OSAS? (An example)

[Frogman]

Isn't 'eternal life' also in the future, at least from our standpoint?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Isn't 'eternal life' also in the future, at least from our standpoint?

Bro. Dallas

By Believing in God, Jesus, we receive and accept the 'conditional promise' of eternal life by believing during this natural life. Our belief marks us, makes us different than the unbeliever, for eternal life. Our names get written in the Lamb's book of life. But, according to several scriptures including Revelation, our names can be blotted from the book of life.

The Conditional promise is that we receive eternal life so long as we meet the condition.

The condition applies only to this natural life.

Once we have departed this natural life, the actual condition of our faith determines whether or not we spend eternity with the object of our faith or get cast into the lake of fire. If we have faith in God (Jesus), we are Saved from the lake of Fire, and enter into our eternal life's work of Praising God. If we do not have such faith in God, we are cast into that lake of fire.

 

[Frogman]

eternal life is conditioned only upon the Obedient manifestation of God in the flesh whose death in the flesh condemned sin. If eternal life depends upon man/men/woman/women/child/children, no person will receive it.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
eternal life is conditioned only upon the Obedient manifestation of God in the flesh whose death in the flesh condemned sin. If eternal life depends upon man/men/woman/women/child/children, no person will receive it.

Bro. Dallas

Jesus says that eternal life for humanity is dependent upon man's belief in him!

 

[Frogman]

Jesus also said that all the Father has given him will come to him and that he will in no wise cast them out.

Brother,
Belief is different than faith, they are not one and the same.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Jesus also said that all the Father has given him will come to him and that he will in no wise cast them out.

Brother,
Belief is different than faith, they are not one and the same.

Bro. Dallas

Please demonstrate how belief and faith are not the same.

 

[Frogman]

Here is the first part of an article by Elder W.S. Craig:

Elder Craig explains the difference in faith and belief.

Bro. Dallas

Dear Brethren,

Elder W.S. Craig wrote an interesting article entitled Unbelief And Belief. I will try and quote enough of the article to be true to the context. It start with a more technical and theological approach in describing unbelief, and then gives a practical application on how we as believers can struggle with unbelief, though differently than the unregenerate. The only part I will leave out are his quotes from other men. I will give the application and experimental part later tonight or tomorrow..

"Unbelief means not to believe in God. The Atheist and Infidel are unbelievers. The Agnostic and Skeptic are called doubters, but {it} is plain to my mind that they are actual unbelievers, though they may not be so bold in their denials. While there are different degrees or shades of unbelief, yet all manner of unbelief is an awful sin in God's sight. Unbelief is often called distrust in God's faithfulness, lack of confidence and reliance upon Him, and discrediting the Bible's testimony concerning Jesus Christ.-John 3:18;16:9."
"Unbelief is one of the greatest sins, for it seems to be the cause of so many other sins, and probably was connected with Adam's first transgression. Unbelief strikes directly at God, has no fear of Him, and casts a positive reproach and discredit upon what He says in the Bible, and shows an actual contempt for His authority and dominion. So the dangers of unbelief are many and very great. It surely leads the mind away from God, and is licentious in its very nature. It positively hardens the heart, deceives with many errors, and unless the unbeliever is rescued by the power of God's Spirit, the wrath of God will at last abide on him.-John 3:36. The unbeliever is already condemned, verse 18; and at last shall be damned, Mark 16:16.
"All men in natures night are really unbelievers. The much boasted powers and abilities of the most gifted, before regeneration or the new birth, do not enable anyone to know God in that sense which is life eternal."
"While faith and belief are often used interchangeably, yet there is sometimes a very important difference between them. For belief is often confined to the mind or intellect, and so it is possible for an unbeliever in Jesus Christ to give an intellectual admission to the doctrine of the Bible. But faith embraces far more, for it has trust and confidence joined with it, and is of the heart, And this trust springs up from a reliance upon God as its very support. It is with the heart that we believe in the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ as being wholly sufficient for our redemption and justification, and this is far more than an intellectual assent of the mind or intelligence. The Bible believer actually believes in the wonderful actions, influence and presence of an unseen power. The intelligence reasons, but does not feel. But the heart is sensitive and feels to mourn when made spiritually acquainted with its poverty and helplessness."
"The unregenerate may easily attain unto a historical or creed faith, but all such head-knowledge of Jesus Christ cannot savingly benefit them. Even the devils knew our Savior in this intellectual sense.-James 2:19; Mark 1:24,34;3:11; Luke4:34,41."

~copied

 

[Yelsew]

Graig starts from a position of many assumptions including a given object of belief or unbelief. That is the wrong place to start! He does not discuss what belief or faith truly is in man. Only what it is in reference to one object of belief/faith.

We are talking about man and that which man must possess in order to have that which God gives. It should be clear to everyone, that God is not in need of any possessions similar to what are required of man because God is the creator of all that is. So, let us not discuss God, only God's created man. After we have established the essence of man, then we can discuss the object of man's belief/faith.

What is Belief?

What is Faith?

What is the "heart of man"?

Sorry to get so basic, but until we recognize what these things are and how they work, it is not possible to come to agreement...we've already gone that other route.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I didn't know there is another thread topic discuss on osas. I just find out 2 days ago, because I saw the latest 20 posts list on the front of Baptistboard introduction.

Right now, my computer is still repairing. When my computer is fixed, I will discuss on osas this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,
Maybe the thread on implications of brain research can help us to establish these two...what is faith/belief.

Bro.Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Yelsew,
Maybe the thread on implications of brain research can help us to establish these two...what is faith/belief.

Bro.Dallas

You say Belief and faith are not the same, then give me Craig.

Doesn't make sense!

You obviously do not know the difference that you say exists, so end of discussion!

 

[Frogman]

How are belief and faith the same? What is wrong with Craig except that you disagree with him, I thought he provides an adequate distinction between the two.

We can end discussion if you wish, yet if we do this we will have succeeded only in failing. Failing because we have taken the position prior to establishing the issue and have set about to prove the position independent of the issue.

The issue is that you are arguing for an intellectual type of accepting Christ which makes faith and belief the same and I am arguing that faith is spiritual while belief(s) can be intellectually supported.

This is the issue we must deal with if we are going to be profitable, otherwise we will only advance as far as our heads can butt one against the other.

What basis do you propose belief and faith are the same? Show why you disagree with Craig, or end the discussion, any one of these is your choice to make.

I agree with Craig not because he is a Primitive Baptist nor because he agrees with me, but because I am in agreement with his argument showing the distinction between belief and faith.

Faith is what is imparted to the individual at the moment the Holy Spirit quickens him, belief is something occurring in the quickened individual upon hearing the Gospel. One is a work of the Holy Spirit alone the other can be influenced by the intellect.

This is the heart of our disagreement, we have come much farther than we have ever been before in our discussion, why would it be of any benefit for us to end discussion?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

[ September 15, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Yelsew]

First I did not disagree with Craig, but I did say that his discussion starts with a lot of assumptions that are not necessary to the discussion of belief and faith.

The question I have to ask you then, is it possible to have faith without belief? or Can faith exist without belief?

As I said, the object of belief/faith is not necessary to arrive at the definition/relationship of either. In other words, it is not necessary to discuss God in order to discuss belief. Nor is it necessary to discuss God to discuss faith. Craig's whole discussion is on the basis of a specific belief or faith in God. That is not necessary to arrive at agreement as to what belief or faith are.

You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.

In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.

You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.

Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!

So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith.

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,
Here is the second part of Craig's article, I think it also pertains to the questions you have asked me.

I will answer them at a later time in my own words. If you will go back to all the times that I have dodged the question [or refused the burden of proof] of the validity of Total Depravity, you will note that I have not refused this burden. Instead, I have shown from scripture the truthfulness of how that man has fallen from his original creation.

Can faith exist without belief? yes. But this answer is much more complicated than yes or no. It involves asking and answering what you mean by what the person having faith believes. The article by W S Craig is below, I will later offer scripture to show the differences in a persons faith and their beliefs.

Dear Brethren:

Here is the rest of the article by Elder W.S. Craig. This portion deals with the struggle of unbelief in the heart of a child of God, as opposed to the unregenerate. Again, I will not put the quotes from other men for brevity. This is very experimental and practical for the Lord's people.

"But it is not so much concerning the unbelief of those who know not God, but of the Lord's chosen and regenerated people that I wish to specially notice. For to their sorrow and uneasiness of mind, they are often more or less filled with a spirit of unbelief. If it was possible for them to trust God fully and at all times, they would never be troubled with doubts and fears concerning either their temporal or eternal welfare. Unbelief is one of the fruitful causes of spiritual backsliding and carelessness in matters of religion and church duties. The warmhearted Christian is not troubled with unbelief, because love and faith abounds in his heart. But when these grow cold, then a way is opened for the spirit of unbelief to enter and work. And unbelief often manifests its presence in the heart by that awful spirit of murmuring against God, and which is surely a very grievous sin. It will cause the Lord's people to doubt His providential watchcare over them in this life, and also fill their minds with discontent."
"Surely the gracious Lord loves a trustful dependence upon Him, for He so well knows that His people are 'but dust,' and that they always have need of Him, though they often may not feel their need very strongly. And should the Christian find himself unable or unwilling to trust God as he should, then his heart is ready to break out in unbelief and contradiction of the teaching of the Bible. And therefore so much of his fears and uneasiness of mind springs from his lack of faith in God. For if only he could feel to commit all his concerns and anxieties into the wise and merciful hands of the Lord, surely his comforts would be far greater and his mind much more serene and tranquil. And most surely God's people should pray for faith just the same as any other blessing. For it should ever be remembered by them that it takes the very same great Author of faith to increase it in the heart, as to give it in the first place. 'Increase our faith'-Luke17:5. And if the apostles that had the great benefit of the personal teachings of Jesus Christ, actually needed Him to increase their faith, how very much more do all other poor, weak and needy pilgrims need His help in this very same way. A spirit of grace and supplication, Zech 12:10, is well calculated to lead them in trustful confidence to His wonderful throne of mercy."
"Satan has such a powerful hand in stirring up this evil spirit of unbelief in the hearts of the Lord's people. He is the accuser of the brethren, Rev. 12:10, and his accusations are always calculated to undermine their faith and confidence in God. Surely the corruption's of fallen nature furnishes a fruitful field for his operations, and if he was allowed to fully have his way, he would rob every one of the Lord's people of every particle of faith, trust and confidence in Him. Satan is a very dangerous foe and would most gladly go beyond his bounds."
"True faith is a gracegift of God, and He alone can increase it who gives it. And to exercise this kind of faith in Him is a wonderful part of divine worship, and the grandest thing that poor sinners can do this side of heaven; but this faith does not procure justification, it is only the hand that receives it. Because it is by faith that they are enabled to confidingly trust in the merits of the Redeemer's blood for salvation."
"The finished work of Jesus Christ when upon earth and His all-prevailing intercession from heaven, are the whole grounds of the believer's trust and confidence in Him. For true faith will not allow that there is one single place of weakness in His wonderful work of salvation. This kind of faith fears not to trust the whole weight of salvation to Jesus Christ, because it so assuredly leads its possessors to see all saving merit and power in Him."
"Faith is a gift of God.-Eph. 2:8. And its gracious blessings are all of His own contriving and bestowing. His marvelous love for sinners is the motive which induced Him in mercy to freely give His blessings. The true believer in God occupies a high position. Though it seems to be so strongly doubted by many, yet it is a Bible truth that the believer has the immortal seeds of eternal life within himself. John 3:36; v. 24-5; vi. 47; 17:3."
"I do not understand that everybody or people in general are required or commanded to believe that Jesus Christ savingly died for each and all of them, since that position cannot be true, because He only so died for some of the human family, although this was a large number. The obligation to believe must be limited to the truthfulness of what is believed, and therefore cannot go beyond the salvation purposes of God. Neither can anyone make anything true by his most strenuous efforts at trying to believe that it is so. For all Bible truth rests upon a divine foundation of its own, and therefore not upon the feeble efforts of people now living. And therefore the thing believed relating to the salvation work of Jesus Christ, must have previously been true of itself, in order for anyone to be benefited by it. But the gospel does call upon all Spirit-convicted sinners who feel their need of the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, by way of encouraging and directing them to believe in the divine truthfulness of the Scriptures, and the wonderful doctrines it contains, and especially that He died for the salvation of His elect or chosen people, and those who are called and quickened into life and made to spiritually feel and realize by experience that they are indeed sinners. And the believer in the sin-cleansing virtues and heaven-purchasing power of that wonderful redemption, is surely encouraged with a most blessed and precious hope that this gracious work of the Saviour of sinners, included him also among that election of grace. Neither can anyone believe to a certainty that his individual name has been written in the Book of Life, but by grace he can hope, and sometimes feel most sweetly assured that through God's rich and saving mercy, it has been written there."
"Saving belief in the Lord is not a product of the human heart. To so believe in God or to have such faith in Him, is to rely upon and trust in Him, and this trust appears through the discovery of something that is really calculated to support that trust, for such faith must have a divine foundation. True faith is the work of God.-John 6:29; Eph. 1:19; I Pet. 1:21, It is a gift of God-Phils. 1:29; Eph. 2:8. Jesus is its author and finisher. Heb. 12:2. And it is a fruit of the Spirit. Gal. 5:22. And faith as a grace of the Spirit, consists in giving confiding credit to what God says in the Scriptures. Man is the author of opinion and presumption, but very positively he is not the author of true faith, nor can he increase it in his heart. Neither can he make anything true by wishing, desiring or believing it from his own ability. For simply believing either truth or error does not in any way make it true or false. But true faith is the hand which accepts that which was actually true before it was believed. That the Great Shepherd of the sheep will protectingly care for all of His chosen people through life and safely conduct them all home to glory, is a positive Bible truth in and of itself and not dependent upon the later work of the Spirit in leading penitent sinners to believe it in order to make it so."
" Sometimes men in the presumption of their ignorance lay great stress on the act of believing, as though saving belief was an exclusive product of the power of their minds, and was actually produced by some great effort of themselves. While Paul so often speaks of faith, yet it is not the act of believing, but the great and glorious object of faith-Jesus Christ-which the mind and affections embraces."
"The Lord's people should never be surprised at their seasons of unbelief. For there will be times in which their faith in God will be darkly clouded with many doubts and fears. Abraham, whose faith stands on everlasting record, had his seasons of unbelief and doubts. For it was plainly through unbelief and doubts. For it was plainly through unbelief that He and Sarah tried to assist the Lord and keep His word from falling to the ground. But the Lord's promise was just as certain of fulfillment as if they had never doubted it in the least degree whatever. For their unbelief did not hinder the fulfillment of that promise, nor cause the Lord to change His arrangements about the matter, because He carefully saw that His promise was made good when His own time rolled around. And now people sometimes say that it is dangerous to wait until the time of the Lord may come, and it plainly appears that that was exactly what Abraham and Sarah thought. For in full harmony with such doctrine they put forth their best efforts to aid God; but we see that the results of their free will endeavors, though so well intended, was only a mocking Ishmaelite. And all believers will surely read this history of Abraham to but little profit, if they fail to discover this important lesson. While our labors are so necessary to our obedience, yet they are not calculated to aid the Lord in any of His sovereign and gracious designs."

May God Richly Bless you.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Frogman, Why can't you answer simple questions in your own words?

The writings of others that you post are so verbose as to make them uninteresting to read. I do not want to have dialog with Craig, he is not here to answer questions nor to give counterpoint or further explanation.

If you cannot answer with your own words, that is pretty good indication that you do not have a position on the topic.

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,
I do have position and you do have a position. The problem is that we are never going to get anywhere because we each have this position.

I don't understand...'why can't you answer with your own words' I have done this all along. The difference is I do not make up definitions to suit my position.

In this debate, if that is what it is, your position is that a child of God can lose their faith and be lost, my position is they cannot. Now I will give you one passage to show why I believe this to be true.

2 Timothy 2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14  ¶Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Tell me what is meant by vs. 13:

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
I didn't know there is another thread topic discuss on osas. I just find out 2 days ago, because I saw the latest 20 posts list on the front of Baptistboard introduction.

Right now, my computer is still repairing. When my computer is fixed, I will discuss on osas this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Welcome to the discussion looking forward to hearing what you have to say also.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

First I did not disagree with Craig, but I did say that his discussion starts with a lot of assumptions that are not necessary to the discussion of belief and faith.

This is a discussion forum in which 'assumptions' are that God is the object of faith, I don't understand your point about Craig's article here, elaborate.

The question I have to ask you then, is it possible to have faith without belief? or Can faith exist without belief?

Yes. Faith can exist without belief. This is why Craig's article is relevant to this discussion he addresses this very question and does this from a Biblical position.

As I said, the object of belief/faith is not necessary to arrive at the definition/relationship of either. In other words, it is not necessary to discuss God in order to discuss belief. Nor is it necessary to discuss God to discuss faith. Craig's whole discussion is on the basis of a specific belief or faith in God. That is not necessary to arrive at agreement as to what belief or faith are.

The basis of this discussion is whether or not a child of God can lose their faith and find themselves lost again. Because this is the basis of the discussion God is central to the discussion if we are to arrive at any conclusion. The problem is that we must determine how we are going to establish why it is impossible for a child of God to lose this position. In my own words I have stated the nature of the gift of God is eternal. It is eternal life therefore its nature is determined by God and cannot be changed.

You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.

I stand on this as a Biblical fact: "man cannot believe nor possess faith except it has first been granted to him from God". You have continually returned to the argument of the original creation of man. What you miss in making your argument is that man had no need to possess faith or believe anything. God was very real to him. In his original condition man was not blinded by the sin nature. But he did not know the love of God nor the grace of God nor the Glory of God. The description you provide is agreeable to me concerning the first man. Now you must show why you do not believe Adam used his abilities to rebel against God rather than to obey his commands. When you do this remember you are attempting to prove man possesses the same qualities he possessed prior to the fall and provide scripture to support your findings that man is still in possession of the original attributes and in possession of the image of God.

In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.

If I have dodged this in this discussion I believe there is good reason. This doesn't further our discussion of whether a person in possession of eternal life can lose it or not. But I have not dodged this at other times and am willing to meet it directly any time. The Bible declares man is dead in trespasses and sins. The Bible declares that Christ by himself purged us from our sins. The Bible declares faith to be a gift from God. The Bible declares that if we believe not he remains faithful and cannot deny himself. We do not make the declarations of God true because we possess or do not possess faith, nor do we because we believe or disbelieve.

You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.

Then in light of our surroundings I must tell you it appears we are in agreement. In this and all discussions here the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity of God. Faith is not something that we possess ourselves.

Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!

I do not understand this statement. I cannot think in these terms. We are discussing whether or not the faith a child of God possesses can be lost such that that person is eternally lost. I do not wish to offend you, but you give an appearance of attempting to shift the focus from God as the object of faith and attempt to win your argument by proving any loss of faith shows you to be right. Our focal point is faith in God that is possessed by a child of God and no other faith is considered for there is no other faith under discussion here. What you are discussing is belief. A sick person believes they are able to get better because they possess a measure of faith in their physician. A child of God believes he can get better because his/her faith is in God to work all things according to his will. The child of God does not know the ultimate will of God in these things but answers as the three Hebrew children thrown in the furnace whether or not He will or He will not, He is able to deliver us. Our discussion would be more fruitful if you would stay with the focus being upon faith in God. It is that which you are trying to prove can be lost and unless you prove that you cannot prove your argument. It is possible that I could fall away from my service to God and possible the brethren may lose confidence in me, but it is not possible to either destroy, lose or discard what God has worked in my heart.

So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith.

The argument of Total Depravity cannot be proved nor disproved apart from the acknowledgment that God must be the object of faith. This is impossible. You must prove that man is able of his own will, despite the degree of depravity he possesses, to engage in faith that validates the eternal purpose of God. Neither you nor I can accomplish this by arguing in any way that removes God from the focus of that faith. Can man have faith or believe his roof will not fall in on him as he sleeps in his bed each night? Yes, of course he can have this faith. Does this prove he can have faith in God? No. Because this proves only that he has faith in the workmanship of the carpenter that built his home.

I am sorry you think my posting of Craig's article was inappropriate or too verbose.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Whether or not we believe, God is always faithful because he cannot deny himself. That is, it matters not whether we believe, our belief or unbelief does not change God! God is not going to sit down and pout because joe schmuk refuses to believe in him. God made the way for our redemption, he is not going to stop being God if we do not accept that way.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

First I did not disagree with Craig, but I did say that his discussion starts with a lot of assumptions that are not necessary to the discussion of belief and faith.
This is a discussion forum in which 'assumptions' are that God is the object of faith, I don't understand your point about Craig's article here, elaborate.

The question that I asked you did not have to do with deity, but rather with humanity the way God made us. The questions that I asked you are:</font>

• what is belief?</font>
• What is faith?</font>
• What is the heart of man?</font>

They are simple questions that have relatively simple answers that any teenager who regularly attends Sunday School can answer correctly. They don't require verbose dissertations. The answers are important to this discussion, because they set parameters for explanations.

The question I have to ask you then, is it possible to have faith without belief? or Can faith exist without belief?

Yes. Faith can exist without belief. This is why Craig's article is relevant to this discussion he addresses this very question and does this from a Biblical position.</font>

Faith regardless of the object of the faith absolutely requires belief before faith can become a reality. You will NOT have faith until you believe that the object in which you have faith exists, and until you have a measure of trust that what you believe about the object of faith is reliable enough to satisfy your having faith in it.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As I said, the object of belief/faith is not necessary to arrive at the definition/relationship of either. In other words, it is not necessary to discuss God in order to discuss belief. Nor is it necessary to discuss God to discuss faith.

Craig's whole discussion is on the basis of a specific belief or faith in God. That is not necessary to arrive at agreement as to what belief or faith are.</font>

That is precisely why using Graigs text does not answer the questions. Craig does not take into consideration how God made man able and capable of having belief and or faith regardless of the object of that belief/faith. And you do not want to acknowledge God's finished creation either, because doing so destroys your belief in Total Depravity and the associated limitations that such belief imposes on God's finished creation, man.

The basis of this discussion is whether or not a child of God can lose their faith and find themselves lost again. Because this is the basis of the discussion God is central to the discussion if we are to arrive at any conclusion. The problem is that we must determine how we are going to establish why it is impossible for a child of God to lose this position. In my own words I have stated the nature of the gift of God is eternal. It is eternal life therefore its nature is determined by God and cannot be changed.

The scriptures say that human belief is what is required of the human in order to have eternal life. Therefore is it is essential that we understand human belief, which is the only variable in the equation of God's salvation of man. The ability to Believe is an attribute that God put into man in the creation, and by the very nature of that ability man can have it or not have it regarding any object. Again by the very nature of human belief, man can have belief in an object then change or lose that belief. Human belief is a transient that is always on the move as I tried to illustrate with the "green cheese moon" idea. There were many a man that actually believed the moon "could be" made of cheese. However the whole world knows now that the moon is made of essentially the same materials that the earth is made of. So the old belief in cheese has disappeared in the light of knowledge.

Yes, the Gift that God gives for our belief in His son is eternal life. God will not in any way change that gift it is forever. However the gift is given to those who have that belief in Jesus when this natural life is ended. Those who believe in Jesus will not be judged, because they have passed from death into eternal life with Christ. Those who do not believe in Jesus when this life is ended will be judged because they do not have that essential ingrededient that separates them from the unbelievers. The ingredient is belief in Jesus. Regardless of whether or not they once had that belief while living this life, if they do not have it when this life is ended, they will not receive the Gift of eternal life.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.

I stand on this as a Biblical fact: "man cannot believe nor possess faith except it has first been granted to him from God". You have continually returned to the argument of the original creation of man. What you miss in making your argument is that man had no need to possess faith or believe anything. God was very real to him. In his original condition man was not blinded by the sin nature. But he did not know the love of God nor the grace of God nor the Glory of God. The description you provide is agreeable to me concerning the first man. Now you must show why you do not believe Adam used his abilities to rebel against God rather than to obey his commands. When you do this remember you are attempting to prove man possesses the same qualities he possessed prior to the fall and provide scripture to support your findings that man is still in possession of the original attributes and in possession of the image of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Where in scriptures do you find that God changed his created man?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.

If I have dodged this in this discussion I believe there is good reason. This doesn't further our discussion of whether a person in possession of eternal life can lose it or not. But I have not dodged this at other times and am willing to meet it directly any time. The Bible declares man is dead in trespasses and sins. The Bible declares that Christ by himself purged us from our sins. The Bible declares faith to be a gift from God. The Bible declares that if we believe not he remains faithful and cannot deny himself. We do not make the declarations of God true because we possess or do not possess faith, nor do we because we believe or disbelieve.</font>[/QUOTE]Open your eyes Frogman, If sin blocked out the ability to belief or to have faith, there would be no civilization, there would be no democracy, there would be not Trade Centers to destroy and there could be no means to destroy. The trade centers were conceived and built on the basis of faith. They stood tall because of the faith of the builders, and they came down because of the faith of the destroyers.

If man has no ability to believe or have faith, none of man's achievements would exist. God, in creating man, gave man all the things that man would ever need to do what God said he should do. Man simply uses those capabilities to do "other than God's will". When man sinned, it was in accordance with God's plan for man. God made the garden with the trees in the center, God made the serpent, and lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer. The serpent and lucifer perhaps are the same entity. God cast Lucifer and his band of demons to the earth, the very place where God put man. There is no scripture that says that God altered his created man when he expelled them from the Garden. God cursed the earth so that man would have to toil to survive. He cursed the woman so that she would experience pain in childbirth. Adam did not know the meaning of work, nor did Eve know the meaning of childbirth but they found out. But there is no other scripture dealing with changes in man from Adam and Eve to now. All other scriptures dealing with man deal with the spiritual abilities that God placed in man from Adam and Eve. Sin corrupted those abilities such that man lost close fellowship with God who is spirit. Otherwise, man has not changed from Adam and Eve to modern 21st century man.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.

Then in light of our surroundings I must tell you it appears we are in agreement. In this and all discussions here the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity of God. Faith is not something that we possess ourselves.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you are once again ignoring how God made man.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!

I do not understand this statement. I cannot think in these terms. We are discussing whether or not the faith a child of God possesses can be lost such that that person is eternally lost. I do not wish to offend you, but you give an appearance of attempting to shift the focus from God as the object of faith and attempt to win your argument by proving any loss of faith shows you to be right. Our focal point is faith in God that is possessed by a child of God and no other faith is considered for there is no other faith under discussion here. What you are discussing is belief. A sick person believes they are able to get better because they possess a measure of faith in their physician. A child of God believes he can get better because his/her faith is in God to work all things according to his will. The child of God does not know the ultimate will of God in these things but answers as the three Hebrew children thrown in the furnace whether or not He will or He will not, He is able to deliver us. Our discussion would be more fruitful if you would stay with the focus being upon faith in God. It is that which you are trying to prove can be lost and unless you prove that you cannot prove your argument. It is possible that I could fall away from my service to God and possible the brethren may lose confidence in me, but it is not possible to either destroy, lose or discard what God has worked in my heart.</font>[/QUOTE]YES, I am discussing BELIEF; the sick person believes they should be well. That BELIEF grows into FAITH in the doctor and in the medications, and the attendents, etc., that aid them in becoming well once again. Whether or not the object of the sick person's faith is God, that sick person continues to have FAITH. And that sir, is my point, MAN IS CAPABLE OF BELIEVING AND HAVING FAITH OUTSIDE THE REALM OF SPIRITUALITY, God made it so, not I!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[James 1:23-25] Anyone who listens to the Word (James says "anyone who hears") and takes no action is like someone who looks at his own features in a mirror and, [24] once he has seen what he looks like, goes off and immediately forgets it.[25] But anyone who looks steadily at the perfect law of freedom and keeps to it, not listening and forgetting, but putting it into practice-will be blessed in every undertaking.

James knew that man can hear, believe, then forget, change belief, and fall away. James also clearly understood that those who do not "forget" receive blessing in every undertaking. James was speaking to Christians, believers, warning them of what can happen. </font>[/QUOTE]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[2 Tim 2:3-8] Bear with your share of difficulties, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. [4] No one on active service involves himself in the affairs of civilian life, because he must win the approval of the man who enlisted him; [5] or again someone who enters an athletic contest wins only by competing in the sports-a prize can be won only by competing according to the rules; [6] and again, it is the farmer who works hard that has the first claim on any crop that is harvested. [7] Think over what I have said, and the Lord will give you full understanding. [8] Remember the gospel that I carry, `Jesus Christ risen from the dead, sprung from the race of David';

Again, Paul, using three different examples points out that "success" does not come to those who drop out, fail to compete according to the rules. Why would Paul say that if there is "no possibility" for Christians to lose their faith?</font>[/QUOTE]

[Luke 12:41-48] Peter said, `Lord, do you mean this parable for us, or for everyone?' [42] The Lord replied, `Who, then, is the wise and trustworthy steward whom the master will place over his household to give them at the proper time their allowance of food? [43] Blessed that servant if his master's arrival finds him doing exactly that. [44] I tell you truly, he will put him in charge of everything that he owns. [45] But if the servant says to himself, "My master is taking his time coming," and sets about beating the menservants and the servant-girls, and eating and drinking and getting drunk, [46] his master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know. The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the unfaithful. [47] `The servant who knows what his master wants, but has got nothing ready and done nothing in accord with those wishes, will be given a great many strokes of the lash. [48] The one who did not know, but has acted in such a way that he deserves a beating, will be given fewer strokes. When someone is given a great deal, a great deal will be demanded of that person; when someone is entrusted with a great deal, of that person even more will be expected.

Jesus was not warning Peter that He alone should not become the wicked servant, but that ALL to whom the truth has been given must remain true and faithful to that truth until the Master returns, else he shall receive the just punishment. The truth in "to whom much is given much is expected", implies that man can fall away, or fail to meet expectations, and will receive judgement for doing so. There are more examples, but this is too lengthy anyway.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith.

The argument of Total Depravity cannot be proved nor disproved apart from the acknowledgment that God must be the object of faith. This is impossible. You must prove that man is able of his own will, despite the degree of depravity he possesses, to engage in faith that validates the eternal purpose of God. Neither you nor I can accomplish this by arguing in any way that removes God from the focus of that faith. Can man have faith or believe his roof will not fall in on him as he sleeps in his bed each night? Yes, of course he can have this faith. Does this prove he can have faith in God? No. Because this proves only that he has faith in the workmanship of the carpenter that built his home.</font>[/QUOTE]What this proves is that belief and faith reside in the human as part of what God put into the first human, and which has been handed down generation to generation. Beliefs change based on knowledge. God's word says, "For lack of knowledge, My people perish." God's word links belief/faith with knowledge. Because God knows all, God does not have as an attribute either belief or faith, as they are unnecessary in the light of knowledge. The Faithfulness of God has nothing to do with faith! Faithfulness in God is the eternal presence of God, the ever present helping hand, the trustworthy ability of God to do that which God has said he would do when man believes in Him. Man in his most vile state of sinfulness, can hear the word of God, the Gospel message, and can by hearing believe that there is a God who loves him enough to give His only begotten Son to save him. Man can accept that simple truth and believe it and thereby come to faith in Jesus Christ. Once man believes even that simple truth, the Holy Spirit indwells to shed the light of truth on all the mysteries of God that establish saving faith (permanent faith). But don't forget "the birds" (parable of the sower) that come along to pluck up those seeds of faith and prevent them from growing. Then there are the weeds, "the cares of life", that choke out faith and keep it from growing. And the trials by heat, when the faith that has started to grow gets withered and dies under the heat of criticism because it lacks food and water (knowledge). No, my friend, there are many enemies to faith in God and man can lose faith. Man can turn away of his own free will, thus taking his hand from the plow and turning back. That is what the scriptures say! Believe it or not!

I am sorry you think my posting of Craig's article was inappropriate or too verbose. [Tear]

Bro. Dallas [flower]

It is not that I doubt Craig's faith in God,nor is it that I do not agree with what he says, but rather that his position like your own ignores the way that God made man.

OSAS is TRUE, but only for those who come to faith and retain that faith through to the death of this natural life. It is when one passes from natural death having faith in God, that one enters into life in Jesus Christ. Without such faith, one faces the Judgement of God, and the second death of the Lake of Fire. That is what scriptures say!