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Original Sin and its imputation on the human race

Ruiz

New Member
I don't label myself like that, I simply believe what I think the scriptures say. I believe we are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt us to sin, but no one is a sinner until they knowingly and willfully sins against God. We are not judged sinners because of our nature, as Jesus came in the flesh, had the same nature as the seed of Abraham, was made like his brethren in all things, was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. So, it is not being born flesh with a nature that tempts us that makes us sinners, but when we actually commit sin.

I honestly have never studied the theologians of the past until I came to BB. Since then I have spent FAR more time reading Reformed theologians than others, but honestly, the more I study Reformed theology, the more I believe it is gross error. I believe Augustine introduced more error than any other, Calvin simply followed in his footsteps. I think Augustine's error interpreting Rom 5:12 the most serious error ever introduced in the church and has led to many other serious errors such as the Immaculate Conception and especially Baptismal Regeneration which many thousands lost their lives over. I believe Luther's and Calvin's false doctrines came straight from Augustine and the RCC.

Romans 5, as I have shown in the above, is so clear that we individually sin in Adam, that it really is difficult to deny.

You come across as holding Pelagianism. That has been more condemned in Christian history than any other error, more than even the Trinity. This is not merely just a Reformed condemnation, but a non-reformed condemnation. As noted, you must believe in the chiasmus: sin, death, death, sin. If we died in Adam, we are dead and thus sin. If you believe we sin and therefore we are dead, that goes entirely against the chiasmus.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Romans 5, as I have shown in the above, is so clear that we individually sin in Adam, that it really is difficult to deny.

You come across as holding Pelagianism. That has been more condemned in Christian history than any other error, more than even the Trinity. This is not merely just a Reformed condemnation, but a non-reformed condemnation. As noted, you must believe in the chiasmus: sin, death, death, sin. If we died in Adam, we are dead and thus sin. If you believe we sin and therefore we are dead, that goes entirely against the chiasmus.

Ruiz,

I don't think Winman has ever proposed to be pelagian, I NEVER remember him ever suggesting that man was "good or righteous" enough to work out his salvation without divine assistance. Do you honestly think that this is what he proposes simply because his position on original sin is different?

Pelagianism
the heretical doctrines of Pelagius, 4th-century British monk, especially a denial of original sin and man’s fallen spiritual nature, and an assertion that man’s goodness was sufficiënt for him to work out his salva-tion without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
 

Winman

Active Member
Greektim, vs. 19 does not help you, if by Adam's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You still have the same problem, if this verse is saying that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to many, then because of Christ righteousness shall be unconditionally be imputed to many. And if the first "many" means 100% of men, then the second "many" also means 100% of men. You cannot change the definition of the same exact word used in the same exact verse and context. This is where Universalists find their support in scripture, if vs. 12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the following verses necessarily teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to all men.

I think the term "made sinners" is misunderstood. If I said that by Karl Marx many were made communists you would understand. Did Marx's personal beliefs impute to those who read him? NO. But through his influence and by believeing his teachings many became communists. It would the same if I said many were made evolutionists by Charles Darwin. I believe this is how Paul is speaking, in fact it must be, because we know righteousness is not unconditionally imputed, a man must believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous.
 

Ruiz

New Member
Ruiz,

I don't think Winman has ever proposed to be pelagian, I NEVER remember him ever suggesting that man was "good or righteous" enough to work out his salvation without divine assistance. Do you honestly think that this is what he proposes simply because his position on original sin is different?

Pelagianism
the heretical doctrines of Pelagius, 4th-century British monk, especially a denial of original sin and man’s fallen spiritual nature, and an assertion that man’s goodness was sufficiënt for him to work out his salva-tion without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

The last part in this definition is even debatable. When Augustine attacked his views, he attacked the views of the denial of original sin and our inherent goodness. Pelagian said we were sick in sin thus may need help, but we were not dead in our sins. The assistance thing, I will see if I can find the section Augustine addresses Pelagian on this issue. However, I think the definition is an over simplification.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
The last part in this definition is even debatable. When Augustine attacked his views, he attacked the views of the denial of original sin and our inherent goodness. Pelagian said we were sick in sin thus may need help, but we were not dead in our sins. The assistance thing, I will see if I can find the section Augustine addresses Pelagian on this issue. However, I think the definition is an over simplification.

Thanks, but I was focusing more on the idea of PEL being that man is inherently good enough to obtain salvation without divine assistance, which I do not think WINMAN has ever proposed.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Greektim, vs. 19 does not help you, if by Adam's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You still have the same problem, if this verse is saying that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to many, then because of Christ righteousness shall be unconditionally be imputed to many. And if the first "many" means 100% of men, then the second "many" also means 100% of men. You cannot change the definition of the same exact word used in the same exact verse and context. This is where Universalists find their support in scripture, if vs. 12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the following verses necessarily teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to all men.

I think the term "made sinners" is misunderstood. If I said that by Karl Marx many were made communists you would understand. Did Marx's personal beliefs impute to those who read him? NO. But through his influence and by believeing his teachings many became communists. It would the same if I said many were made evolutionists by Charles Darwin. I believe this is how Paul is speaking, in fact it must be, because we know righteousness is not unconditionally imputed, a man must believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous.


Winman, I agree that this is a "sticky" point. "Many" (all) were made sinners by Adam, then "many" (but not all?) were made righteous by the obedience of one? By "sticky" I mean if all were made sinners, is in entirely out of the question then to think that not all were made righteous by the "ONE"?

Before anyone "flames" I am not attempting to propose universalism, simply trying to indicate that this is a reasonable question.
 

Ruiz

New Member
Thanks, but I was focusing more on the idea of PEL being that man is inherently good enough to obtain salvation without divine assistance, which I do not think WINMAN has ever proposed.

Pelagian didn't say that you could obtain salvation in reality, but that all man will sin and thus you could not obtain it through the righteousness you have. I think the argument Augustine made against Pelagius said that it is legitimate to conclude that Pelagianism would lead one to believe that one can go without sinning and thus be saved. I do not think that was the argument of Pelagian. Yet, I could be wrong. Something to look up.

In this discussion, though, the issue is the nature of sin. In theological circles, to argue on the sin issue it usually is related to the understanding of original sin (that is what I was taught in every theology class I ever took). Thus, I think it is right for a theologian to call a denial of original sin, Pelagianism.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Pelagian didn't say that you could obtain salvation in reality, but that all man will sin and thus you could not obtain it through the righteousness you have. I think the argument Augustine made against Pelagius said that it is legitimate to conclude that Pelagianism would lead one to believe that one can go without sinning and thus be saved. I do not think that was the argument of Pelagian. Yet, I could be wrong. Something to look up.

In this discussion, though, the issue is the nature of sin. In theological circles, to argue on the sin issue it usually is related to the understanding of original sin (that is what I was taught in every theology class I ever took). Thus, I think it is right for a theologian to call a denial of original sin, Pelagianism.

Perhaps you are correct, I was not a theology major. I don't have the richness of a theological education. I have always thought Pel to be a "go it on your own" theological idea. Man is able to seek/reach/find God without any notion of any type of God's grace.
 

Winman

Active Member
I am not a Pelagian, I have said dozens of times that it would be impossible for any man to believe on Christ without the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the revelation of Jesus Christ through God's word.

And while I do not accept Total Inability, I certainly believe all men are sinners and cannot possibly earn salvation through their own merit.

I do believe all men have the ability to believe, but no man can believe what he has not heard and does not know. This is why Paul asked how can a man believe in whom he has not heard? (Rom 10:14) Why didn't Paul ask how can a man believe if he has not been regenerated? Paul did not ask this, because it is not necessary to be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

No, Paul said faith comes by HEARING, something we can all do, and hearing by the word of God. If God did not provide his word, it would be impossible for any man to believe in Jesus.

How did you believe? Were you walking down the street completely ignorant of the scriptures and was suddenly zapped with this knowledge? Or did you hear the word of God and believe? I know how I believed, when I heard the word of God.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Winman said:
Greektim, vs. 19 does not help you, if by Adam's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Here the distinction between all is made. Notice again that to help bear out the contrast, the same verbiage is used. But that is not even the point here.

You still have the same problem, if this verse is saying that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to many, then because of Christ righteousness shall be unconditionally be imputed to many. And if the first "many" means 100% of men, then the second "many" also means 100% of men. You cannot change the definition of the same exact word used in the same exact verse and context. This is where Universalists find their support in scripture, if vs. 12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the following verses necessarily teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to all men.
You keep relying on this as your only argument, but the fact is that Paul is using completely acceptable language to communicate a glaring contrast by making the things contrasted match in their words. So you are missing the point. The emphasis is not so much on "if 'many' or 'all' means all in the first case then it must mean it in the second." The point is to contrast the sin of Adam and the act of righteousness of Jesus. The best way to do this is to make the first proposition match the second proposition.

BTW... you still avoided the point I made above. What is the purpose of a repeated mention of Adam's sin if not to point out that it is the root cause to all of humanity's sin and death? The focus is on one act of sin and the resultant death that mankind experience as its effect.

I think the term "made sinners" is misunderstood. If I said that by Karl Marx many were made communists you would understand. Did Marx's personal beliefs impute to those who read him? NO. But through his influence and by believeing his teachings many became communists. It would the same if I said many were made evolutionists by Charles Darwin. I believe this is how Paul is speaking, in fact it must be, because we know righteousness is not unconditionally imputed, a man must believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous.
At least you are starting to address my points. I emphasize "starting" b/c you still have not mentioned the lexical argument I made. The translation "made sinners" is likely misleading. The semantic domain of καθιστημι is wide. Yet Paul only used the word 1 other time (Titus 1:5). Clearly, he opted for the "appoint" use which in the context of Rom. 5 implies imputation (along w/ what is said in v. 13). So Paul could not have been clearer. Through ADam's sin, humanity was appointed a sinner. And to continue this concept, we are no more "made" righteous through Jesus in the sense of perfect practical righteousness than we are "made" sinners through Adam's sin. In other words, we are appointed righteous through Jesus just as we were appointed as sinners. Or to put it better than I can, Hodge said of this word in v. 19:
Charles Hodge in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans said:
"καθιστημι never, in the New Testament, means to make, in the sense of effecting, or causing a person or thing, to be in its character or nature other than it was before... [it] does not mean to make one sinful, but to set him down as such, to regard or appoint him to be of that class. Thus, when Christ is said to have been ‘constituted the Son of God,’ he was not made Son, but declared to be such.”
 

Winman

Active Member
Winman, I agree that this is a "sticky" point. "Many" (all) were made sinners by Adam, then "many" (but not all?) were made righteous by the obedience of one? By "sticky" I mean if all were made sinners, is in entirely out of the question then to think that not all were made righteous by the "ONE"?

Before anyone "flames" I am not attempting to propose universalism, simply trying to indicate that this is a reasonable question.

It is only sticky if it refutes your doctrine. You can not redefine the same exact words used in the same verse and context. If "many" were "made" sinners by Adam, then "many" shall be "made" righteous by Christ.

If Rom 5:12-21 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to us, then these same verses would also teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to us. To argue otherwise is inconsistent.

However, if we understand vs. 12 to teach we are sinners conditionally because all have sinned personally, then we can see that righteousness is also conditionally imputed to us when we personally believe on Christ. There is no inconsistency here.
 

Romans7man

New Member
born sinners?

.
When do we get seperated than from God? Are we born as being "clean" and ONLY develop the sinful nature once we freely choose to sin against God?

wasn't Adam created perfect and sinless, and chose to sin, while we are born into it?

We are born separated from God. If I am understanding you correctly, you are assuming that separation automatically makes us sinners. It is that being born separated from God and not being born filled with the Holy Spirit that makes it imposable for us to overcome temptation(s) on a continual basis. In other words we are born in a body of flesh without the fellowship of God and our spirits are out of proportion to the flesh, world, and Satan. God created man to be in fellowship with Him and His Spirit to help our spirit overcome. It is because of the weakness of the flesh that we fail. Jesus told His disciples, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Paul said the law is weak through the flesh.
Paul gives us an account of a lost man in Romans 7. He tells us he willed to do the right thing, but something was stronger than his will, sin in the flesh.

Adam was created sinless, I don't know of anyone that would argue with that, but nevertheless he sinned. Now stop and think about that. If Adam sinned without a sinful nature and only had one thing he had to not do, how much more are we likely to sin being born outside of the fellowship of God, in a world already filled with sin, and many "don'ts"? Also, if we are born with a nature to sin, nothing would be temptation, it would be our nature to sin.
We are guilty of sin because we are doing things we know we are not to do, but with a sinful nature we would not know to not do those things we should not do.
We are born in sin, but not born sinners. In other words being born in sin is not being born a sinner, being born in sin is the environment. There is nowhere in scripture that tells us we are born sinners. Now I understand there are many verses taken out of context to show we are born sinners, but it is just that, out of context. We are guilty of sin because we have sinned. We are dead in sin because of our sinfulness.
There is no mention of any sinful nature in scripture, that is something made up. In fact I would say it is heresy and may even verge on blasphemy. The term sinful nature comes from the same terms used for flesh. That would be the same flesh Christ came in. Would we say Christ came in sinful nature or that He had a sinful nature? of course not. But Christ came in the flesh to overcome the flesh, the same flesh that is tempted, He was tempted in all points as we are. It was His flesh that was crucified, buried, and raised.
Now we know He was tempted in all points as we are, but do we say His flesh was some kind of sinful nature? Christ's sinful nature was crucified? When you put just a little logic to it it starts sounding ridiculous to say the least.
 

Winman

Active Member
Excellent post Romans7man, I especially like your argument that if we have a sin nature there would be no such thing as temptation, as it would be our nature to sin. That makes perfect sense.
 

Cypress

New Member
Excellent post Romans7man, I especially like your argument that if we have a sin nature there would be no such thing as temptation, as it would be our nature to sin. That makes perfect sense.

And a hearty second from this corner:love2::thumbs:
 

Romans7man

New Member
Excellent post Romans7man, I especially like your argument that if we have a sin nature there would be no such thing as temptation, as it would be our nature to sin. That makes perfect sense.

1 Corinthians 10:13; There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man..............
This tells me all are tempted, saved and lost, but it is for the believer that God has made a way for escape. The unbeliever is pretty much on his own. Not that God wants it that way, but as long as the unbeliever thinks he has it all under control and does not need God's help, God will grant him his wish and leave him be. Hopefully when the unbeliever hears the gospel they to will get saved and yield to God's way of escape from sin.
 

Romans7man

New Member
I "kinda" like it too. :)
Hello quantumfaith and cypress,
I'm the new kid on the block, so I'm still trying to figure everyone out here. I have read many post and see I have like minded kindred spirits here. I read more than post, but I do have a hard time passing up something on Romans. Romans is what I have studied most and hope someone starts a thread on Romans 7, as I may have something to offer. If I ever get around to it I would like to write a book on chapter 7 and it's interpretation or misinterpretation, however you want to see it. Much has been overlooked on the subject.
Anyhow, I know we are all going to disagree on some of the finer points, but that is almost a given. It's those canyons of disagreements that tend to jump out most, Calvinism/Arminianism. Hopefully those gaps will not be to far that we still can fellowship one with another, even when we agree to disagree.
I don't consider myself Calvinist or Arminian, but I know some will try and put me in one group or another.
 

seekingthetruth

New Member
Well said. Some believe that it is unjust to impute Adam's sin to us. Yet, they have no problem with God imputing Christ's righteousness to us. Adam's sin was imputed to us as Romans 5 says. As well, if we are a Christian then Christ's righteousness has been imputed as well.

Adam was just a man. Christ is God.

John
 

seekingthetruth

New Member
I think you are missing the point.

The idea of "death" is one that you are first dividing. Death in this case is more then encompassing physical death. From the Greek paper I wrote on this text, I summarized (I do not think the Greek words will come over in this response, but I can hope):
_______________
The second word that comes into discussion is “death”. Like “world”, this word has a variety of meanings to include: physical death (Luke 2:26), spiritual death (John 8:51), but also being in imminent danger of death (2 Corinthians 4:11-12). The obvious reference, though, of Romans 5 is to Genesis 2:17 and 3:19 because of the use of Adam and the idea of sin entering this world.
Wayne Grudem relates what is meant by the word “death” in Genesis, “death, most fully understood to mean death in an extensive sense, physical, spiritual, and eternal death and separation from God.” Dr. Grudem is correct. The death mentioned encompasses the physical; man decay. Death encompasses the spiritual; man is dead in sin. Death encompasses the eternal death/separation from God; man was banished from his original state in the garden and sentenced to the second death, hell.
The verse further clarifies death, according to Moo, “Paul’s concern in this verse, and throughout the passage, is not with “original sin” but with “original death.”” The sin of Adam resulted in death (5:12a) but, after death took hold of each individual man, death will result in man’s sin. Cranfield says, “the result is a chiasmus—sin, death, death, sin.” To put it more plainly, Adam sinned therefore all have died but because all have died, all sin. The first part of verse 12 deals mainly with the entrance of sin into the world. The second part of this verse deals with the penetration of sin to all mankind.
_______________

This text shows that we are dealing with eternal death that spread from Adam to all people. I think the full view of death demands that Adam's sin did radically infect man throughout. The chiasmus is rather clear in the Greek text and I believe it is irrefutable. Thus, death itself is the imputation of the sin to all mankind, which is also the imputation of death to all mankind.

Let me quote again from my paper:

__________



__________
Which brings this paper to the nature of sin. Is the sin mentioned here the actual sins of men or representative? The answer in verse 12, “in that all sinned” (Greek, “ἐφ' ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον”, eph w pantex hamarton).
While others will reference Romans 3:23 and 6:23 and believe this sin is merely the actual act of sin by all people, Paul notes that not everyone sins after the likeness of Adam’s sin (v. 14) thus this is brought into doubt. As a result, this could not be merely the actual likeness of sin of Adam.
Many commentators believe that death is caused by each person’s own individual sinning. This interpretation, as already discovered, is not accurate. The context, though, helps to clarify the context in v. 18a. Some commentators believe the sin, in this section, is a collective sin (Augustine) and not an individual sin. Hendrickson objects to the collective sin idea of Augustine when he says, “Why should ‘all sinned’ mean one thing (actual, personal sins) in Romans 3:23, but something else in 5:12?” . Douglas Moo even points out that the aorist tense of “sin” is almost always used of actual sin .
Yet, Dr. Moo does go further to explain the representative nature of sin from the Old Testament. Dr Moo states, “This notion, rooted in the OT, held that actions of certain individuals could have a “representative” character, being regarded as, in some sense, the actions of many other individuals at the same time.” Just as Jesus’ righteousness is imputed so is Adam’s sin imputed. This is what Paul has in mind, showing that death leads to sin and the imputation of Adam’s original sin is imputed to all people. The context seems to demand a representative nature of sin, which is imputed to all men without distinction.
______________

Moo makes a compelling case that while sin in the aorist tense does have an individual nature, he notes that v. 18 demands a representative nature. I think it is clear that Adam's sin is as though we personally and individually sinned in Adam. He was not just our representative, but we actually sinned in Adam.

You mentioned that we must believe by faith, but you mistake the nature of grace mentioned in this verse. Let me quote from my paper again:

__________

The emphasis on grace is that it is a free gift. John Murray makes the point, “The construction here would indicate that the grace is that exercised by Jesus Christ and not, in this case, the grace of God mediated or issuing to us through Jesus Christ” (emphasis by John Murray) . In other words, here the emphasis is on Jesus’ exercising grace to those who are dead in sin.
There is a difference in the use of the word grace as seen in the two words used: δωρεὰ (dwrea) and χάρις (charis). Some have suggested a distinction between the two. They suggest δωρεὰ as a general grace to all (also known as common grace) and χάρις is grace to only believers. Yet, this is a stretch. The former is likely to signify motives or manners while the latter is the specific manifestation of grace. Thus, by verse 16, one sees in this context that sin of one person required another person to die, not for that one sin only, but for all the sins of all the Christians of all Centuries.
When coming to verse 17, the text is similar in construction to that of verse 15, which also includes a conditional clause. The text explains the reign of death was brought about through one trespass and the reign of life through the one, Jesus Christ . The phrase “much more” comes to bear her weight in this verse as well. Grace, then, is seen as being greater than all the sin including the sin of Adam. The verse seeks to point us to the generosity (δωρεὰ) and provision (χάρις) from God.
Morris notes, “With grace Paul links the gift of righteousness.” This phrase is forensic, the person stands as righteous by a means of earning such a position, not by their own merit but by Jesus’.

_____________________

In other words, you are placing faith upon the person, but grace here is what proceeds from Jesus to his elect people.

You mentioned the universality of the condemnation and I spent so little time on this because there was little debate on this issue except by universalists. Here is the brief statement I did make

___________

This brings the text to a point where the phrase “all men” as used of both death and salvation. Is the phrase “all men” when referring to sinners the same as “all men” when referring to those who were made alive? Some modern scholars do take this verse to argue for universalism. This, though, is unnecessary because clear teaching elsewhere demands that the Bible student believe not all will be saved. Even in this text (v. 17), Paul is clear that here is a limitation of salvation to those who are His own. What is the proper translation? Mark Dever points out, “The curse and contagion of sin spread to all nations, so the good news of salvation by faith in Christ Jesus is meant for all nations as well.”
___________________
Thus, the “all man” was addressed a couple of times in the paper, with the conclusion and emphasis is not upon the individual nature of man but upon the corporate or national nature. This is so readily agreed upon by a myriad of scholars that I felt it was a waste of time to deal with the issue in Romans. Unless you embrace universalism, you must embrace this idea. Thus, sin spread to all mankind and grace spread to all mankind. While “all have sinned” because of Adam, and previous sections of Romans deals with each individual person, this is more of a corporate declaration.

Winman, I couod have told you that this would become a debate about intellect, not the Bible.

Oh well, some people are just too smart

John
 
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