OSAS? (An example)

By Believing in God, Jesus, we receive and accept the 'conditional promise' of eternal life by believing during this natural life. Our belief marks us, makes us different than the unbeliever, for eternal life. Our names get written in the Lamb's book of life. But, according to several scriptures including Revelation, our names can be blotted from the book of life.

The Conditional promise is that we receive eternal life so long as we meet the condition.

The condition applies only to this natural life.

Once we have departed this natural life, the actual condition of our faith determines whether or not we spend eternity with the object of our faith or get cast into the lake of fire. If we have faith in God (Jesus), we are Saved from the lake of Fire, and enter into our eternal life's work of Praising God. If we do not have such faith in God, we are cast into that lake of fire.

 

Jesus says that eternal life for humanity is dependent upon man's belief in him!

 

Please demonstrate how belief and faith are not the same.

 

Graig starts from a position of many assumptions including a given object of belief or unbelief. That is the wrong place to start! He does not discuss what belief or faith truly is in man. Only what it is in reference to one object of belief/faith.

We are talking about man and that which man must possess in order to have that which God gives. It should be clear to everyone, that God is not in need of any possessions similar to what are required of man because God is the creator of all that is. So, let us not discuss God, only God's created man. After we have established the essence of man, then we can discuss the object of man's belief/faith.

What is Belief?

What is Faith?

What is the "heart of man"?

Sorry to get so basic, but until we recognize what these things are and how they work, it is not possible to come to agreement...we've already gone that other route.

 

You say Belief and faith are not the same, then give me Craig.

Doesn't make sense!

You obviously do not know the difference that you say exists, so end of discussion!

 

First I did not disagree with Craig, but I did say that his discussion starts with a lot of assumptions that are not necessary to the discussion of belief and faith.

The question I have to ask you then, is it possible to have faith without belief? or Can faith exist without belief?

As I said, the object of belief/faith is not necessary to arrive at the definition/relationship of either. In other words, it is not necessary to discuss God in order to discuss belief. Nor is it necessary to discuss God to discuss faith. Craig's whole discussion is on the basis of a specific belief or faith in God. That is not necessary to arrive at agreement as to what belief or faith are.

You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.

In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.

You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.

Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!

So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith.

 

Frogman, Why can't you answer simple questions in your own words?

The writings of others that you post are so verbose as to make them uninteresting to read. I do not want to have dialog with Craig, he is not here to answer questions nor to give counterpoint or further explanation.

If you cannot answer with your own words, that is pretty good indication that you do not have a position on the topic.

 

Whether or not we believe, God is always faithful because he cannot deny himself. That is, it matters not whether we believe, our belief or unbelief does not change God! God is not going to sit down and pout because joe schmuk refuses to believe in him. God made the way for our redemption, he is not going to stop being God if we do not accept that way.

 

That is precisely why using Graigs text does not answer the questions. Craig does not take into consideration how God made man able and capable of having belief and or faith regardless of the object of that belief/faith. And you do not want to acknowledge God's finished creation either, because doing so destroys your belief in Total Depravity and the associated limitations that such belief imposes on God's finished creation, man.

The scriptures say that human belief is what is required of the human in order to have eternal life. Therefore is it is essential that we understand human belief, which is the only variable in the equation of God's salvation of man. The ability to Believe is an attribute that God put into man in the creation, and by the very nature of that ability man can have it or not have it regarding any object. Again by the very nature of human belief, man can have belief in an object then change or lose that belief. Human belief is a transient that is always on the move as I tried to illustrate with the "green cheese moon" idea. There were many a man that actually believed the moon "could be" made of cheese. However the whole world knows now that the moon is made of essentially the same materials that the earth is made of. So the old belief in cheese has disappeared in the light of knowledge.

Yes, the Gift that God gives for our belief in His son is eternal life. God will not in any way change that gift it is forever. However the gift is given to those who have that belief in Jesus when this natural life is ended. Those who believe in Jesus will not be judged, because they have passed from death into eternal life with Christ. Those who do not believe in Jesus when this life is ended will be judged because they do not have that essential ingrededient that separates them from the unbelievers. The ingredient is belief in Jesus. Regardless of whether or not they once had that belief while living this life, if they do not have it when this life is ended, they will not receive the Gift of eternal life.

I stand on this as a Biblical fact: "man cannot believe nor possess faith except it has first been granted to him from God". You have continually returned to the argument of the original creation of man. What you miss in making your argument is that man had no need to possess faith or believe anything. God was very real to him. In his original condition man was not blinded by the sin nature. But he did not know the love of God nor the grace of God nor the Glory of God. The description you provide is agreeable to me concerning the first man. Now you must show why you do not believe Adam used his abilities to rebel against God rather than to obey his commands. When you do this remember you are attempting to prove man possesses the same qualities he possessed prior to the fall and provide scripture to support your findings that man is still in possession of the original attributes and in possession of the image of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Where in scriptures do you find that God changed his created man?

If I have dodged this in this discussion I believe there is good reason. This doesn't further our discussion of whether a person in possession of eternal life can lose it or not. But I have not dodged this at other times and am willing to meet it directly any time. The Bible declares man is dead in trespasses and sins. The Bible declares that Christ by himself purged us from our sins. The Bible declares faith to be a gift from God. The Bible declares that if we believe not he remains faithful and cannot deny himself. We do not make the declarations of God true because we possess or do not possess faith, nor do we because we believe or disbelieve.</font>[/QUOTE]Open your eyes Frogman, If sin blocked out the ability to belief or to have faith, there would be no civilization, there would be no democracy, there would be not Trade Centers to destroy and there could be no means to destroy. The trade centers were conceived and built on the basis of faith. They stood tall because of the faith of the builders, and they came down because of the faith of the destroyers.

If man has no ability to believe or have faith, none of man's achievements would exist. God, in creating man, gave man all the things that man would ever need to do what God said he should do. Man simply uses those capabilities to do "other than God's will". When man sinned, it was in accordance with God's plan for man. God made the garden with the trees in the center, God made the serpent, and lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer. The serpent and lucifer perhaps are the same entity. God cast Lucifer and his band of demons to the earth, the very place where God put man. There is no scripture that says that God altered his created man when he expelled them from the Garden. God cursed the earth so that man would have to toil to survive. He cursed the woman so that she would experience pain in childbirth. Adam did not know the meaning of work, nor did Eve know the meaning of childbirth but they found out. But there is no other scripture dealing with changes in man from Adam and Eve to now. All other scriptures dealing with man deal with the spiritual abilities that God placed in man from Adam and Eve. Sin corrupted those abilities such that man lost close fellowship with God who is spirit. Otherwise, man has not changed from Adam and Eve to modern 21st century man.

Then in light of our surroundings I must tell you it appears we are in agreement. In this and all discussions here the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity of God. Faith is not something that we possess ourselves.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you are once again ignoring how God made man.

I do not understand this statement. I cannot think in these terms. We are discussing whether or not the faith a child of God possesses can be lost such that that person is eternally lost. I do not wish to offend you, but you give an appearance of attempting to shift the focus from God as the object of faith and attempt to win your argument by proving any loss of faith shows you to be right. Our focal point is faith in God that is possessed by a child of God and no other faith is considered for there is no other faith under discussion here. What you are discussing is belief. A sick person believes they are able to get better because they possess a measure of faith in their physician. A child of God believes he can get better because his/her faith is in God to work all things according to his will. The child of God does not know the ultimate will of God in these things but answers as the three Hebrew children thrown in the furnace whether or not He will or He will not, He is able to deliver us. Our discussion would be more fruitful if you would stay with the focus being upon faith in God. It is that which you are trying to prove can be lost and unless you prove that you cannot prove your argument. It is possible that I could fall away from my service to God and possible the brethren may lose confidence in me, but it is not possible to either destroy, lose or discard what God has worked in my heart.</font>[/QUOTE]YES, I am discussing BELIEF; the sick person believes they should be well. That BELIEF grows into FAITH in the doctor and in the medications, and the attendents, etc., that aid them in becoming well once again. Whether or not the object of the sick person's faith is God, that sick person continues to have FAITH. And that sir, is my point, MAN IS CAPABLE OF BELIEVING AND HAVING FAITH OUTSIDE THE REALM OF SPIRITUALITY, God made it so, not I!

James knew that man can hear, believe, then forget, change belief, and fall away. James also clearly understood that those who do not "forget" receive blessing in every undertaking. James was speaking to Christians, believers, warning them of what can happen. </font>[/QUOTE]

Again, Paul, using three different examples points out that "success" does not come to those who drop out, fail to compete according to the rules. Why would Paul say that if there is "no possibility" for Christians to lose their faith?</font>[/QUOTE]

Jesus was not warning Peter that He alone should not become the wicked servant, but that ALL to whom the truth has been given must remain true and faithful to that truth until the Master returns, else he shall receive the just punishment. The truth in "to whom much is given much is expected", implies that man can fall away, or fail to meet expectations, and will receive judgement for doing so. There are more examples, but this is too lengthy anyway.

The argument of Total Depravity cannot be proved nor disproved apart from the acknowledgment that God must be the object of faith. This is impossible. You must prove that man is able of his own will, despite the degree of depravity he possesses, to engage in faith that validates the eternal purpose of God. Neither you nor I can accomplish this by arguing in any way that removes God from the focus of that faith. Can man have faith or believe his roof will not fall in on him as he sleeps in his bed each night? Yes, of course he can have this faith. Does this prove he can have faith in God? No. Because this proves only that he has faith in the workmanship of the carpenter that built his home.</font>[/QUOTE]What this proves is that belief and faith reside in the human as part of what God put into the first human, and which has been handed down generation to generation. Beliefs change based on knowledge. God's word says, "For lack of knowledge, My people perish." God's word links belief/faith with knowledge. Because God knows all, God does not have as an attribute either belief or faith, as they are unnecessary in the light of knowledge. The Faithfulness of God has nothing to do with faith! Faithfulness in God is the eternal presence of God, the ever present helping hand, the trustworthy ability of God to do that which God has said he would do when man believes in Him. Man in his most vile state of sinfulness, can hear the word of God, the Gospel message, and can by hearing believe that there is a God who loves him enough to give His only begotten Son to save him. Man can accept that simple truth and believe it and thereby come to faith in Jesus Christ. Once man believes even that simple truth, the Holy Spirit indwells to shed the light of truth on all the mysteries of God that establish saving faith (permanent faith). But don't forget "the birds" (parable of the sower) that come along to pluck up those seeds of faith and prevent them from growing. Then there are the weeds, "the cares of life", that choke out faith and keep it from growing. And the trials by heat, when the faith that has started to grow gets withered and dies under the heat of criticism because it lacks food and water (knowledge). No, my friend, there are many enemies to faith in God and man can lose faith. Man can turn away of his own free will, thus taking his hand from the plow and turning back. That is what the scriptures say! Believe it or not!

It is not that I doubt Craig's faith in God,nor is it that I do not agree with what he says, but rather that his position like your own ignores the way that God made man.

OSAS is TRUE, but only for those who come to faith and retain that faith through to the death of this natural life. It is when one passes from natural death having faith in God, that one enters into life in Jesus Christ. Without such faith, one faces the Judgement of God, and the second death of the Lake of Fire. That is what scriptures say!