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Original Sin Or Committed Sin

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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Ann: Where does death come from?
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HP: Notice carefully my 'good faith' explanation. :smilewinkgrin:

First distinguish between physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is a consequence of sin subsequent to the fall of man. We inherit physical degeneration via our physical connection to Adam. We acquire spiritual death as a result of personal sin against a known commandment of God. Natural physical death is a natural consequence of being born human and is not in and of itself blame or punishment for sin. Spiritual eternal death is in fact the direct results of our personal sin and will only eventually become permanent IF we fail to fulfill the required conditions God has given to embrace salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ann: Does death exist where sin does not?
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HP: Absolutely, in some sense anyway. In the physical world around us everything that we see will see see death. Sin only exists in the moral realm.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: Notice carefully my 'good faith' explanation. :smilewinkgrin:

First distinguish between physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is a consequence of sin subsequent to the fall of man. We inherit physical degeneration via our physical connection to Adam. We acquire spiritual death as a result of personal sin against a known commandment of God. Natural physical death is a natural consequence of being born human and is not in and of itself blame or punishment for sin. Spiritual eternal death is in fact the direct results of our personal sin and will only eventually become permanent IF we fail to fulfill the required conditions God has given to embrace salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.



HP: Absolutely, in some sense anyway. In the physical world around us everything that we see will see see death. Sin only exists in the moral realm.
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Does the Bible say that because of Adam, physical death passed to all men and not spiritual death? How about Romans 5:18 which starts with "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men"? Condemnation for all men by one trespass. That certainly seems that the sin of Adam condemned all men, does it not? How about verse 18 that says "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners," I think that's pretty clear.

Further, Ephesians 2:1-3 is clear "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. "

We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Now let me ask you another question. If man is born without a sin nature, wouldn't there be atleast one man (besides Jesus Christ) who has never sinned? Why don't we see any?
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
It tells me our physical father is indeed Adam as physical descendants, but eternal life does not come via our physical father. All have sinned. Our only spiritual hope comes from the Second Adam, for we are fallen sinners without hope. Christ has come to redeem us from our sins and the eternal consequence of our sin and to grant to us eternal life IF we reamin firm in our hope and obedience to the end.
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1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
22. in Adam all--in union of nature with Adam, as representative head of mankind in their fall.
in Christ . . . all--in union of nature with Christ, the representative head of mankind in their recovery. The life brought in by Christ is co-extensive with the death brought in by Adam. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)
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2 Adam

Adam was a contrasting type of Christ, 1Co 15:45-47; Ro 5:14-19.

(1) "The first man Adam was made a living soul" Ge 2:7, i.e. he derived life from another, that is, God.
"The last Adam was a life-giving spirit." So far from deriving life, He was Himself the fountain of life, and He gave that life to others Joh 1:4; 5:21; 10:10; 12:24; 1Jo 5:12.

(2) In origin the first man was of the earth, earthy; the Second Man is the Lord from heaven.

(3) Each is the head of a creation, and these also are in contrast: in Adam all die; in Christ all will be made alive; the Adamic creation is "flesh"; the new creation, "spirit." Joh 3:6. (Scofield)
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1 Corinthians 15:45-50 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The contrast between the first Adam and the second Adam is stark. It is not only physical but spiritual. The passage teaches that Adam is the head of the human race; as Christ is the head of creation.
verse 45. so--in accordance with the distinction just mentioned between the natural or animal-souled body and the spiritual body.

it is written-- (Ge 2:7); "Man became (was made to become) a living soul," that is, endowed with an animal soul, the living principle of his body.

the last Adam--the LAST Head of humanity, who is to be fully manifested in the last day, which is His day (Joh 6:39). He is so called in Job 19:25; see on Cmt. on Job 19:25 (compare Ro 5:14). In contrast to "the last," Paul calls "man" (Ge 2:7) "the FIRST Adam."

quickening--not only living, but making alive (Joh 5:21; 6:33,39-40,54,57,62-63). As the natural or animal-souled body (1Co 15:44) is the fruit of our union with the first Adam, an animal-souled man, so the spiritual body is the fruit of our union with the second Adam, who is the quickening Spirit (2Co 3:17). As He became representative of the whole of humanity in His union of the two natures, He exhausted in His own person the sentence of death passed on all men, and giveth spiritual and everlasting life to whom He will. (Jamieson, Faucett and Brown)
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H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
DHK: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
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HP: If you desire to make this verse a universal statement of sin due to Adam, what stops universalism from claiming it makes their case as well when it states “in Christ shall ‘all’ be made alive?’

I find a much better approach to this verse in saying, as the physical association and being physical descendants of Adam we all will die a physical death (the rapture excluded), and if we are made descendants of Jesus Christ through salvation we will be made alive through that glorious association.


DHK: (speaking of 1Cor. 15: 45-60)The contrast between the first Adam and the second Adam is stark. It is not only physical but spiritual. The passage teaches that Adam is the head of the human race; as Christ is the head of creation.
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HP: I agree with everything here except the insinuation of the ‘federal headship doctrine’ which is not taught in Scripture in the manner in which you have been using it, i.e., ‘IN Adam we all sin.’
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: If you desire to make this verse a universal statement of sin due to Adam, what stops universalism from claiming it makes their case as well when it states “in Christ shall ‘all’ be made alive?’

I find a much better approach to this verse in saying, as the physical association and being physical descendants of Adam we all will die a physical death (the rapture excluded), and if we are made descendants of Jesus Christ through salvation we will be made alive through that glorious association.
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"In Christ shall all be made alive."
Is he speaking of physical or spiritual life? Why did Christ die on the cross?
Who is the "all" that he is speaking of? It is the all who trusted in Christ. All who believe in him are made alive.

Adam brought spiritual death; Christ brought spiritual life.
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
DHK: "In Christ shall all be made alive."
Is he speaking of physical or spiritual life? Why did Christ die on the cross?
Who is the "all" that he is speaking of? It is the all who trusted in Christ. All who believe in him are made alive.

Adam brought spiritual death; Christ brought spiritual life.
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HP: I agree that Adam brought spiritual death, though not via a federal headship or a notion of original sin, but rather via the Scripturally expounded way, by following his example of sin, even though not all in the same manner as Adam sinned. We inherit sin by following in the example of Adam and committing sin (for ALL have sinned) much the same as we inherit spiritual life by following in Christ’s example and by trusting in His shed blood as an atonemnt for our sins. (many will be made righteous through Christ, NOT by force or coercion, but by voluntarily yielding our wills to the stated conditions and trusting by faith in His blood to atone for our sins)
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: I agree that Adam brought spiritual death, though not via a federal headship or a notion of original sin, but rather via the Scripturally expounded way, by following his example of sin, even though not all in the same manner as Adam sinned. We inherit sin by following in the example of Adam and committing sin (for ALL have sinned) much the same as we inherit spiritual life by following in Christ’s example and by trusting in His shed blood as an atonemnt for our sins. (many will be made righteous through Christ, NOT by force or coercion, but by voluntarily yielding our wills to the stated conditions and trusting by faith in His blood to atone for our sins)
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So man can live sinlessly. If sin is not thrust on us by force or coercion, can you name any man who lived who was sinless?
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Ann: What are the evidences that they did not die?
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HP: Do I have to do all your homework for you?:confused::)

Let's see, in the case of Enoch he simply ‘was not’ for the Lord took him. Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should NOT SEE DEATH; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

In the case of Elijah, we have an eye witness account of him going home in a chariot of fire pulled by horses of fire and a whilrlwind. No bodies dropping dead or left on earth in either case. 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Ann: So man can live sinlessly. If sin is not thrust on us by force or coercion, can you name any man who lived who was sinless?
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HP: Maybe not, according to you at least. Go ahead, you have the floor. Wax eloquent on the sins of Enoch and Elijah for the list........... but if I can remember anything about some that tried that with old Job, that perfect man before God, who loved God and eskewed evil, I might think twice before I would even start personally lest God reprove such a one.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: Do I have to do all your homework for you?:confused::)

Let's see, in the case of Enoch he simply ‘was not’ for the Lord took him. Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should NOT SEE DEATH; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

In the case of Elijah, we have an eye witness account of him going home in a chariot of fire pulled by horses of fire and a whilrlwind. No bodies dropping dead or left on earth in either case. 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
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However, since Hebrews 11:13 says "These all died in faith", then is there an issue maybe we're not seeing?

As for Elijah, we see that he was taken in a chariot into "heaven". Which heaven was this?

Remember John 3:13 says "And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: Maybe not, according to you at least. Go ahead, you have the floor. Wax eloquent on the sins of Enoch and Elijah for the list........... but if I can remember anything about some that tried that with old Job, that perfect man before God, who loved God and eskewed evil, I might think twice before I would even start personally lest God reprove such a one.
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What does Romans 3:23 say?

How about Romans 5:12?
 
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