Original Sin??? #1

[OldRegular]

Well, you have to first be dead to be quickened. But Colossians 2:13 shows exactly what being quickened entails, you are quickened when all your sins and trespasses are forgiven. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive while you are still dead in all your sins. Therefore, you MUST believe and have all your sins and trespasses forgiven to be quickened or made spiritually alive.

That is not what Colossians 2:13 says at all Winman!

Colossians 2:13.And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Read what the passage says, not what you want it to say. They were dead in their sins when God quickened them, gave them spiritual life. The passage from Ephesians states the same thing. Read for a change. Take the advice you gave evangelist6589.

I repeat my earlier response to make it easy for you!

That is not what the Scripture says, Winman. It states they were quickened or made spiritually alive while they were still dead in their sins! The same is taught in the passage from Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:1-5 NKJV
1.And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The Apostle Paul is talking to believers. He is reminding them that WHILE, that is WHILE, they were dead in trespasses and sins God made them spiritually alive!

 

[Winman]

I am not going to keep explaining this to you, but no one can be quickened until their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe on Jesus.

You just don't get it, you are trying to believe a logical impossibility. The wages of sin is DEATH. The reason men are spiritually dead is because they have sinned. No one can be alive until all their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe on Jesus. Therefore faith MUST precede being quickened or regenerated.

The Reformed view is absolutely illogical and cannot possibly be true. If you do not understand that, then you do not have a logical mind.

You can repeat your view ten thousand times, and it will continue to be logically impossible.

 

[OldRegular]

I am not going to keep explaining this to you, but no one can be quickened until their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe on Jesus.

You are simply disputing what Scripture says, You simply refuse to let Scripture speak to you, rather you attempt to speak in place of Scripture.

You just don't get it, you are trying to believe a logical impossibility.

Rant on Winman! It is illogical for a professing believer to dispute what Scripture states unequivocally. Read and repent Winman:

Ephesians 2:1-5 NKJV
1.And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Read verses 4 & 5 and learn what God does. HE makes those who are dead in trespasses and sin alive! It is foolish to argue with Scripture.

The wages of sin is DEATH. The reason men are spiritually dead is because they have sinned.

Men sin because they are spiritually dead!

No one can be alive until all their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe on Jesus. Therefore faith MUST precede being quickened or regenerated.

The Scripture I presented above shows that you are wrong, believe it or not.

The Reformed view is absolutely illogical and cannot possibly be true. If you do not understand that, then you do not have a logical mind.

Are you willing to argue that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for sinners such as you and me is logical?

You can repeat your view ten thousand times, and it will continue to be logically impossible.

Big difference between you and me Winman. I am not presenting my view and I could care less about your logic. I am presenting Scripture. It is not my view you refuse to accept, it is Scripture which you refuse to accept. It is you who are presenting man's view and man's view is that God is unable to accomplish that which He chooses without man's help. Sinful man always has and always will refuse to let God be God. It is only through the new birth, an action solely by God the Holy Spirit [John 3:3ff], that man is made willing to yield to the Grace and Lordship of God.

 

[webdog]

Men sin because they are spiritually dead!

Then why do you sin?

Big difference between you and me Winman. I am not presenting my view and I could care less about your logic. I am presenting Scripture. It is not my view you refuse to accept, it is Scripture which you refuse to accept.

Do these sophomoric fallacies ever end? BTW...how much less could you care, OR?

 

[The Biblicist]

Then why do you sin?

Because we still have the fallen nature and "law of sin" operating in the flesh which is spiritually dead - Rom. 7:18-20

Do these sophomoric fallacies ever end? BTW...how much less could you care, OR?

Yes, that is the problem, to you and those of your ilk the scriptures are "sophmoric fallacies" and that is why you are spiritually blinded to the truth of God's Word.

 

[webdog]

Because we still have the fallen nature and "law of sin" operating in the flesh which is spiritually dead - Rom. 7:18-20

The flesh dies spiritually?

Yes, that is the problem, to you and those of your ilk the scriptures are "sophmoric fallacies" and that is why you are spiritually blinded to the truth of God's Word.

Thank you for yet again adding weight to my point. You never dissapoint

I haven't been on here in a while, but I see you are back to the vitriolic Biblicist questioning the salvation of others in the normal veiled manner.

 

[The Biblicist]

The flesh dies spiritually?

The literal "flesh" dies PHYSICALLY due to the indwelling "law of sin" operating in it. As such the law of sin operating in this physical sphere is called "the flesh" metaphorically to represent that aspect of our human nature that is still under sin, condemned to death by sin and still in need of deliverance from siin "O wretched man that I am, Who shall DELIVER me from this BODY OF DEATH."

Thank you for yet again adding weight to my point. You never dissapoint

Your welcome as your "point" is rebellion against God's Word and I will never "dissapoint" in pointing that out.

 

[webdog]

The literal "flesh" dies PHYSICALLY due to the indwelling "law of sin" operating in it. As such the law of sin operating in this physical sphere is called "the flesh" metaphorically to represent that aspect of our human nature that is still under sin, condemned to death by sin and still in need of deliverance from siin "O wretched man that I am, Who shall DELIVER me from this BODY OF DEATH."

So now the flesh doesn't die spiritually, and the cursed flesh and all of creation is merely a metaphor. Wow.

Your welcome as your "point" is rebellion against God's Word and I will never "dissapoint" in pointing that out.

Thank you yet again for the Christ like addition to my original point.

Let me help you out here "Dr.". I disagree with OR and you. I don't disagree with Scripture nor am I in rebellion against Gods Word, and even if I were, it is entirely decreed in your system. Got it? Your problem then is with God, not me. Simple, huh?

 

[OldRegular]

The literal "flesh" dies PHYSICALLY due to the indwelling "law of sin" operating in it. As such the law of sin operating in this physical sphere is called "the flesh" metaphorically to represent that aspect of our human nature that is still under sin, condemned to death by sin and still in need of deliverance from siin "O wretched man that I am, Who shall DELIVER me from this BODY OF DEATH."

I believe this is the point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 15:42ff.

 

[The Biblicist]

So now the flesh doesn't die spiritually, and the cursed flesh and all of creation is merely a metaphor. Wow.

Either your reading comprehension is terrible or you are intentionally mispresenting what I said. I never said that the physical body died spiritually but rather physically dies due to a spiritual condition operating within it called "the law of sin."

I never said the physical flesh is a metaphor or that "all creation is merely a metaphor." This is all your imagination and false accusations.

What I said is that the "law of sin" (which is spiritual) operates through the flesh or physical nature with its natural cravings and together they are referred to by Paul in the metaphorical expression of "the flesh." The metaphor is not the PHYSICAL body nor is the physical body a metaphor but the metaphor "the flesh" describes "the law of sin" which is spritual operating through the physical body and its natural cravings.

Thank you yet again for the Christ like addition to my original point.

You guys are a real riot. You begin the insulting contest but when you get exactly what you dish out then you start talking about "Christ like". We call such people - Hypocrits. If you can't take it, don't start it, and if you want to call others UnChrist like who do it, then don't be guilty of starting it.

Let me help you out here "Dr.". I disagree with OR and you. I don't disagree with Scripture nor am I in rebellion against Gods Word, and even if I were, it is entirely decreed in your system. Got it? Your problem then is with God, not me. Simple, huh?

Yes, it is you, and you are as spiritually blind as a bat.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe this is the point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 15:42ff.

It is like casting pearls before swine, it does not matter how clear or how Biblically correct your expression is, one must first have eyes to see and they simply do not have such eyes.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe this is the point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 15:42ff.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The principle of "corruption" or "the law of sin" is still operating in the physical bodies of believers and that is precisely why it continues in "corruption" until physical death.

In the resurrection or rapture the "law of sin" will be removed and the new body will be incorruptible.

This means the physical body under the "law of sin" is perishing day by day and that is why Paul calls it "this body of death" due to the "law of sin" operating now in it.

This marriage between the spiritual "law of sin" and the physical body is called "the flesh" when used in contrast to "the spirit." When used in this kind of context of contrast it is a metaphor to express the physical body and its cravings under the rule of the "law of sin."

 

[The Biblicist]

I haven't been on here in a while, but I see you are back to the vitriolic Biblicist questioning the salvation of others in the normal veiled manner.

Nice try! But saved people can be blind to truths and simply pointing out that blindness does not infer they are lost.

However, I see what you are trying to do. Back to your old ways of trying to invent accusations in order to get me banned. That is simply ugly!

 

[The Biblicist]

Infants still in the womb, incapable of violating conscience or any Law of God as independent individuals are under death. There is no other rational or Biblical explanation for dying infants than their union with Adam in his sin and that is precisely what Romans 5:12-14 spells out.

All humans as soon as they are able to express their moral nature after coming out of the womb express the epitomy of SELF-ishness demonstrating a heart that is self-centered and at enmity with all authority but themselves - sinners by nature.

 

[OldRegular]

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The principle of "corruption" or "the law of sin" is still operating in the physical bodies of believers and that is precisely why it continues in "corruption" until physical death.

In the resurrection or rapture the "law of sin" will be removed and the new body will be incorruptible.

This means the physical body under the "law of sin" is perishing day by day and that is why Paul calls it "this body of death" due to the "law of sin" operating now in it.

This marriage between the spiritual "law of sin" and the physical body is called "the flesh" when used in contrast to "the spirit." When used in this kind of context of contrast it is a metaphor to express the physical body and its cravings under the rule of the "law of sin."

Well said and essentially expressing my understanding. You quoted earlier a passage from Romans 7 where I believe Paul is talking about the struggle between the "flesh" and the spirit of the believer, a struggle that ends in the death of the body.

I believe the fact that the continued existence of "the flesh" in the believer is the reason that they must experience physical death. Paul also indicates in 1 Corinthians 15 that at the return of Jesus Christ the physical bodies of those believers living will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well said and essentially expressing my understanding. You quoted earlier a passage from Romans 7 where I believe Paul is talking about the struggle between the "flesh" and the spirit of the believer, a struggle that ends in the death of the body.

I believe the fact that the continued existence of "the flesh" in the believer is the reason that they must experience physical death. Paul also indicates in 1 Corinthians 15 that at the return of Jesus Christ the physical bodies of those believers living will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

:thumbs::thumbs::godisgood:

 

[Yeshua1]

It is like casting pearls before swine, it does not matter how clear or how Biblically correct your expression is, one must first have eyes to see and they simply do not have such eyes.

paul makes his great pronouncement of how God fixed the extent of the fall towards sinners in Romans, and his point is that JUST AS all physically/spiritually died in Adam, as he was head of those born natural means, Jesus is head of ALL those born again spiritually!

IFwe deny that clear intent of paul, the Gospel and salvation back to good works/try harder/and free will again!

 

[webdog]

Either your reading comprehension is terrible or you are intentionally mispresenting what I said. I never said that the physical body died spiritually but rather physically dies due to a spiritual condition operating within it called "the law of sin."

I never said the physical flesh is a metaphor or that "all creation is merely a metaphor." This is all your imagination and false accusations.

What I said is that the "law of sin" (which is spiritual) operates through the flesh or physical nature with its natural cravings and together they are referred to by Paul in the metaphorical expression of "the flesh." The metaphor is not the PHYSICAL body nor is the physical body a metaphor but the metaphor "the flesh" describes "the law of sin" which is spritual operating through the physical body and its natural cravings.

You said the flesh dies spiritually. You can try to backtrack now, but you cannot deny you said it.

You guys are a real riot. You begin the insulting contest but when you get exactly what you dish out then you start talking about "Christ like". We call such people - Hypocrits. If you can't take it, don't start it, and if you want to call others UnChrist like who do it, then don't be guilty of starting it.

My initial post on this thread was not insulting. The insults blew in with you...as is the norm

Yes, it is you, and you are as spiritually blind as a bat.

Scripture calls this being lost. You can try to be cute by playing the martyr and your semantical games, but the Bible uses the phrase to refer to the lost...against board rules. I don't have to do anything to get you banned, your foot in mouth syndrome is sufficient.

 

[The Biblicist]

You said the flesh dies spiritually. You can try to backtrack now, but you cannot deny you said it.

No, I did not say that. That is your perverted interpetation of my words. Here is what I said:

Because we still have the fallen nature and "law of sin" operating in the flesh which is spiritually dead - Rom. 7:18-20 - The Biblicist

When you questioned my use and meaning of the words "the flesh" in this statement, I responded it is a metaphorical expression of "the fallen nature" which includes the "law of sin" as the principle of corruption at work in the physical body and the use of the physical cravings. Hence, "the flesh" and my words in the same statement "the fallen nature" or equivilent and anyone reading it can easily see that.

My initial post on this thread was not insulting. The insults blew in with you...as is the norm

Here are your words of ridicule I responded to:

Do these sophomoric fallacies ever end? - Webdog

Scripture calls this being lost. You can try to be cute by playing the martyr and your semantical games, but the Bible uses the phrase to refer to the lost...against board rules. I don't have to do anything to get you banned, your foot in mouth syndrome is sufficient.

We have your number and we know what you are trying to do. Those words may equally apply to lost and saved. Saved persons can be spirituallly blinded to certain truths. For example, Peter rebuked Christ and refused to believe direct revelation from Christ that he was going to the cross. Christ responded "get behind me Satan." According to your logic such language would demand that Christ regarded Peter to be lost.

Saved people are blinded to some truths and later are given eyes to accept the very truths they opposed and rejected. If that is not true of your own experience then you are all knowing and there is no room for you to be corrected or taught. Please tell us that you have always had eyes to see truth and never rejected, never had to be corrected, never opposed some things you now embrace.

 

[webdog]

No, I did not say that. That is your perverted interpetation of my words. Here is what I said:

Because we still have the fallen nature and "law of sin" operating in the flesh which is spiritually dead - Rom. 7:18-20 - The Biblicist

When you questioned my use and meaning of the words "the flesh" in this statement, I responded it is a metaphorical expression of "the fallen nature" which includes the "law of sin" as the principle of corruption at work in the physical body and the use of the physical cravings. Hence, "the flesh" and my words in the same statement "the fallen nature" or equivilent and anyone reading it can easily see that.

Putting it in red doesn't change the sentence structure. It still says it. Maybe you didn't mean it, as your extrabiblical explanation tries to show, but it says it regardless.

Here are your words of ridicule I responded to:

Do these sophomoric fallacies ever end? - Webdog

No insult or ridicule there. When you start the "if you disagree with me you disagree with God" and "you don't agree with me you reject biblical truth" garbage, you employ a sophomoric fallacy. Truth, not insult.

We have your number and we know what you are trying to do. Those words may equally apply to lost and saved. Saved persons can be spirituallly blinded to certain truths. For example, Peter rebuked Christ and refused to believe direct revelation from Christ that he was going to the cross. Christ responded "get behind me Satan." According to your logic such language would demand that Christ regarded Peter to be lost.

Who are "we"? Like I said already, the Bible uses the phrase to refer to the lost. Explain it away until you are blue in the face, it doesn't phase me. I'll take the biblical definition. At any rate, due to your deterministic soteriology, you need to take it up with God regardless as it has been decreed for me to believe as I do.

Saved people are blinded to some truths and later are given eyes to accept the very truths they opposed and rejected. If that is not true of your own experience then you are all knowing and there is no room for you to be corrected or taught. Please tell us that you have always had eyes to see truth and never rejected, never had to be corrected, never opposed some things you now embrace.