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Yelsew
Guest
Once I am born into my family, there is NOTHING I can do about it no matter what I do. You can't unring a bell. </font>[/QUOTE]You've obviously lived a charmed life where strife and dissolusionment do not exist.
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Yelsew
Guest
Belief is perception! Your belief in God has its basis in your perception of God.
I, like you, have "unbelieved" a mountain of things that were previously believed to be true! Let's start with that childhood friend that we swore an oath with that we'd always stay in touch with, believing we would. Well where is that friend now? I haven't a clue if that person is still living, let alone where or how to communicate with him. I have no choice but to remember him, but if I passed him on the street, I would not recognize him nor he me. I'll bet you have former beliefs just like that.
When I was growing up a dominant "belief" was that the moon that circles this planet was made of cheese. As a kid I believed it because the adults assured me by "agreeing". That belief went by the wayside, debunked in the light of truth!
When I was a kid, the sound barrier was believed to be such that anything traveling faster than the speed of sound would be utterly destroyed when passing through it. Now we humans are working to develop machinery that will break the light barrier so that we can travel to distant planets, stars, and galaxies in deep space within a normal human's lifespan. When I was a kid the Jet Propulsion engine was just becoming a reality, and formerly believed limitations to travel have been debunked by the light of truth!
Yes Frogman, beliefs can and do change when confronted by the truth! Those who do not accept this simple principle remain locked in a "time-warp" and become paralized by their unchanging beliefs.
Faith in God and especially in Jesus, God's only son, is an evolutionary thing. It must change as more and more truth is revealed to you. No the object of the faith need never change, but one's perception of that object will change as more truth is revealed.
You are speaking of a change in perception. This is not the same as belief. If you believe God exists then you believe. If you believe God exists and you are quickened then you believe in Jesus the Son of God as having completely redeeming you from sin and reconciling you to God, then you are moving along a line you are growing in knowledge. But you made the point eloquently in noting the memory of your friend; yes, you may not recognize this person; but the memory is forever with you.
Dallas
Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
The ONLY memory I have is of a small boy whom I liked very much. I have no knowledge or memory of this person as an adult friend, we simply did not get that far.
No, I am talking about how our belief(s) change(s), and that belief is based on perception...the knowledge we gain, regarless of the source, about the object of our belief.
Belief evolves from not having belief to having initial belief (seed faith) to possessing sustained belief (faith that results in eternal life for the believer).
In some, somewhere between seed faith and mature faith, events occur that impact our perception leading to a change the direction and or scope of our faith. The Father of Lies, who is the master of deceit, covertly pulls the props right out from under one's faith in Jesus Christ, in the same manner that he deceived Eve then Adam into thinking they could become Gods. That of course does not change God, but it does change our perception of God. When that happens, one can lose faith and not have the foggiest hint of what happened. Our God is then remembered in the same manner that I remember my childhood friend, e.g. He was a wonderful little God.
Faith that is nurtured in truth continues to grow with our knowledge of God. Hense, "study to show thyself approved unto God..." With this kind of Growth, our faith does not remain the same as our initial faith, because it is now made strong by knowledge of God which God is all too eager to share with us. Even so, even the strongest faith is subject to testing by Satan. And God may very well allow Satan to test us in the manner that He allowed Job to be tested. Many will succumb to that form of testing and lose their faith in God. I personally know of 3 ordained ministers who were so tested, and two of them lost their faith in Jesus,the 3rd has been restored to a position in life greater than previously held.
So, yes there are those who lose their faith, and subsequently lose their salvation into eternal life.
Brother, According to the word of God you are speaking of those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
I disagree with you based upon what is found above.
Bro. Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
Brother, According to the word of God you are speaking of those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
I disagree with you based upon what is found above.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Then you disagree in vain, for that is what I've been saying. The scripture you posted does not say one cannot fall away or take his hand from the plow. It says they cannot be renewed if they do!
So, the scriptures even renounce OSAS! The scriptures allow that some will lose their faith and not have eternal life.
OSAS has an interesting parable as reference.
its the parable of the wine bottles.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
new "wine bottles" meaning that our old carnal spirit must be judged, placed into death and replaced with a completely brand new spirit before we become disciples and receive "knowledge" of Jesus Christ.
living "by faith" means just that.
our old spirit IS DEAD...and we have received a completely brand new RIGHTEOUS spirit from God that is within us today as we live "by this faith", of this "new spirit".
our old spirit didnt stay around as we are "renewed". our old spirit was destroyed. we have received a completely new spirit.
this is the same spirit the father imparts within us BEFORE we can hear his gospel and understand its message.
we get new wine bottles BEFORE we hear the good news.
its the parable of the wine bottles.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
new "wine bottles" meaning that our old carnal spirit must be judged, placed into death and replaced with a completely brand new spirit before we become disciples and receive "knowledge" of Jesus Christ.
living "by faith" means just that.
our old spirit IS DEAD...and we have received a completely brand new RIGHTEOUS spirit from God that is within us today as we live "by this faith", of this "new spirit".
our old spirit didnt stay around as we are "renewed". our old spirit was destroyed. we have received a completely new spirit.
this is the same spirit the father imparts within us BEFORE we can hear his gospel and understand its message.
we get new wine bottles BEFORE we hear the good news.
Yelsew,
If it is possible that what you say is true there will be no man in Heaven except the Son of God for we all have continued to sin since our quickening.
How can anyone receive a gift with a nature of eternal life and then lose that? The scripture calls the gift of God eternal life not possible eternal life.
Christ said he would not lose anything as you pointed out in another thread. How can he say this only to find out that one, two, three, or many have been lost?
Losing one's eternal salvation does not align with what eternal salvation is; however, losing temporal salvation (deliverance in time) fits into the discussion wonderfully.
Bro. Dallas
If it is possible that what you say is true there will be no man in Heaven except the Son of God for we all have continued to sin since our quickening.
How can anyone receive a gift with a nature of eternal life and then lose that? The scripture calls the gift of God eternal life not possible eternal life.
Christ said he would not lose anything as you pointed out in another thread. How can he say this only to find out that one, two, three, or many have been lost?
Losing one's eternal salvation does not align with what eternal salvation is; however, losing temporal salvation (deliverance in time) fits into the discussion wonderfully.
Bro. Dallas
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Yelsew
Guest
Me2,
The point is that we are given only one spirit, and we retain that spirit lest the flesh die, but that old spirit becomes a renewed spirit through the renewal process of believing and continuing faith.
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Frogman,
"Renewed" implies making the old new by restoration such as cleansing, polishing, overhaul, disassemble/reassemble, etc. Replacing implies throwing out the old replacing with NEW. "Washing of regeration" is "restoration of the old to a new condition. When we are born again, we do not receive a new spirit, our flesh could not handle that kind of transition because the spirit is the life of the flesh. If the old spirit is removed the flesh dies.
The point is that we are given only one spirit, and we retain that spirit lest the flesh die, but that old spirit becomes a renewed spirit through the renewal process of believing and continuing faith.
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Frogman,
Then for what purpose did Jesus die? Was it not to take the sins of the world upon himself, to "die in sin" so that sin could be buried for all time, then He arose victorious over sin and death. By believing that Jesus paid the penalty for each of our sins, we can rest assured that sin will not be held against us, and since as believers we will not be judged anyway (John 3:18), and since if we confess our sins he is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.(1 John 1:8-10). Paul said it this way,
True, however, Eternal life is actually given in heaven, but we have the promise of eternal life through our faith in Jesus Christ while we live this natural life that is limited to 120 years. It is appointed unto all men once to die then the judgment.(Heb 9:27) Since Jesus said that believers will not be judged nor cast into the lake of Fire the second death, we and take upon ourselves the mantle of eternal life. But it is our faith condition when we pass from this natural life and stand ready for judgement, that determines our eternal destiny. We stand ready for judgement, but because of our faith in Jesus, we are sheep separated from the goats. The goats get judged and cast into the lake of fire. The sheep go to be with their shepherd for eternity.
Again, where is the Christ? He is in Heaven, at the Father's right hand. When we die from this natural life we too find ourselves in the place of judgement, and it is our faith condition upon arriving there that determines whether or not we belong to Jesus. So between now and then through our own stupidity we could renounce or deny, or simply starve our faith in Jesus to death, so that when we die we do not have faith. We will then be seen as goats and separated from the sheep we will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Like I've been saying, we by faith believe we have eternal life in Jesus in accordance with Jesus' promise. We through our faith accept the promise that we have eternal life, when in truth that final determination is not made until our passage through the first death when our faith condition (the mark) will be revealed and we are separated sheep from goats. It is then that eternal life becomes a "KNOWN" factor. Until then we live by faith not by sight!
God makes the impossible, possible.
God has shown us our judgement day and has proven his promises whereas he has supplied us with a propitiator as we stand before him guilty.
he has declared our old spirit guilty of sin, yet he has allowed our souls to be joined with his sons resurrected spirit.
we have seen our own death, judgement and substitution By Jesus our Lord...BY FAITH.
we accept what he has done by faith....we have proof and the spirit within us is a living testimony of such facts.
for our eyes of understanding to become enlightened. we MUST receive this new spirit within us.
today we receive Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Proof that we have receive a new righteous spirit. by a Miracle.
an impossible action of our God that only by faith will we agree occurred.
we have encountered our first death.
the death of our old spirit.
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
another scripture...
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
or yet another...
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
these scriptures do not elude to jesus living and dying on earth in his own physical flesh.
It speaks of the believer receiving the spirit of Jesus within them. In their own bodies. just as the proof of a true believer. and that the "doctrine of christ" is that the spirit of christ is within the believer.
not trying to be mean spirited. just making a point.
We as sons of God must receive Jesus Christ Spirit to become adopted into Gods Spiritual Family.
Our Heavenly father deals in impossible faith.
He proves our complete inability to accept his capabilitites, of the impossible activities that we cannot begin to comprehend by our carnal minds.
to genuinely accept and understand Gods truth..
proves it has to be by faith.
Me2
God has shown us our judgement day and has proven his promises whereas he has supplied us with a propitiator as we stand before him guilty.
he has declared our old spirit guilty of sin, yet he has allowed our souls to be joined with his sons resurrected spirit.
we have seen our own death, judgement and substitution By Jesus our Lord...BY FAITH.
we accept what he has done by faith....we have proof and the spirit within us is a living testimony of such facts.
for our eyes of understanding to become enlightened. we MUST receive this new spirit within us.
today we receive Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Proof that we have receive a new righteous spirit. by a Miracle.
an impossible action of our God that only by faith will we agree occurred.
we have encountered our first death.
the death of our old spirit.
yelsew..your said it..by faith.
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
another scripture...
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
or yet another...
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
these scriptures do not elude to jesus living and dying on earth in his own physical flesh.
It speaks of the believer receiving the spirit of Jesus within them. In their own bodies. just as the proof of a true believer. and that the "doctrine of christ" is that the spirit of christ is within the believer.
not trying to be mean spirited. just making a point.
We as sons of God must receive Jesus Christ Spirit to become adopted into Gods Spiritual Family.
Our Heavenly father deals in impossible faith.
He proves our complete inability to accept his capabilitites, of the impossible activities that we cannot begin to comprehend by our carnal minds.
to genuinely accept and understand Gods truth..
proves it has to be by faith.
Me2
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Yelsew
Guest
And your definition of "Christ within you" is?
By what means does the spirit of Christ become "within you"?
By what means does the spirit of Christ remain "within you"
Yes, my friend, it is by your individual unwavering FAITH in Christ that you have his spirit within you. There is no other power under heaven whereby God or His Son enters into or indwells humankind. There is not one human that ever lived that cannot have faith. But there are many who do not have FAITH in God or FAITH in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah. It is because of God's grace that ye are saved THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourself, SALVATION is a Gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
Jesus paid for our sins, which we can repent from; and we cannot do enough to earn salvation. Leaving FAITH ALONE as the only means of SALVATION. Whether or not we have faith in God and Jesus is a matter that we each determine for ourselves.
With all the evidence and multimedia presentations and spectacular miracles that show the power of God in His great love for us, there are still great multitudes of people who refuse to believe in God by their own choice. They could just as easily by their own choice accept the evidence and be saved through faith. The real mystery is, WHY DON'T THEY?
[ September 09, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
By what means does the spirit of Christ become "within you"?
By what means does the spirit of Christ remain "within you"
Yes, my friend, it is by your individual unwavering FAITH in Christ that you have his spirit within you. There is no other power under heaven whereby God or His Son enters into or indwells humankind. There is not one human that ever lived that cannot have faith. But there are many who do not have FAITH in God or FAITH in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah. It is because of God's grace that ye are saved THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourself, SALVATION is a Gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
Jesus paid for our sins, which we can repent from; and we cannot do enough to earn salvation. Leaving FAITH ALONE as the only means of SALVATION. Whether or not we have faith in God and Jesus is a matter that we each determine for ourselves.
With all the evidence and multimedia presentations and spectacular miracles that show the power of God in His great love for us, there are still great multitudes of people who refuse to believe in God by their own choice. They could just as easily by their own choice accept the evidence and be saved through faith. The real mystery is, WHY DON'T THEY?
[ September 09, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
I have one question for you Frogman... Is the born again child of God still in his Total Depravity as he lives in the world?... Brother Glen
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Yelsew
Guest
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]By what means does one become a son, if not by FAITH ALONE?
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Yelsew
Guest
You use the phrase, but have yet to provide a dictionary style definition for it.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]By what means does one become a son, if not by FAITH ALONE? </font>[/QUOTE]The answer is provided in the Scripture quoted above.