Original Sin

The way I understand it is that the sin nature is at conception... Whether the embryonic stage reaches full term or not and can commit an act of sin!... No sin nature... No Savior or the need for one... IMHO! ... Brother Glen

 

So what about a three-day-old? Can he sin? What about a one-year-old? Where is the line with this method of reasoning?

 

Have you ever heard a mother's child cry and cry and cry and incessantly cry, only to have the mother go to the child and attempt to appease him./her with attention attempting to feed, diaper, etc. only to find that all the child wanted was to be held, nothing wrong. Is this not a lie?

I would say essentially it is. The child learns quickly that mom jumps at the sound of a whimper and this is used as a tool to manipulate dear old mom, thus, when the child has no real need of hunger etc, but only wants to be held, thus the child is committing a lie.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Gods Curse was perfect..It covered everything..

Gods Pardon was perfect...It covered everything.

 

Me2 writes:
Gods Curse was perfect..It covered everything..

Gods Pardon was perfect...It covered everything.

Scott asks:
Based upon the above, everyone is saved.

 

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

"Original sin was neither total seperation, nor permanent seperation of God towards Man"

 

Me2,
You wrote:
Gods Pardon was perfect...It covered everything.

Scott asks:
If everyone was *pardoned*(as a judge would do today), why are people still sentenced?
Why is not everyone then going to Heaven if Christ propitiated for the world?

Why are there people *still* going to Hell?

[ November 13, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Hi Scott,

I Simply state that God Designed Man to be temporarily seperated From Gods power, to teach Man.
He infers the plan.
To place man in this seperated state called "death" and later retreive him.


My problem is Man inventing an alternative plan that permits God to punish and torment mankind in some state of eternal afterlife..... Even before being declared guilty!

Just as some seem to create loopholes in Gods Curse, that is designed to Eliminate all possibilities of escaping his sovereign control. They tend to now want God to selectively administer "Righteous imputation" on some..... while leaving others to the winds of Fate or even predestined to be tortured...All of these ideas lead to the notion of some kind of impartial unfairness of God towards some and eventually towards All...

The only fair view is the imputation of righteousness on All unrighteousness
which is back to your point..will God Save Everybody ?..
My reply is, "its everybody or nobody"...We all deserve the same fate.

Thats Faith in God..It's All or Nothing.
It's his way, or no way

******************************************************

How do we "Know" anyone is going Anywhere after death?..

God will Judge all after we leave this world.
..unless we live by faith, that is by reaching into that future, and being allowed to recognize that Jesus has Died and has been ressurrected. That requires God the father to draw and unveil the eyes of the person in question. and to give that person the faith, to understand and accept what they are being allowed to "see".

But not all men are drawn Now and all men are not allowed to See now......?

While Evil exists in our environment..It still is under control of God..and God Does Allows those still in ignorance to tell us strange stories of who they believe God is..Even thats under control.

But to not consider the statement of Jesus Completely Destroying Death..Of Conquering The Power of Evil, which is Sin, Gives the thought of one not believing that Jesus is Actually Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That Jesus Statements of Forgiving All Because of Who He Believes the Fathers Nature is,.... Is Invalid.
Or Even That the Grace of God which is Infinite Love, is Ineffective when it Comes to Mans Choices Through Ignorance. and Grace MUST step aside!

Sounds like theres loopholes and strange stories about God and His Plans all over the place....

[ November 13, 2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Me2 writes:
My problem is Man inventing an alternative plan that permits God to punish and torment mankind in some state of eternal afterlife..... Even before being declared guilty!

Scott responds:
1st of all.........."inventing", this is your opinion. 2nd, you state that God punishes men for eternity prior to being "declared guilty". Me2, are you not aware that "ALL" men deserve hell? All men have fallen in father Adam. All men should go to hell based upon Adams sin. If one begins here with this premise, theology proper follows suit. So.........men are NOT sent to hell before being declared guilty. Even before they are born, they are guilty.

Me2 then adds:
Just as some seem to create loopholes in Gods Curse, that is designed to Eliminate all possibilities of escaping his sovereign control.

Scott asks:
Me2 Who is God? Can the created thing escape from God? One cannot escape control that is sovereign.

You add:
They tend to now want God to selectively administer "Righteous imputation" on some..... while leaving others to the winds of Fate or even predestined to be tortured...All of these ideas lead to the notion of some kind of impartial unfairness of God towards some and eventually towards All...

Scott continues........How can God be unfair? All deserve hell remember?
Please read this scripture carefully.

Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
~Paul is saddened for Israel Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Me2 writes:
The only fair view is the imputation of righteousness on All unrighteousness
which is back to your point..will God Save Everybody ?..
My reply is, "its everybody or nobody"...We all deserve the same fate.

Thats Faith in God..It's All or Nothing.
It's his way, or no way

Scott asks:
Please explain the above.......it's quite "blurry". My question was: If Christs' propitiating at Calvary was for everyone, then everyone has been "pardoned". If everyone has been pardoned, then why do men still go to hell?

 

Hi Scott,

God is All or Nothing...

God Desires, He Wills, all men to be saved.
Jesus Came to die for all men
He Commands us to Pray for all men, to forgive all men, to Love all men.
Jesus destroyed all enemies, conquered all powers,

Do you see a pattern?

I comprehend that Gods imputation of righteousness on mankind, and Gods call of His elected to exist by faith are two seperate events. Although they coexist together.
But to explain them is more difficult. They have to be seperated to be explained...
and can be confusing when reading the bible without the revelation of God.
Your explanations of punishment and wrath of God towards men is contained within Gods system of calling His elect. Against such people who are called, but do not desire to fully submit to their God who is sovereign...... That is my comprehension of your "Hell"...and it doesn't continue afterlife.

What are the wages of Sin...death
...That is the punishment for the original sin..its seperation of Man from Gods life.
We were born in our punishment.

But "Hell" is the state of frustration of a believer who are called, but cannot fully accept the sovereignty of God. His instructions for their life to become righteous. Its their perspective, and their comprehension, of understanding their position towards their God, his nature, his plans, and other peoples lives aroud them.

And again..It stops at death of the body...then the judgement
..Guess what..their still saved.

Religions concept of "Hell" ,or of furthur punishment after death is vengeful and not corrective in nature. It serves no future purpose of bettering the individual. It does not help to teach, but its purpose is only to administer cruel vindictiveness.

A concept which I dont agree with.......

 

Me2,
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about........whatever it is, it is not orthodox.

1) I suggest you do a word study of the term "sovereign/sovereignty".

Let me quote R.C. Sproul:

"If human freedom and devine sovereignty are real contradictions, then one of them, at least, has to go. If sovereignty excludes freedom and freedom excludes sovereignty, then either God is not sovereign or man is not free."

In regards to your view on Hell:
Me2 writes:
Religions concept of "Hell" ,or of furthur punishment after death is vengeful and not corrective in nature.

Scott adds:
"Corrective in nature..." WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
God does suffer His creatures vengefully:

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deu 32:34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies , and will reward them that hate me.
Deu 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance : he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Me2 adds (in regards to God issuing vengance):

"It serves no future purpose of bettering the individual. It does not help to teach, but its purpose is only to administer cruel vindictiveness."

Scott inquires:
So you don't think the *fear of hell* is an un-efficient doctrine in the church today? The masses would disagree........I frightened! Very frightened!

By the way, God is NOT vindictive; He is vengeful, but not vindictive!

I believe this conversation has had it's day!

[ November 13, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Jesus came to die for sin and the elect of God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas