 

[MB]

MB,

In 1 John 5:1, "born" is perfect tense in the Greek and is better rendered:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him" (ESV, emphasis added).

In other words, "faith in Jesus" is a result of being born of God already.

That's the true force of the perfect tense.

This is applying grammar to a language that people spoke two thousand years ago when in there time there were no rules of grammar. Even today we all speak often enough ignoring those rules.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been bornof God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him"
There is more than just believing that something is true. We must believe in. IOW's trusting in Him because of our belief. This is "believing in" Him.

The belief part that's easy. It's when we trust in Him that it can be hard to do. The first time we trust in Him is really a leap of faith. It's placing our hope in Him.
MB

 

[skypair]

I Regardless of it is belief or faith (according to your view) even you seem to agree that the regeneration comes only after faith is excersized.

Sorry, Allan. I was trying to build a bridge that we all could cross to get from belief to regeneration. As I see it, regeneration requires a "seed" (Mt 13), an "incoruptible seed" (1Pet 1:23), from which to "germinate." If that is not "engrafted" (James 1:21) somehow into a person, no life/regeneration can come forth.

God doesn't irresistible make you "receive" that gospel as in "Now you listen, and you listen good!" You either "receive [it] with meekness unto the saving of your soul" (Jas 1:21) and to regeneration OR "the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in the heart," Mt 13:19.

Bottom line: The word needs to be "engrafted" BEFORE regeneration can occur.

skypair

 

[Allan]

Thanks for the congradulation guys

We have a beautiful baby girl (Naomi Quinn) and the mom and babe are doing great.

 

[TCGreek]

Thanks for the congradulation guys

We have a beautiful baby girl (Naomi Quinn) and the mom and babe are doing great.

Allan, that's great! Thanks for sharing some more.

 

[Allan]

Don't worry Allan. Your posts are way too long, and I just don't have the tiem for them for this topic.

Then let us keep it short.. sound good.

You state in your Reformed beliefs a logical order of regeneration (justified, sanctified, being in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit) before or prior to the excersizing of ones faith.

I said (and believe) that scripture defies this outright by declaring that justification, sanctification, being placed in Christ, and filled with the Holy Spirit are all brought about BY faith or better when one excersizes faith in Christ.

Does scripture state or does it not that all those things we have thus far spoken of (regarding the aspects of regeneration) are all 'by faith':

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Thus I conclude not one of the above scripturally can 'ever' transpire or be imparted to us, without the excersizing of faith. Justification, Sanctification, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, being placed into Christ, and even the propitiation being applied are all (according to scripture) given/imparted to us through or by faith.

 

[Allan]

Allan, that's great! Thanks for sharing some more.

Thank you TCG. I appciate that.

 

[Allan]

Don't worry Allan. Your posts are way too long, and I just don't have the tiem for them for this topic.

I will state again, Regeneration and faith are almost simultanious but only in that at the momont one done the other is immediate. So there is an actaul first here and not just an assumed first. It is noted that even you admit this with your logical order view.

When scripture states something is 'by faith' and then you say well that is not how it really happened or that it is the 'real' order but this is.. are you not disputing the scriptures what it is explicitely stating?