Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

[Dr. Bob]

I would also add to the calvinist philosophical approach to spiritual death, that death means a ceasing or ending of life. Life was there at one point, and ended.

Man WAS alive and walking with God daily in Eden. Wow!

But in Adam all died. And now we, by nature, are children of wrath and dead in trespasses and sin. Pretty clear.

Whole list of metaphors and graphic simply terms to show what man no longer can do

Nothing good
Nothing righteous
Not able to seek, call, come, want, will or wish
Can't even understand with his sin-darkened reason

Thanks a lot, Adam.

When I get to heaven I'm gonna slap Adam (if he's there) upside the head . .

 

[Jarthur001]

Apparently you aren't reading the same scriptures I am. Those who sit in darkness (spiritually dead) do not 'see' the light?

You keep jumping from verse to verse pulling things out of context to try to prove your point. Each passage must be looked at in context.

Matt 4 is quoting Isa 9. If you read by passage together and understand this is the beginning of Christ ministy you would also understand that this passage is talking about Christ bringing in the elect.

Notice verses 2 and 3..
2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

Now as I was saying this is all talked about in detail in one passage.

John 1....

Life comes 1st...

Then light from that light...

Those that saw the light in Matt 4 and Isa 9 were born again. This is why they were added to the church. Again if it were by mans will John 1 lied to us. Should we remove John 1:13?

Look again and re-evalute position which is in direct contradiction to scripture:

Please read my post above.

If all I needed was one verse to destroy your opinion, this does it with absolute certainty. However There are mutlitudes of other verses which show that the unregenerate do indeed see the light and can choose to no longer be in darkness.

You can destroy my opinion all you want. But please believe the Bible. Life comes 1st.
Not by the will of man. understand?

So I ask ONCE AGAIN, in accordance with the scriptures already provided:
Are we not justified 'by faith'?
Are we not sanctified 'by faith'?
Are we not indwelt by the Holy Spirit 'by faith'?
Are we not made righteous before a holy God 'by faith'?
In light of all the above being that which places us lawfully into Christ, is it not 'by faith'? we are regenerate/made alive/or born-again.

Please show scriptures which state any of the above transpirie prior to the excercising of faith if you believe otherwise.

To understand being born again, you must understand the wind.

Study the wind and maybe you will understand.

 

[Jarthur001]

You haven't even dealt with them so.. no, have supported nothing whatsoever.

maybe you missed it. John 1...

In Him is life and the life was the light of men.

Does scripture state or does it not that it is 'by faith' we are justified, sanctified, indwelt, made righeous, and thus alive (regenerate) in Christ??

It is a simple question to answer brother.

yes it is simple. And I have answered this in another post already.

This is not regeneration, but rather what happens to those who are regenerated.


Again...

LIFE....

Then..

Light

Understand?

 

[Jarthur001]

It seems to me that Calvinist have taken a metaphor and considered it literal. Being dead spiritually isn't a literal death. If it were then they would have a point with there claim "The dead don't understand they can't hear" The truth is that scripture doesn’t support a disability with understanding or hearing.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
This verse is true just as it is stated. Yet it doesn’t say that man can’t understand or that he can’t hear. The reason men don’t understand is because they either haven’t heard or will not listen.
The natural man loves darkness but when that man is drawn. He can hear and understand. God is not going to waste His breath on someone who can’t.
If being spiritually dead isn’t a metaphor then explain why when we are saved does Paul say.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How is it we can sin if we are dead to it? We sin because being dead to sin is a metaphor just as is being spiritually dead is a metaphor. Calvinist have taken this metaphor and exaggerated it to be literal. This is why you feel that regeneration has to happen before faith. You simply have fell for your own exaggeration.
Christ commanded all who have ears to be able to hear.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Just about everyone has ears. Yet Calvinist insist that the non-regenerate can’t hear. I don’t understand why they can’t see the truth. I fear that the truth is stolen from them. Stolen by the fore fathers they hold so highly in reverence.
MB

I'll pass on most of your folly seen in this post.

But I would like to know what you meant by this...

You said...

I don’t understand why they can’t see the truth. I fear that the truth is stolen from them.

Being that God is truth....what do you mean?

And....

Give me a name of the person on persons or being that has stolen the truth from me.

Thanks

 

[Allan]

You keep jumping from verse to verse pulling things out of context to try to prove your point. Each passage must be looked at in context.

You haven't shown ANYWHERE that they are out of context. You know better than to ask people to just believe what you say - prove it.

Matt 4 is quoting Isa 9. If you read by passage together and understand this is the beginning of Christ ministy you would also understand that this passage is talking about Christ bringing in the elect.

Notice verses 2 and 3..
2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

Yess.... It was a reference to Elect Israel or the Whole of Isreal . It was to Israel (you know - the nation who rejected Him) that in their darkness (to which they were sitting now rather than walking - as Isa states) His Light was seen by them. Them = National Israel. Those same ones you 'claim' can not see the light without being alive first. Now - was ALL of the Nation saved? (HINT- According to Paul, not yet but it will eventually be ) John was declaring that the Light has come which Isaiah prophesied would indeed come and bring peace the national ethinic Israel.

Now as I was saying this is all talked about in detail in one passage.

John 1....

Life comes 1st...

Then light from that light...

Those that saw the light in Matt 4 and Isa 9 were born again. This is why they were added to the church. Again if it were by mans will John 1 lied to us. Should we remove John 1:13?

No, just your rendering of what it means. I already showed you through multiple posts that one CAN NOT be alive and NOT ALREADY IN the Light. Yet they are in the darkness 'seeing' the light and God is calling them 'from' it to Himself.

You keep going back to your opinion of what John 1 is stating (which has no biblical foundation) and I have showed scripturally that you 'opinion' is absolutely and scripturally false - that life must come first. It is for this reason I believe you wont touch the question about 'Does scripture state or does it not that we justified, sanctified, .. ect. - by faith" Or that you wont touch those passages I gave in conjuction with the one above. They absolute refute your theological position.

You can destroy my opinion all you want. But please believe the Bible. Life comes 1st.
Not by the will of man. understand?

It appears you wont 'hear' or 'see'. I am giving you multitudes of verses (in context) which refute your theological view and you don't even deal with the points I give. That isn't debating brother, it is I'm right regardless of what you say. I am at least dealing with each and everything you are stating.

Of course man will not understand if left to himself - no one disputes this because no man can just up and determine he is gonna be saved today. God must work on each man that he might accept or reject the truths God reveals to him.

To understand being born again, you must understand the wind.

Study the wind and maybe you will understand.

No, to understand being born again one must understand "the regeneration".
The Holy Spirit determines how, when and where He will convict and reveal God's truths to each and every man but salvation or being born-again is determined by when a man is regenerated - and that is 'by faith'.

You still have not dealt with this and it is the crux of the matter and the intent of the OP.

 

[Allan]

maybe you missed it. John 1...

In Him is life and the life was the light of men.



yes it is simple. And I have answered this in another post already.

This is not regeneration, but rather what happens to those who are regenerated.


Again...

LIFE....

Then..

Light

Understand?

Incorrect sir. You stated (as per my question about what regeneration entials - justification, sanctifation, indwelling, righteous, and IN Christ) you agree that this is 'regeneration' and that all this is imparted prior to the excercising of ones faith.

You have not shown any scripture for which to base such an assumption but I have shown multitudes of scripture which states none of the above are imparted apart from the excercising of ones faith - thus one is not regenerate except 'by faith'.

Regeneration is the justification and sanctification of a person. It is because of these that a person in declared righteous before a thrice holy God, and it is because of these two things that a person is placed INTO Christ where there is both Life AND Light (you can not have one without the other in Christ). And it is due to the justification and sanctification of a man that the Holy Spirit can indwell them being that there no sin and being IN Christ.

Scripture states dear brother absolutely that justification and sanctification are ONLY - by faith and never prior to it.

 

[Jarthur001]

You haven't shown ANYWHERE that they are out of context. You know better than to ask people to just believe what you say - prove it.


Yess.... It was a reference to Elect Israel or the Whole of Isreal . It was to Israel (you know - the nation who rejected Him) that in their darkness (to which they were sitting now rather than walking - as Isa states) His Light was seen by them. Them = National Israel. Those same ones you 'claim' can not see the light without being alive first. Now - was ALL of the Nation saved? (HINT- According to Paul, not yet but it will eventually be ) John was declaring that the Light has come which Isaiah prophesied would indeed come and bring peace the national ethinic Israel.

And where we go to another passage. Each point that is made, you reply by changing passages. Stick to one passage at a time.

As to the new passage by Paul, I have been over that many times to show you what it means, yet you still don't get it.

As to the ones that see the light...
This was yet another passage in Romans 1...to show you what Paul meant when using the word "know". It is knowing facts.

As to John was declaring that the Light has come which Isaiah prophesied...the passage you was talking about was in Matt 4, not John.

No, just your rendering of what it means.

And that is what a answer is Allan. And you render your mind and disagee. You keep saying this "rendering of what it means"....as if you do not. All could say this. This is poor debate.

I already showed you through multiple posts that one CAN NOT be alive and NOT ALREADY IN the Light

.
Case in point:....( No Allan you only showed me your meaning)

see how poor that is?

Yet they are in the darkness 'seeing' the light and God is calling them 'from' it to Himself.

It becomes pointless to repeat over and over. All men are in darkness and no one can see the light/understanding. It is when the new birth comes that man comes to the light. The passage in Matt which is a quote from Isa is talking about adding the elect to the kingdom. (please don't jump back to romans)

It is clear that those were born again for they once were in the dark and now they see.

You keep going back to your opinion of what John 1 is stating

boring

(which has no biblical foundation)

it would be to easy for me to say...."which is your opinion"...so I will not say it.

and I have showed scripturally that you 'opinion' is absolutely and scripturally false -

OPINION? I mean yours?

that life must come first.

Not my words...Life that LIGHTS. Not light that gives life. Sorry

It is for this reason I believe you wont touch the question about 'Does scripture state or does it not that we justified, sanctified, .. ect. - by faith"

This is the 3rd time you have asked...the 3rd time I will answer...and each time you say I will not. Your no prophet Allan.

YES <<<<< ANSWER.

But last time you asked if this was the same as the new birth.

which I said...

NO<<<<< ANSWER

before that you said.....oh never mind.

Or that you wont touch those passages I gave in conjuction with the one above. They absolute refute your theological position.

hogwash.

It appears you wont 'hear' or 'see'.

What do you mean Allan?

I am giving you multitudes of verses (in context) which refute your theological view and you don't even deal with the points I give.

All the other verse you posted in that list made no point. Matt 4 would have made a point if the reader did not know it was a quote from Isa 9 and that Christ had just begin His ministry. Allan...why is it that you have fooled your self into thinking you have made any points? Just like in the past you jump for victory, when one does not reply to each statement fully as you would like them too. At times others see no need, for they are a waste of time. If however you really believe one or all of those other verses hits a big home run for your thoughts, please post them one at a times and I will address each passage. But the deal is...when I answer...do not jump to yet another passage. OK?

That isn't debating brother, it is I'm right regardless of what you say. I am at least dealing with each and everything you are stating.

disagree with me...I could care less.

Life that lights men....

No, to understand being born again one must understand "the regeneration".
The Holy Spirit determines how, when and where He will convict and reveal God's truths to each and every man but salvation or being born-again is determined by when a man is regenerated - and that is 'by faith'

.
NO? I disagree.

You still have not dealt with this and it is the crux of the matter and the intent of the OP.

Life that lights men.

 

[Jarthur001]

GOD SAID in His Holy Book...

In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Incorrect sir.

:godisgood: :godisgood:

 

[Allan]

And where we go to another passage. Each point that is made, you reply by changing passages. Stick to one passage at a time.

As to the new passage by Paul, I have been over that many times to show you what it means, yet you still don't get it.

As to the ones that see the light...
This was yet another passage in Romans 1...to show you what Paul meant when using the word "know". It is knowing facts.

As to John was declaring that the Light has come which Isaiah prophesied...the passage you was talking about was in Matt 4, not John.

It is the SAME light that Matthew was speaking of, to which John was speaking. They aren't two different lights man! They are one and the same, bith refer to a spiritual light which is Christ and Christ 'gives' light to all men. Where in the world do you get you stuff from?

Secondly, I have not changed to any 'other' passages except with what you give and anything that is correllary (sp?). I would like you to deal with what I gave you refuting your veiw. I deal with what you give expressly but in context.

You keep saying they only know the facts about God. Well buddy, if they know the facts about God, sin, and judgment to come, they also know about their need for Him. The whole point is - they reject it as truth. They understand just as you and I do, but the only difference isn't 'understanding' you keep saying but receiving it as truth. There isn't a distinction in scripture between them knowing the facts about God and us knowing the facts about God.

It becomes pointless to repeat over and over. All men are in darkness and no one can see the light/understanding. It is when the new birth comes that man comes to the light. The passage in Matt which is a quote from Isa is talking about adding the elect to the kingdom. (please don't jump back to romans)

First off you haven't proven your first contention.
Secondly Yes, National Israel. To place the NT saints in that is contextual dishonestly. And BTW - I didn't cite Romans nor did I say Romans, I merely pointed out that Paul agrees with me

It is clear that those were born again for they once were in the dark and now they see.

Again with the contextual dishonestly. Scripture never, no not ever, states they 'were' in darkness and 'now' they see. Scripture states IN Darkness they SEE. Look back again at the passages I have given. Show me one passage that states in the light they saw the light. No, it states IN the darkness they saw light.

This is the 3rd time you have asked...the 3rd time I will answer...and each time you say I will not. Your no prophet Allan.

YES <<<<< ANSWER.

But last time you asked if this was the same as the new birth.

which I said...

NO<<<<< ANSWER

So now you are contending that the 'regeneration' is not the new birth?
Please, make up your mind.

Regeneration means new life. If the first is true to which you agree then the second is also true which is established by the first.

All the other verse you posted in that list made no point.

LOL :laugh:
Oh but they did. They state that those IN darkness SAW the light and that IN the darkness God called them FROM it TO Himself. A complete and absolute contradiction of your view.

Allan...why is it that you have fooled your self into thinking you have made any points?

Your right James. Then show me what I am stating as refute to you is wrong. But it seems to apparent that no amount of scripture (taken in context) will get you to believe the scripture over your theological view. Deal with the scriptures I have given to show my error. The one you did deal with did not show any error because I was illistrating by Matt verse those in darkness SAW a great light. Those being National Isael to whom the context is expressly stating is in view. Israel as a Nation rejected Christ (those in darkness) but they still SAW a great light. They just rejected it.

Just like in the past you jump for victory, when one does not reply to each statement fully as you would like them too.

It is my OP and I can request you address each point to give discussion and debate to the thread which I generated. I have that right. I have done you the courtisy of dealing with each and every one you have given and I would, at the very least, expect such courtisy in return.

At times others see no need, for they are a waste of time. If however you really believe one or all of those other verses hits a big home run for your thoughts, please post them one at a times and I will address each passage. But the deal is...when I answer...do not jump to yet another passage. OK?

LOL ... that is what I have been asking of YOU. You don't deal with what I give. You make a snide remark and return to your pet thought.

 

[Allan]

GOD SAID in His Holy Book...

Yes He did but He did not mean what you have invented.

 

[Allan]

Let us begin again:

You state - Life brings light. That unless one is born again they can not see light.
For this you state John 1 which states "In Him (Jesus) is life and the life was the ligtht of men".

Problems with this view contextually:
1. Just a few passage down it states that Jesus "lights every man that comes into the word".

The passage to which you keep returning speaks of Christ being the sourse of both natural life and spiritual life - no question.
However John qualifies what kind of light he will be addressing by speaking of this life giving light - which is a reference to spiritual enlightenment not natural intelligence.

Thus when John states Jesus "lights every man that comes into the world" it is not a reference to the natural but the spiritual since that is the context John is taking regarding John 1. - spiritual.

Your whole view breaks down in this verse because it would have every man that comes into the world being born again in your version, if (as you state) one only has light because one is alive.

This is in context with passage. Light does not equal life, but in order to have life one must have light.

 

[Allan]

Now back to my questions about regeneration:

1. You state that justification, sanctification, rightousness, indwelling, and being In Christ all come about 'by faith' - so you agree with me here.

2. You also agreed with me that all the above are the aspects of the regeneration.

3. But then you stated that they are not the new birth - which IS the regeneration.


Let us reveiw this 3rd part - which makes no sense to me.
What MAKES a person new (the old things are no longer, everything is now new) or what constitutes the new birth?

Does He give us something (a new spirit) like giving a child a new bike to replace the old one? OR Does He renew the old by cleansing it and bring it back to it's intended original state?

I believe scripture supports the later:
Scritpure states:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice they are only a new creation once they are IN Christ not before.

How do we (according to scripture come into Christ)? Answer - through faith.

But in your view, we are a new creation and in Christ while still in sin (thus needing a saviour and to repent).
It is through the cleansing of Christ's death (the propitiation) where by we are allowed entrance. Why? Because it justifies and sanctifies us, making us righteous, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit - thus placing us into Chrsit.

And all of these you agreed come about or are imparted by faith and not prior to it.

Without which being new or not we are still in our sins and thus dead, and if dead we are still in Darkness.

But when all the above are imparted (done to man by God) it is only then that one can biblically state they are a new creation - Old things are no more (sin and seperation from God - the old life) behold all things have become new.

 

[Allan]

Here again are each of the verses given which plainly and contextually state those in darkness see the light which you have stated they can not do. (As well as my commentary on those passages)

"Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."

This passage deals expressly with National Israel. However There are mutlitudes of other verses which show that the unregenerate do indeed see the light and can choose to no longer be in darkness.

"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "

Here is another one. The light is to those who ARE IN Darkness and in the 'shadow of death' (under condemnation but not yet condemned) to guide them to peace.

"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "

He came as a light in the world (to unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness James. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

This is one of the most open and shut cases in scripture next to a few others.
God opening their eyes to turn them FROM darkness TO light. From Satan's power (which they are currently under and in - thus 'from' it) to God - SO THEY MAY RECIEVE.. forgiveness of sins (justification) and the inheritance (which includes the Holy Spirit) of those who are sanctifed (another aspect of the regeneration which can not be imparted apart from justification) BY FAITH. This does not state they are sanctified prior to the excercising of faith but AFTER.

This is one of the proverbial nails in your views coffin of being alive or regenerate in order TO believe. Scripture states absolutely - false.

"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

The are IN darkness when God calls to them to come out INTO the light. If one is in darkness then one is dead or seperated relationally from God.

 

[Jarthur001]

It is the SAME light that Matthew was speaking of, to which John was speaking. They aren't two different lights man! They are one and the same, bith refer to a spiritual light which is Christ and Christ 'gives' light to all men. Where in the world do you get you stuff from?

Of course it is the same light. I was just showing where you changed passages AGAIN.

Secondly, I have not changed to any 'other' passages except with what you give and anything that is correllary (sp?). I would like you to deal with what I gave you refuting your veiw. I deal with what you give expressly but in context.

haha...good one.

You keep saying they only know the facts about God. Well buddy, if they know the facts about God, sin, and judgment to come, they also know about their need for Him. The whole point is - they reject it as truth. They understand just as you and I do, but the only difference isn't 'understanding' you keep saying but receiving it as truth. There isn't a distinction in scripture between them knowing the facts about God and us knowing the facts about God.

Lets do this the easy way Allan.

This part was over your passage in Romans that you took us to when we were looking at John 1. I say that these people know about God, but never saw their need for God...which in my view is in all man because of sin nature. Therefore they rejected God, which is what sinful man does. Knowing God in Godly wisdom, is understanding your need for God in the 3 offices I posted before. You can agree or disagree. Just don't say I did not address your post.

First off you haven't proven your first contention.

I need not prove anything. I posted a verse. You reject it.

BTW..that is not the only verse.

Again with the contextual dishonestly. Scripture never, no not ever, states they 'were' in darkness and 'now' they see. Scripture states IN Darkness they SEE. Look back again at the passages I have given. Show me one passage that states in the light they saw the light. No, it states IN the darkness they saw light.

Maybe you do not understand a light switch. Google "how does a light switch work" and it may "cast light" on the subject.

As to the passages you want to see....

Just read the ones you posted.

So now you are contending that the 'regeneration' is not the new birth?
Please, make up your mind.

If you would take the time to read the post that you write, you would understand why one time it is yes..and the other time it is no. You may have left out a word or two.

Regeneration means new life.

You got that right.

If the first is true to which you agree then the second is also true which is established by the first.

unless you left out something.

But let us be clear.
The new birth comes before understanding.
The new birth is not by the will of man.

LOL :laugh:
Oh but they did. They state that those IN darkness SAW the light and that IN the darkness God called them FROM it TO Himself. A complete and absolute contradiction of your view.

I have posted my views on Matt 4. You can reject them if you want.

The other verses teach my view. You just don't know it yet.

Your right James. Then show me what I am stating as refute to you is wrong.

Ok...

Life was the light of men.

Understand?

It is my OP and I can request you address each point to give discussion and debate to the thread which I generated. I have that right. I have done you the courtisy of dealing with each and every one you have given and I would, at the very least, expect such courtisy in return.

FROM OP...

1. Is regeneration a prelude to salvation or it is salvation itself?
2. Is faith included in the regeneration or does it precede it?

answer 1.....YES
Life was the light of men.

answer 2...NO
Life was the light of men

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes He did but He did not mean what you have invented.

Life was the light of men.
I didn't invent it. Nor is it my "pet" saying. Its called the Bible.

 

[Jarthur001]

Let us begin again:

You state - Life brings light. That unless one is born again they can not see light.
For this you state John 1 which states "In Him (Jesus) is life and the life was the ligtht of men".

Problems with this view contextually:
1. Just a few passage down it states that Jesus "lights every man that comes into the word".

Why do you see this as a problem? If it is in the Bible it is no problem. Also, you would think that if I had placed so much weight on this passage I would have read more then just one verse. Maybe...just maybe I have read your verse you fell is key.

In any case we are not getting to the point. At times it takes a while with you.

The passage to which you keep returning speaks of Christ being the sourse of both natural life and spiritual life - no question.

Thanks Allan. That didn't hurt to much.

However John qualifies what kind of light he will be addressing by speaking of this life giving light - which is a reference to spiritual enlightenment not natural intelligence.

Please go into more detail. I can not tell if we agree or disagree.

Thus when John states Jesus "lights every man that comes into the world" it is not a reference to the natural but the spiritual since that is the context John is taking regarding John 1. - spiritual.

OK...

Your whole view breaks down in this verse because it would have every man that comes into the world being born again in your version, if (as you state) one only has light because one is alive.

Not so. I'm going to be short on this. I just got a call so I need to leave. I believe I covered this in light form before. If not, I will post it later.

This is in context with passage. Light does not equal life, but in order to have life one must have light.

I disagree. I will tell you why later.

Thanks for slowing down and having a real debate.

Later....James

 

[Allan]

Lets do this the easy way Allan.

This part was over your passage in Romans that you took us to when we were looking at John 1. I say that these people know about God, but never saw their need for God...which in my view is in all man because of sin nature. Therefore they rejected God, which is what sinful man does. Knowing God in Godly wisdom, is understanding your need for God in the 3 offices I posted before. You can agree or disagree. Just don't say I did not address your post.

And yet scripture decidedly contradicts you.
You say they didn't know their need but Rom1 states they know that those who do (sin) are worthy of death. It states they knew their sin and they knew what continuing in it would mean and who would deal out that judgment against their sin. The fact they knew the consequences of their deeds shows they also knew their need for Him yet they rejected Him for their own pleasures. They to follow Him or they would be condemned but chose not to.

I don't see how you can maintain your view that they don't know their need for Him. They don't respond positively to the knowledge of their need for Him but that does not detract from the fact they know.

I need not prove anything.

This is the debate side not the discussion side - it is kinda the nature of the beast brother.

Maybe you do not understand a light switch. Google "how does a light switch work" and it may "cast light" on the subject.

We are not talking about a light switch but scripture and with IT says.

Just read the ones you posted.

I have (that is why I posted them) and thus far you have stayed away from them.

But let us be clear.
The new birth comes before understanding.
The new birth is not by the will of man.

No, scripture states faith comes before the new birth.
Of course the new birth is not something a man by himself just up and decides he will do or have. Man can not make himself born again by sheer determination. God makes man born again after he has believed what God has revealed to him. (John 1:12,13) Regeneration follows after faith.

I have posted my views on Matt 4. You can reject them if you want.

Mat 4 is speaking of the Nation of Israel. However, since you are looking at that verse from your Reformed position (the Church has replaced Israel) I can set that one aside based upon a difference of view point in relation to eschatoloty.

That still leaves the others to be addressed.

Life was the light of men.

Understand?

Nope. Because if your point is true you would have to be a universalist because the scripture states shortly there-after that Jesus lights every man that comes into the world.

FROM OP...


answer 1.....YES
Life was the light of men.

answer 2...NO
Life was the light of men

This illistrates my point in spades .. you still didn't even answer the OP.

It is not a yes or no question but and which is it (this or that) question on both.

 

[MB]

To understand being born again, you must understand the wind.

Study the wind and maybe you will understand.

When Christ was on His mission this would have been hard to do. Today caous is studied and they have come up with a solution to understand it. They can and do know where the wind comes from and where it will wind up. They know what drives it, and they know what stops it.
Being born again isn't as hard to figure out because the Bible gives us the solution. Regeneration is being born again. It is being made new. It is being Justified, sanctified, and glorified. It is being saved. What it isn't is something that happens to us to enable us to have faith and understand and believe before faith.
MB

 

[Allan]

I don't want this thread to get lost so I will bump it up.


So far I have not really had anyone engage the issue I posted in the OP.
Which is basically -what makes us new in Chrst and when does this happen?

Are we recreated into something that never has been or has God brought us back to what He originally intended of us - thus renewed us through justification and sanctification?

Some state we are justified and sanctified IN Christ being filled with Holy Spirit and made righteous before the excercising of faith. I have pointed out scripturally that not one of these things traspirewithout the excercising of said faith. Which do we believe - What Scripture explicitly states in order or mens opinions as to why the excercising of faith can not be first?

What constitutes a man being born-again/regenerate? I say that scripture is infatic that born-again/regenerate is another way of saying saved. So if one is born-again one is saved. Saved is a general meaning encompassing all things however being born-again or regenerate is specific to certain aspects which define what this new birth entail, which is speaking of their salvation.
1. Propitiation of Christ applied by faith
2. Justified by faith
3. Sanctified by faith
4. Righteous by faith
5. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit by faith

6. Thus due to all the above one is 'in Christ' or 'in life' and therefore having such life as is 'in Christ Jesus'.

 

[Allan]

Please understand that the below is not the OP but is the OP condensed into one sentence.

Which is basically -what makes us new in Chrst and when does this happen?

Please refer the OP concerning "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration" (kinda sounds like a sci-fi movie doesn't it )
:thumbs: cool