Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

[skypair]

So far I have not really had anyone engage the issue I posted in the OP.
Which is basically -what makes us new in Chrst and when does this happen?

If I may ... I think the key lies in this --- faith is "given." It IS a gift. Faith is also proof (Heb 11:1). What proof? Indwelling proof!

But where does proof come from? First from mental assent (in our spirits) -- then from repentance to the truth and application of the truth (to our souls). It is only then that God gives us the regenerating "earnest of our inheritance," the Holy Spirit, the "proof" that IS the faith of our salvation!

And this works continuously in us "from faith to faith." We hear spiritual things now -- we apply them -- we receive more faith in the truth! Until we have a "pile of gold" in our souls, a "heap of silver" in our spirits, and an "abundance of precious stones" (spiritual gifts) in our bodies (1Cor 3)!

skypair

 

[MB]

I don't want this thread to get lost so I will bump it up.


So far I have not really had anyone engage the issue I posted in the OP.
Which is basically -what makes us new in Chrst and when does this happen?

What makes us new is our complete surrender in humility. It seems some do not understand what a complete surrender is. It is giving up our rebellion. Our old life and our very self to be used of God any way He see's fit. In effect it is the turning over of our will's to Him.
We become new in Christ when, we put on the righteousness of Christ. Putting on Christ is allowing Him to have control. Allowing Him to have authority over our lives.Truthfully He is the only one who can live our lives righteously.
MB

 

[Allan]

If I may ... I think the key lies in this --- faith is "given." It IS a gift. Faith is also proof (Heb 11:1). What proof? Indwelling proof!

But where does proof come from? First from mental assent (in our spirits) -- then from repentance to the truth and application of the truth (to our souls). It is only then that God gives us the regenerating "earnest of our inheritance," the Holy Spirit, the "proof" that IS the faith of our salvation!

And this works continuously in us "from faith to faith." We hear spiritual things now -- we apply them -- we receive more faith in the truth! Until we have a "pile of gold" in our souls, a "heap of silver" in our spirits, and an "abundance of precious stones" (spiritual gifts) in our bodies (1Cor 3)!

skypair

Sorry Skypair, no one that I know of holds to or has held this view of your in which you say - we must believe God and then God turns that belief into faith. But even if there was some one who might have it is still not correct exegetically, and more precisely - gramatically.

Secondly, no one said that faith isn't a gift.

But thirdly and most importantly to this thread - it is about regeneration not faith. You keep trying to bring up faith even after being asked not to shortly after the OP.

This is speaking specifically to those who hold that regeneration includes justification, sanctification, righteousness, indwelling of the Holy SPirit, and being in Christ - BEFORE the excercising of faith because these things are the causation FOR excercising said faith.

I want to look at the scripture as to when IT states we are justified, sanctified, righteous, indwelt, and IN Christ. And since the scriptures state these ALL happen through faith it can not possibly be something that transpires prior to the excercising of ones faith. In that same line of thought I want to know what EXACTLY being born again entails in order to accurately come to a biblical conclusion on the matter.

 

[Allan]

What makes us new is our complete surrender in humility. It seems some do not understand what a complete surrender is. It is giving up our rebellion. Our old life and our very self to be used of God any way He see's fit. In effect it is the turning over of our will's to Him.
We become new in Christ when, we put on the righteousness of Christ. Putting on Christ is allowing Him to have control. Allowing Him to have authority over our lives.Truthfully He is the only one who can live our lives righteously.
MB

I understand what you are saying brother.

However the implication of 'no one' was directed more toward my Calvinistic brothers who make a particular claim but when I simply want to investigate more that what it does and why it supposedly does this (or has to happen a certain way), regeneration first then faith, but I get no real feed back as to "how" it is supposed to due this.

With regard to your answer above the questions are still needing to be more concisely answered from scripture. I'm not saying I disagree or agree with you but there needs to be a little more . Like:

What exactly is being made new? (this one I believe both Cals and non-Cals agree on).

What exactly does this entail? (this one I believe as well is another but it will be important regarding the last question)

When exactly does this happen?

 

[skypair]

Sorry Skypair, no one that I know of holds to or has held this view of your in which you say - we must believe God and then God turns that belief into faith.

EXACTLY!! YOU hold what I do!! All I'm saying is that the "mechanism" by which God turns belief to faith is regeneration! I would think the Calvies could see this, too, wouldn't you?

Secondly, no one said that faith isn't a gift.

Calvies do -- and so does 1Cor 12:9! So you are the one "out of step."

But thirdly and most importantly to this thread - it is about regeneration not faith. You keep trying to bring up faith even after being asked not to shortly after the OP.

That, friend, is because it is RELEVANT! You can't talk about regeneration without talking about FAITH!

And since the scriptures state these ALL happen through faith it can not possibly be something that transpires prior to the excercising of ones faith.

You are regressing to a "belief" definition of "faith," allan. Here is what "transpires:" belief -- repentance -- regeneration/faith/born again/justified/sanctified/righteous/indwelt/IN Christ SIMULTANEOUSLY!!

The thing is, you are trying to say "exercise faith" when we don't have any faith to exercise. We have "belief" -- "hope" that what we accepted as true is true. There is only one thing that "resonates" with our spirit before we repent and are regenerated -- that sin, righteousness, and judgment exist (John 16:8).

And beyond this explanation, you don't understand because you REFUSE to consider that we have both soul and spirit. Therefore, your paradigm cannot even contemplate a differentiation between belief and faith but you NEED to! Your paradigm is "ensnared" by the Calvie model and you will never "get out" if your don't change your premises.

skypair

 

[Allan]

EXACTLY!! YOU hold what I do!! All I'm saying is that the "mechanism" by which God turns belief to faith is regeneration! I would think the Calvies could see this, too, wouldn't you?

No, because no one but YOU claims such. No one else - just you.

Calvies do -- and so does 1Cor 12:9! So you are the one "out of step."

Your confused Sky. Calvinstist DO believe faith is a gift.

That, friend, is because it is RELEVANT! You can't talk about regeneration without talking about FAITH!

No it isn't. We are talking about regeneration not belief and faith. I opened the OP to talk about the Regeneration NOT faith. Keep it on topic. Faith is part of the discussion LATER, much later. I am not stating it 'isn't' part of the topic however it is not the part as of yet that needs to be discussed.

You are regressing to a "belief" definition of "faith," allan. Here is what "transpires:" belief -- repentance -- regeneration/faith/born again/justified/sanctified/righteous/indwelt/IN Christ SIMULTANEOUSLY!!

The thing is, you are trying to say "exercise faith" when we don't have any faith to exercise. We have "belief" -- "hope" that what we accepted as true is true. There is only one thing that "resonates" with our spirit before we repent and are regenerated -- that sin, righteousness, and judgment exist (John 16:8).

And beyond this explanation, you don't understand because you REFUSE to consider that we have both soul and spirit. Therefore, your paradigm cannot even contemplate a differentiation between belief and faith but you NEED to! Your paradigm is "ensnared" by the Calvie model and you will never "get out" if your don't change your premises.

skypair

Sky, I will ask you one last time to keep to the sudject of the OP. Beyond that I will begin to ask the moderators to delete your posts. You have your own particular view that is contrary to ALL sides biblical study. That is fine but in THIS thread I am asking you to answer the questions or comment on post directly relating to 'regeneration' and focus on ''what it entails'' and 'how' it does this if faith is not required. We both agree that faith is required, but that particular question is posed to those who hold the aspects of regeneration happen before the excercising of ones faith.

 

[Allan]

So these don't get lost I am reposting them:

Let us begin again:

You state - Life brings light. That unless one is born again they can not see light.
For this you state John 1 which states "In Him (Jesus) is life and the life was the ligtht of men".

Problems with this view contextually:
1. Just a few passage down it states that Jesus "lights every man that comes into the word".

The passage to which you keep returning speaks of Christ being the sourse of both natural life and spiritual life - no question.
However John qualifies what kind of light he will be addressing by speaking of this life giving light - which is a reference to spiritual enlightenment not natural intelligence.

Thus when John states Jesus "lights every man that comes into the world" it is not a reference to the natural but the spiritual since that is the context John is taking regarding John 1. - spiritual.

Your whole view breaks down in this verse because it would have every man that comes into the world being born again in your version, if (as you state) one only has light because one is alive.

This is in context with passage. Light does not equal life, but in order to have life one must have light.

 

[Allan]

Again so as not to get lost:

Here again are each of the verses given which plainly and contextually state those in darkness see the light which you have stated they can not do. (As well as my commentary on those passages)

"Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. "

Here is another one. The light is to those who ARE IN Darkness and in the 'shadow of death' (under condemnation but not yet condemned) to guide them to peace.

"Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "

He came as a light in the world (to unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness James. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

This is one of the most open and shut cases in scripture next to a few others.
God opening their eyes to turn them FROM darkness TO light. From Satan's power (which they are currently under and in - thus 'from' it) to God - SO THEY MAY RECIEVE.. forgiveness of sins (justification) and the inheritance (which includes the Holy Spirit) of those who are sanctifed (another aspect of the regeneration which can not be imparted apart from justification) BY FAITH. This does not state they are sanctified prior to the excercising of faith but AFTER.

This is one of the proverbial nails in your views coffin of being alive or regenerate in order TO believe. Scripture states absolutely - false.

"1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Notice here that God Called them out of darkness - the call is the gospel call and they were still in darkness when He called them out.

The are IN darkness when God calls to them to come out INTO the light. If one is in darkness then one is dead or seperated relationally from God.

 

[Allan]

This one is a responce to James post answering mine about life bring light and contextual problem with it (I reposted it 2 posts below or above this one - however you screen is set up).

Originally Posted by Jarthur001
Lets do this the easy way Allan.

This part was over your passage in Romans that you took us to when we were looking at John 1. I say that these people know about God, but never saw their need for God...which in my view is in all man because of sin nature. Therefore they rejected God, which is what sinful man does. Knowing God in Godly wisdom, is understanding your need for God in the 3 offices I posted before. You can agree or disagree. Just don't say I did not address your post.

And yet scripture decidedly contradicts you.
You say they didn't know their need but Rom1 states they know that those who do (sin) are worthy of death. It states they knew their sin and they knew what continuing in it would mean and who would deal out that judgment against their sin. The fact they knew the consequences of their deeds shows they also knew their need for Him yet they rejected Him for their own pleasures. They to follow Him or they would be condemned but chose not to.

I don't see how you can maintain your view that they don't know their need for Him. They don't respond positively to the knowledge of their need for Him but that does not detract from the fact they know.

I need not prove anything.

This is the debate side not the discussion side - it is kinda the nature of the beast brother.

Maybe you do not understand a light switch. Google "how does a light switch work" and it may "cast light" on the subject.

We are not talking about a light switch but scripture and with IT says.

Just read the ones you posted.

I have (that is why I posted them) and thus far you have stayed away from them.

But let us be clear.
The new birth comes before understanding.
The new birth is not by the will of man.

No, scripture states faith comes before the new birth.
Of course the new birth is not something a man by himself just up and decides he will do or have. Man can not make himself born again by sheer determination. God makes man born again after he has believed what God has revealed to him. (John 1:12,13) Regeneration follows after faith.

I have posted my views on Matt 4. You can reject them if you want.

Mat 4 is speaking of the Nation of Israel. However, since you are looking at that verse from your Reformed position (the Church has replaced Israel) I can set that one aside based upon a difference of view point in relation to eschatoloty.

That still leaves the others to be addressed.

Life was the light of men.
Understand?

Nope. Because if your point is true you would have to be a universalist because the scripture states shortly there-after that Jesus lights every man that comes into the world.

FROM OP...


answer 1.....YES
Life was the light of men.

answer 2...NO
Life was the light of men

This illistrates my point in spades .. you still didn't even answer the OP.

It is not a yes or no question but and which is it (this or that) question on both.

 

[Allan]

And lastly, what it comes back to (the OP). This is a posting to James specifically but those of Reformed beliefs generally:

Now back to my questions about regeneration:

1. You state that justification, sanctification, rightousness, indwelling, and being In Christ all come about 'by faith' - so you agree with me here.

2. You also agreed with me that all the above are the aspects of the regeneration.

3. But then you stated that they are not the new birth - which IS the regeneration.


Let us reveiw this 3rd part - which makes no sense to me.
What MAKES a person new (the old things are no longer, everything is now new) or what constitutes the new birth?

Does He give us something (a new spirit) like giving a child a new bike to replace the old one? OR Does He renew the old by cleansing it and bring it back to it's intended original state?

I believe scripture supports the later:
Scritpure states:

Quote:
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice they are only a new creation once they are IN Christ not before.

How do we (according to scripture come into Christ)? Answer - through faith.

But in your view, we are a new creation and in Christ while still in sin (thus needing a saviour and to repent).
It is through the cleansing of Christ's death (the propitiation) where by we are allowed entrance. Why? Because it justifies and sanctifies us, making us righteous, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit - thus placing us into Chrsit.

And all of these you agreed come about or are imparted by faith and not prior to it.

Without which being new or not we are still in our sins and thus dead, and if dead we are still in Darkness.

But when all the above are imparted (done to man by God) it is only then that one can biblically state they are a new creation - Old things are no more (sin and seperation from God - the old life) behold all things have become new.

 

[skypair]

Your confused Sky. Calvinstist DO believe faith is a gift.

I'm not confused, Allan. YOU are so "in the bag" with the Calvies! You can't beat your way out because you stay in the same confines as they are in!! YES, faith is a gift! Regeneration is, too!

Is "light" a gift?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

When Christ was on His mission this would have been hard to do. Today caous is studied and they have come up with a solution to understand it. They can and do know where the wind comes from and where it will wind up. They know what drives it, and they know what stops it.
Being born again isn't as hard to figure out because the Bible gives us the solution. Regeneration is being born again.

John 3...

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

 

[Allan]

Bump... bump... bump...

 

[Jarthur001]

Bump... bump... bump...

oh yes.....

Life comes before Life.

John 1