Original Sin and its imputation on the human race

[Winman]

continued...

The woman in Luke 15 originally had 10 coins, lost one, but searched and recovered it.

The prodigal son originated with his father, left home and was joined to a citizen of a far country. He repented and came home. Twice Jesus said the boy was ALIVE AGAIN. How can you be alive again if you were born dead, separated from God?

See also 1 Pet 2:25

So, I differ slightly from you here.

 

[Romans7man]

You and I are very close on what we believe. I also believe we all go through an eye opening experience, I would call this the age of accountability.

Where we might differ slightly is that I do not believe we are born separated from God, but become separated when we knowingly and willfully sin. For instance, the 3 parables in Luke 15 all show a person originating with God, then being lost, then being recovered. The shepherd has 100 sheep but lost one, he searched and recovered it. continued...

I don't know that I would disagree with that. When I say we are separated from God I am going all the way back to the garden whereas we will be face to face with Him again when we get to heaven. Until then we walk by faith and not by sight. So when I say we are separated from Him its only that we are not walking in the cool of the day with Him. Now after we sin it would be different.

 

[webdog]

A) that supposition was never proven

B) I didn't rely on Augstine but Scripture.

C) You bingo'ed pontification. Argue the points of exegesis.

Not understanding your post, can you clarify?

 

[Winman]

I don't know that I would disagree with that. When I say we are separated from God I am going all the way back to the garden whereas we will be face to face with Him again when we get to heaven. Until then we walk by faith and not by sight. So when I say we are separated from Him its only that we are not walking in the cool of the day with Him. Now after we sin it would be different.

Ok, we are very close. I do agree that we are separated from that face to face experience, and in this condition we are devoid of truth, and that we must be shown the truth through the revelation of God's word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit wrought through his word. Without this we would be in darkness and could not be saved.

 

[webdog]

To have death is to be guilty. So if our death comes from Adam, the logical conclusion is that the guilt is also from Adam.

Plus, v. 19 makes it clear that we are appointed sinners by Adam's sin. It is not about inheritance. It is about imputation. The context of v. 13 makes that clear. Otherwise a concept like inheritance would have been used other than "impute." The fact that the original sin is the source of all this problem also has to be accounted for. Why else would it be mentioned in nearly every verse of this periscope if it is not the root cause of our death and guilt?

Your logical conclusion...how does it apply to Christ who shared in humanity in every way we did bit didn't actually sin? He died, was He guilty since He died? Animals also die, your conclusion would having them be guilty sinners too.

Also Scripture says we die (spiritually) in our sins and trespasses which clearly refutes dying in Adam....and the text states due to Adam the many were made sinners, not conceived sinners.

 

[HankD]

When Adam sinned, God cursed the ground. He also said the woman would suffer in child-bearing and be subject to her husband, that man's labor would be increased and he would return to the dust. This curse passed on all the universe, animals who do not sin die, unliving things wax old and corrupt.

But there is not one single word regarding man's moral nature. Nowhere does it say man will have a sin nature and be unable to obey or believe God. This is an utterly false man-made doctrine found nowhere in all of scripture.

I would partially agree with the last part winman.

Actually after reading one of your previous posts I see we are in agreement as to the work of the Holy Spirit in conviction of sin.

Indeed, man left in his natural state would not seek God or believe that he needs a Savior.

This is evident in Christ's prayer:

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

I believe the scripture teaches that reproval/conviction of sin is a universal gift and not just to the "elect" but to all mankind without which every one of us would be helpless, and hopeless in terms of the ability to believe and be saved.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

Those who respond positively will be saved.​

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

Whatever goodness or godward ability we perceive in ourselves is not our own.​

The scripture planly declares that we love darkness rather than light.​

But I break with calvinism in that I believe God gives/gifts the realization of sin and death to each/every human being that comes into the world.​

What each does with that realization determines his/her eternal destiny.​

How is it that some are drawn to and respond positively to the light while (apparently) most do not...​

I don't know.​

But this I know, God has done all that He is willing in the realm of His sovereignty and our responsibilty to see that every man who comes into the world has a real and viable opportunity to be saved.​

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.​

You keep mentioning animals who die.

They are not the descendants of Adam and Eve, neither do they bear the likeness and image of God.

IMO, the comparison is the proverbial "apples and oranges".


HankD

 

[JesusFan]

Your logical conclusion...how does it apply to Christ who shared in humanity in every way we did bit didn't actually sin? He died, was He guilty since He died? Animals also die, your conclusion would having them be guilty sinners too.

jesus shared same tempataions comman to all men, BUT he had NO sin nature within Him, JUST had natures of God and sinless man, as a second Adam!

We are NOT same as Jesus in our humanity, he came found in our likeness. NOT sameness, as he was born of a Virgin, conceived by HS, we are born as sinners!

Also Scripture says we die (spiritually) in our sins and trespasses which clearly refutes dying in Adam....and the text states due to Adam the many were made sinners, not conceived sinners.

When did Adam spiriitually die, as God said that he would?

 

[JesusFan]

Very interesting post Romans7man. I am going to call you R7m from now on if you don't mind, we all shorten names for brevity here.

I too have written in the past that the only moral change in Adam (all men) is that he now had the knowledge of good and evil. And I also agree this cannot be evil, as God said we have become as he is, and there is no evil in God.

Is this conscience? Conscience by definition means to know right from wrong with an inclination to do right. So, was this describing man now having a conscience? I would like to see your thoughts on this.

If so, conscience is the law written on the heart, we become a law unto ourselves (Rom 2:14-15). This explains how man died from Adam to Moses without the written law. Even without a written law, men naturally understand that lying, stealing, murder... are wrong, and a man is convicted of sin when he does that which he naturally perceives as wrong.

Or do you believe this knowledge of good and evil is something different?

Just curious, so when did Adam soiritually die, as God promised that he would IF he disobeyed God?

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
The purpose of confessions and creeds is to help people from drifting off into error. That is why I post them.
If you believed the historic confessions you would not repeatedly post this error ,over and over again;

You still have the same problem, if this verse is saying that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to many, then because of Christ righteousness shall be unconditionally be imputed to many. And if the first "many" means 100% of men, then the second "many" also means 100% of men. You cannot change the definition of the same exact word used in the same exact verse and context. This is where Universalists find their support in scripture, if vs. 12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the following verses necessarily teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to all men.

This has been answered many times,and clearly 1cor 15;22 puts an end to your false idea;

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

a square is a rhombus, but a rhombus is not necessarily a square......
how is that quantum???????

 

[Greektim]

Your logical conclusion...how does it apply to Christ who shared in humanity in every way we did bit didn't actually sin? He died, was He guilty since He died? Animals also die, your conclusion would having them be guilty sinners too.

Glad you mentioned this point. I think the language of v. 12 disqualifies Jesus. I believe in order to qualify for imputed sin, you must be able to have death "spread" to you. Since Jesus was virgin born, he is disqualified from the requirement of imputed sin, the qualification being to have death spread from father to child. Not to mention that Jesus laid down his life. Could he have died from old age or something? I don't know. The Bible doesn't really address that. The Bible just says that Jesus wasn't killed but laid down his own life. It was the Father's pleasure to crush him.

Also, I am trying to be careful and point out that Adam as our rep we have his sin AND guilt imputed to us. But Adam's sin affected more than humanity but also creation since Adam was the vice-regent of creation. Thus creation is groaning for redemption (also in Romans). This curse on creation could be said to be imputed guilt, although the sin would not necessarily transfer to amoral beings.

Also Scripture says we die (spiritually) in our sins and trespasses which clearly refutes dying in Adam....and the text states due to Adam the many were made sinners, not conceived sinners.

No... Scriptures just say we die. Period. You insert your theology. And it is not that I am disagreeing w/ you. But the issue of death in Rom. 5:12ff. is likely physical death not spiritual.

Since you mentioned v. 19, again I point out that the word "made" is a poor translation. It has the emphasis of appoint (as in a synonym of impute). Paul only used the word 1 other time in Titus 1:5 where he clearly meant "appoint." Cf. my post above where Hodge brings this out as well. It was a good quote. Therefore, v. 19 argues against your last statement and view altogether.

 

[JesusFan]

Glad you mentioned this point. I think the language of v. 12 disqualifies Jesus. I believe in order to qualify for imputed sin, you must be able to have death "spread" to you. Since Jesus was virgin born, he is disqualified from the requirement of imputed sin, the qualification being to have death spread from father to child. Not to mention that Jesus laid down his life. Could he have died from old age or something? I don't know. The Bible doesn't really address that. The Bible just says that Jesus wasn't killed but laid down his own life. It was the Father's pleasure to crush him.

Also, I am trying to be careful and point out that Adam as our rep we have his sin AND guilt imputed to us. But Adam's sin affected more than humanity but also creation since Adam was the vice-regent of creation. Thus creation is groaning for redemption (also in Romans). This curse on creation could be said to be imputed guilt, although the sin would not necessarily transfer to amoral beings.


No... Scriptures just say we die. Period. You insert your theology. And it is not that I am disagreeing w/ you. But the issue of death in Rom. 5:12ff. is likely physical death not spiritual.

Since you mentioned v. 19, again I point out that the word "made" is a poor translation. It has the emphasis of appoint (as in a synonym of impute). Paul only used the word 1 other time in Titus 1:5 where he clearly meant "appoint." Cf. my post above where Hodge brings this out as well. It was a good quote. Therefore, v. 19 argues against your last statement and view altogether.

They seem to fail to see that Adam and Jesus are "exceptions", as Adam as created by God , and w/o sin nature, and Jesus was conceived by HS, Virgin Birth, so NOT sharing our sin natures, but liek Adam originally, "perfect humanity"

They tend to base much of their theology on jesus being same as us, like by not choosing to sin, proves that we did not get the sin nature as we ascribe us getting!

 

[webdog]

When did Adam spiriitually die, as God said that he would?

When he sinned, same as every human since.

 

[JesusFan]

When he sinned, same as every human since.

when he sinned, we ALL sinned in him though, as God saw Him as representing ALL of us in his testing...

SAME way, God sees ALL who are Jesus as sharing in His obedience to God!

As His obedience was counted towards those of us who are found in him!

@ men, both representing humanity before God, IF in Adam, guilty and sinners, if in jesus, made alive again!

 

[HankD]

when he sinned, we ALL sinned in him though, as God saw Him as representing ALL of us in his testing...

SAME way, God sees ALL who are Jesus as sharing in His obedience to God!

As His obedience was counted towards those of us who are found in him!

@ men, both representing humanity before God, IF in Adam, guilty and sinners, if in jesus, made alive again!

Here is a scripture that at very least supports your proposition:

Hebrews 7

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.​

Levi paid tithes to Melkisedek though he was "yet in the loins of his father" Abraham.​

HankD​

 

[webdog]

Glad you mentioned this point. I think the language of v. 12 disqualifies Jesus.

If you use that to disqualify Jesus you also must disqualify Elijah and Enoch. The context of verse 12 is death, not sin.

I believe in order to qualify for imputed sin, you must be able to have death "spread" to you. Since Jesus was virgin born, he is disqualified from the requirement of imputed sin, the qualification being to have death spread from father to child. Not to mention that Jesus laid down his life. Could he have died from old age or something? I don't know. The Bible doesn't really address that. The Bible just says that Jesus wasn't killed but laid down his own life. It was the Father's pleasure to crush him.

This sounds like the doctrine of the immaculate conception. In all honesty, nothing here can be derived from Scripture, it is all opinion and tradition.

Also, I am trying to be careful and point out that Adam as our rep we have his sin AND guilt imputed to us.

Then people are not punished for their sin, they are punished for Adam's. This also means each fetus and infant dying sans faith perishes.

But Adam's sin affected more than humanity but also creation since Adam was the vice-regent of creation. Thus creation is groaning for redemption (also in Romans). This curse on creation could be said to be imputed guilt, although the sin would not necessarily transfer to amoral beings.

Adam was not the vice regent of creation...where do you get that? He was put into rule over the Earth, not the whole of creation that groans in anticipation of redemption.

No... Scriptures just say we die. Period. You insert your theology. And it is not that I am disagreeing w/ you. But the issue of death in Rom. 5:12ff. is likely physical death not spiritual.

You are correct, I do insert my theology that I gain from "Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins." - Ephesians 2:1

Since you mentioned v. 19, again I point out that the word "made" is a poor translation. It has the emphasis of appoint (as in a synonym of impute). Paul only used the word 1 other time in Titus 1:5 where he clearly meant "appoint." Cf. my post above where Hodge brings this out as well. It was a good quote. Therefore, v. 19 argues against your last statement and view altogether.

Every translation I have read says "made" or "became". The problem you have is the connection between Adam and Christ. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
For your understanding to work universalism would have to be the only conclusion. If all humanity is guilty in Adam and dies spiritually via one man, "so also" all humanity will be made righteous via one man. No other outcome is possible. It's contradictory to state the first group is all humanity and the second is not when they are clearly linked together in the second part of the verse as "the many". Verse 18 drives home this point further.

 

[webdog]

Here is a scripture that at very least supports your proposition:

Hebrews 7

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.​

Levi paid tithes to Melkisedek though he was "yet in the loins of his father" Abraham.​

HankD​

That is figurative, not literal....however Ephesians 2:1 is quite literal and straight forward.

 

[JesusFan]

That is figurative, not literal....however Ephesians 2:1 is quite literal and straight forward.

in the same way, ALL of us were "in the loins" of ther father of Human race, Adam!

 

[webdog]

in the same way, ALL of us were "in the loins" of ther father of Human race, Adam!

Not even close! Paul wasn't addressing the church at Ephesus in figurative terms. We die in our sins and trespasses, period. Are you going to tell me Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 are also figurative? If you cannot understand a human being paying tithes while in his father's loins as being figurative, can't help you.

 

[Winman]

Not even close! Paul wasn't addressing the church at Ephesus in figurative terms. We die in our sins and trespasses, period. Are you going to tell me Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 are also figurative? If you cannot understand a human being paying tithes while in his father's loins as being figurative, can't help you.

If what JF believes is true, then we are not only guilty of Adam's first sin, but all his sins, and the sins of all our fathers inbetween!

And if sin is inherited from our parents, why isn't righteousness? If our parents were believers, why was not their faith also imputed to us?

Ezekiel 18:20 clearly and directly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. This teaching that sin is imputed to us through Adam or our other parents is false and unscriptural. Augustine was wrong.

 

[JesusFan]

If what JF believes is true, then we are not only guilty of Adam's first sin, but all his sins, and the sins of all our fathers inbetween!

JUST as ONE man sin brought sin/death to all of us, ONE man obedience, Jesus, bring s back to ALL in Him life!

And if sin is inherited from our parents, why isn't righteousness? If our parents were believers, why was not their faith also imputed to us?

Sin entered into human condition, ALL cursed by Godin the fall, ALL of creation experiemced it, including humanity!

We all tasted spiritual/physical death, as fall brought down curse/judgement of God...

So its not a biological component to us being inherited, but the Curse itself way back yonder 'wreaked" all to come!

Ezekiel 18:20 clearly and directly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. This teaching that sin is imputed to us through Adam or our other parents is false and unscriptural. Augustine was wrong.

That passage is NOT referring to the human state/condition per say, but to the fact that God will judgedeach of us on a seperate basis, IF we do good, reward
IF we do bad, judged!