Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

[ReformedBaptist]

I will state again, Regeneration and faith are almost simultanious but only in that at the momont one done the other is immediate. So there is an actaul first here and not just an assumed first. It is noted that even you admit this with your logical order view.

When scripture states something is 'by faith' and then you say well that is not how it really happened or that it is the 'real' order but this is.. are you not disputing the scriptures what it is explicitely stating?

I am saying that I have yet to read an ordu salutis in the Scripture. It is an interesting subject, but theologians have spent WAY too much time on something the Scripture does not explicity teach.

 

[Allan]

I am saying that I have yet to read an ordu salutis in the Scripture. It is an interesting subject, but theologians have spent WAY too much time on something the Scripture does not explicity teach.

So you are stating scripture does not state:
1. Justification is 'by faith'
2. Sanctification is 'by faith'
3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is 'by faith'
4. are in Christ 'by faith' (thus spiritually alive)

???

That IS an order my friend and as far as I know (limited though it may be) the only ones who can not see or do not admit this order described in scripture are those who have a different theological view of the order than what the bible explicitly states.

Therefore it is concluded that if regeneration entails the impartation of all the above, then regeneration does not precede faith follows after the excersizing of said faith. Thus it is an order (both chronologically and logically) of faith then regeneration.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So you are stating scripture does not state:
1. Justification is 'by faith'
2. Sanctification is 'by faith'
3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is 'by faith'
4. are in Christ 'by faith' (thus spiritually alive)

???

That IS an order my friend and as far as I know (limited though it may be) the only ones who can not see or do not admit this order described in scripture are those who have a different theological view of the order than what the bible explicitly states.

Therefore it is concluded that if regeneration entails the impartation of all the above, then regeneration does not precede faith follows after the excersizing of said faith. Thus it is an order (both chronologically and logically) of faith then regeneration.

As I remarked before Allan, the texts of Scripture that support your points above do not teach an ordo salutis. They teach faith vs. works. If you want to hold to your ordo salutis, be my guest.

Your conclusions, in my opinion, make you and your freewill the cause of your regeneration. Congratulations. Your one of the first in human history to raise themselves from the dead...

 

[webdog]

As I remarked before Allan, the texts of Scripture that support your points above do not teach an ordo salutis. They teach faith vs. works. If you want to hold to your ordo salutis, be my guest.

Your conclusions, in my opinion, make you and your freewill the cause of your regeneration. Congratulations. Your one of the first in human history to raise themselves from the dead...

RB, that is more played out than the theme song to Titanic. It is the lamest strawman given by the reformed. I notice you didn't actually deal with Allan's points, just erected another strawman. Typical. The passages teach more than faith v. works. A clear order of that faith is presented, yet you deny the very basic tenants of Scripture.

I remember a time on the BB where you actually debated. I see you have fallen into the typical ad hominem trap most calvinists on the BB fall into.

 

[Allan]

As I remarked before Allan, the texts of Scripture that support your points above do not teach an ordo salutis. They teach faith vs. works. If you want to hold to your ordo salutis, be my guest.

Then I emplore you to actaully study the scriptures rather than creeds and confessions 'about' the scriptures. I agree that the passage is speaking of faith vs works and it states without reservation or equivocation that we are not justified by our works but 'by faith'.

So I again ask you simply, plainly and in short:
1. Are you or are you not justified 'by faith' (Rom 3:28)?

2. Are you or are you not sanctified 'by faith' (Acts 26:18)?

3. Are you or are you not indwelt with Holy Spirit 'by faith' (Gal 3:14)?

4. Are you or are you not made righteous 'by faith' (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)?

Are you actaully gonna deny what scripture states point blank in favor of your theological position that have been shown scripturally incorrect on this point? Brother, you leave me quite stunned.

Scripture states that these things are NOT imparted prior to the excersizing of faith but because of faith that is excersized toward Christ. Common RB let's get serious here and actaully look at what scripture says and not what someone says about the scriptures.

Your conclusions, in my opinion, make you and your freewill the cause of your regeneration.

I am not the first cause of my regeneration but according to scripture (irregardless of what men say) my being regenerated was an act of God and was imparted 'by, through, or because of' the excersizing of faith in/on Christ Jesus. Scripture is plain and absolute on this issue, I just wish you would take time to read, study, and talk about it.

IF scripture states that it is 'by faith' you are justified (and all the others), which is in direct opposition to your theological view of being justified first therefore you excersize faith, then you are faced with two options:
1) either you must re-examine what you believe in light of biblical fact or 2) cling to your theology above the scriptures.

Common RB, I believe much better of you than this.

 

[Allan]

RB, that is more played out than the theme song to Titanic. It is the lamest strawman given by the reformed. I notice you didn't actually deal with Allan's points, just erected another strawman. Typical. The passages teach more than faith v. works. A clear order of that faith is presented, yet you deny the very basic tenants of Scripture.

I remember a time on the BB where you actually debated. I see you have fallen into the typical ad hominem trap most calvinists on the BB fall into.

It is interesting isn't it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I am not the first cause of my regeneration but according to scripture (irregardless of what men say) my being regenerated was an act of God and was imparted 'by, through, or because of' the excersizing of faith in/on Christ Jesus.

That is sad. The first statement that regeneration is the act of God is 100% accurate.

But then, whoa nelly, the reason for that is MY WORKS!! "I" put faith in Christ (something unregenerate man cannot do according to Rom 3:10-12) and exercised "MY" faith in Christ.

That is 100% pelagian works and outright error of false religion.

"I" and "MY" should never modify the work God did.

"God regenerated me because I . . . " is blasphemy against the holy Spirit.

You may want to rethink your sentence quoted.

 

[Allan]

That is sad. The first statement that regeneration is the act of God is 100% accurate.

But then, whoa nelly, the reason for that is MY WORKS!! "I" put faith in Christ (something unregenerate man cannot do according to Rom 3:10-12) and exercised "MY" faith in Christ.

That is 100% pelagian works and outright error of false religion.

"I" and "MY" should never modify the work God did.

"God regenerated me because I . . . " is blasphemy against the holy Spirit.

Faith is not a work Dr. and you should know this (Rom 4:4-6)

Even you as a Calvinist do not deny placing 'your' faith in Christ. You 'were' the one to believe - correct? It was 'you' who placed said faith in Christ - correct?

Or

Are you suggesting that 'God' placed your faith in Christ and that it was God who believed for you??

Nice twisting of scripture on Rom 3 though. Please note this is speaking of man without the Spirit's influence in his life.
Keep the context and it will help keep you from such mistakes

Might I suggest you become more aquainted with what Pelagianism is before you toss your ad-homs around. The main theme of the Pelagian view is that a person comes to God without any aide or influence from God at all and the semi-pel holds much the same with the exception that once one decides to be saved he 'then' realizes he can not so God rewards him with the grace to be saved. My views come no where close to or near this.

Lastly - as an administrator and a christian you should know better than making the statement that I have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, which I have in no way done in any scriptural sense. Stating that it is by faith we are saved and that it is by faith we are regenerated is NOT blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. BTW - you did NOT quote me because I did not state what you "quoted" (check it again). What I have stated here-in are the facts of scripture and they stand as God's own testimony against such views that add to the scritpures what is not there. If regeneration entails justification, sanctificaiton, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, being made righteous (and because of all these we are now placed into Christ) then we are regenerated 'by faith' or the excersizing of faith, period and NOT prior it. You may not like it but it is still fact.

Please either deal with the OP and or the individaul posts speaking to the aspects of regeneration by imparted by or through faith or please keep your opinions of mens views and the ad-homs to yourself. I am trying to simply discuss what the scriptures say - thank you.

Editted for due to being a little to sharp tongued by me - I appologize.

 

[Allan]

That is sad. The first statement that regeneration is the act of God is 100% accurate.

But then, whoa nelly, the reason for that is MY WORKS!! "I" put faith in Christ (something unregenerate man cannot do according to Rom 3:10-12) and exercised "MY" faith in Christ.

That is 100% pelagian works and outright error of false religion.

"I" and "MY" should never modify the work God did.

"God regenerated me because I . . . " is blasphemy against the holy Spirit.

You may want to rethink your sentence quoted.

Now if you will please answer the following that I also stated to RB:

Then I emplore you to actaully study the scriptures rather than creeds and confessions 'about' the scriptures. I agree that the passage is speaking of faith vs works and it states without reservation or equivocation that we are not justified by our works but 'by faith'.

So I again ask you simply, plainly and in short:
1. Are you or are you not justified 'by faith' (Rom 3:28)?

2. Are you or are you not sanctified 'by faith' (Acts 26:18)?

3. Are you or are you not indwelt with Holy Spirit 'by faith' (Gal 3:14)?

4. Are you or are you not made righteous 'by faith' (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)?

Are you actaully gonna deny what scripture states point blank in favor of your theological position that have been shown scripturally incorrect on this point? Brother, you leave me quite stunned.

Scripture states that these things are NOT imparted prior to the excersizing of faith but because of faith that is excersized toward Christ. Common RB let's get serious here and actaully look at what scripture says and not what someone says about the scriptures.

 

[webdog]

That is sad. The first statement that regeneration is the act of God is 100% accurate.

But then, whoa nelly, the reason for that is MY WORKS!! "I" put faith in Christ (something unregenerate man cannot do according to Rom 3:10-12) and exercised "MY" faith in Christ.

That is 100% pelagian works and outright error of false religion.

"I" and "MY" should never modify the work God did.

"God regenerated me because I . . . " is blasphemy against the holy Spirit.

You may want to rethink your sentence quoted.

How can something straight from Scriture be "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jarthur001]

Since the original thread has taken on a life of it's own, I decided to continue a topic that was being discussed by myself and Reformed Baptist concerning 'regeneration' and is it 'logical order' (as Reformed beliefs hold) or is it a specific order that transpires almost instantaniously.

IOW -
1. Is regeneration a prelude to salvation or it is salvation itself?
2. Is faith included in the regeneration or does it precede it?


So let's continue on, shall we

yes we shall.

If we were to follow Bible teaching, life comes 1st. Before understanding.

 

[Allan]

yes we shall.

If we were to follow Bible teaching, life comes 1st. Before understanding.

Great, but how about we stick 'first' with the OP and move on from there- k? Remember this is a discussion about 'regeneration' and 'how' it transpires. After this we will talk about 'dead' issue.

Do you agree with RB and the Refomed view that regeneration entails being justified, sanctified, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, made righteous before God, and placed into Christ (as well as being given faith) - all this before the faith God gave (in your view) is excercised??

IF so then what do you do with the passages of scripture I gave stating all the above do not happen prior to faith but are imparted by, through, or because of the excercising of faith?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The way Allan and Webdog have degenerated this thread is why I don't post much anymore. I will see you both before the Lord Jesus and we will see how much "I" is in your regeneration.

 

[skypair]

The way Allan and Webdog have degenerated this thread is why I don't post much anymore. I will see you both before the Lord Jesus and we will see how much "I" is in your regeneration.

Just make sure you don't presume that you have no part in your salvation -- else we may not meet at the same time before Jesus.

I'm sure you would agree that there are many people who know the gospel message but who "sit on their hands" having the smug but erroneous notion that understanding it proves they are saved.

Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, [THEN] ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

According to this passage, I do not see that regeneration by the Holy Spirit can come until after one believes. Do you?

Would it make any more sense to you if I quoted Acts 2:38 again? Believing the gospel, we are to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

skypair

 

[MB]

Hi Allan;

I don't see it as the Calvinist do but I do see that Salvation is all of God. Man's decision as you and skypair call it isn't a decision to believe or a choice of Christ as opposed to Satan.

It seems to me that both Calvinist and freewillers have missed the message. You both have some things right but neither side includeds all aspects of what scripture teaches. Shouldn't we consider all of what God's word actually says? Eph 2:8 teaches that it is all of God and Act 16:31 teaches that we must believe first. Both are right though not the way both sides describe it.

Man must be willing to listen but man's willingness to listen is brought on by the drawing to hear the gospel. Man's will is influenced by his senses. Man senses a drawing to hear what the gospel is all about. If the man ever believes he will believe only if he is convinced. Therefore his belief is dependant on the one doing the convincing. Man doesn't choose to believe because, he is either convinced or he isn't. There is always the rebellious nature of man and this nature is what makes a decision and it's always to rebel or not. Man's freewill doesn't extend any futher than that.

You are right about regeneration this does not happen until the man is convinced and becomes a believer. Being saved before faith is not biblical in any way. Many are drawn and many hear the gospel and yet reject it because they have chosen to reject it. However if a man is completely convinced of the truth he can't help but believe it. If the man chooses to rebel even then and some do. He still believes it and it convicts him to the bone. He has no choice in believing it but he isn't saved until he surrenders to Christ. You may disagree with me but this is how I came to know this. This above is exactly what happened to me.

I fought against accepting Christ in spite of the fact that I believed all that I had been taught about Christ. It haunted me it never let me have any peace. It convicted me ever time I heard His name. My own convictions pursued me to absolute defeat. Once defeated there wasn't any other way to go except death and I considerd it. Finaly I gave up and surrenderd. It wasn't a choice but the results of the work of God on my heart. Every bit of the process of my own Salvation was the work of God, from the drawing, to convincing, to belief, and surrender.

You might say "well you had to decide to surrender there for there's your decision". I would say no because to me life is to precious to commit suicide that means I had no choice. If you ever reached the bottom of your self, then you know there is only one way to go from there. :thumbs: UP!
MB

 

[webdog]

The way Allan and Webdog have degenerated this thread is why I don't post much anymore. I will see you both before the Lord Jesus and we will see how much "I" is in your regeneration.

Copout. I suppose throwing around "pelagian" is not degeneration

BTW, there is no "I" in regeneration. It's the result of faith.

 

[Jarthur001]

Great, but how about we stick 'first' with the OP and move on from there- k? Remember this is a discussion about 'regeneration' and 'how' it transpires. After this we will talk about 'dead' issue.

I talked about life.

Life.."regeneration" comes before understanding. That is what the Bible says, and that is what my post said.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Copout. I suppose throwing around "pelagian" is not degeneration

BTW, there is no "I" in regeneration. It's the result of faith.

What arrogance.

 

[webdog]

Nothing arrogant about proclaiming biblical Truth. Arrogance is using the crutch the thread has "degenerated" below your level due to point blank questions posed to you.

 

[skypair]

I don't see it as the Calvinist do but I do see that Salvation is all of God. Man's decision as you and skypair call it isn't a decision to believe or a choice of Christ as opposed to Satan.

IOW, you are insinuating that we are like the demons who can believe but cannot choose??

Eph 2:8 teaches that it is all of God and Act 16:31 teaches that we must believe first. Both are right though not the way both sides describe it.

You're getting confused here, MB. Eph does NOT say "all of God." It says faith and even grace is a "gift of God." That does not mean that we don't have to believe it before we receive it. Similarly, Acts says we must believe, then RECEIVE.

skypair