OSAS and future sins?

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Thess. I write this on a whim and not from really thinking it out. If physically dead does not cause a "child" of a human to be not a child, then it is not wrong to say that if a true "child" of God would spiritually die, he would still be a child of God. That is just on a logic line. Keeps your anology within my framework.

Thess. I ask this sincerely. Which framework is more appealing to you?, just as a human. Putting scripture and "church" teaching aside. I ask this because I am evaluating my own "feelings" on the whole subject and trying to gain a perspective on "feeling" vs. truth (sometimes there is a conflict you know

).

In Christ,
Brian

Briguy, Thessalonian is correct in saying that one who is born of faith (spirit) can die and lose that faith. (The parable of the Sower, and the Parable of "one shall be taken the other left behind") Since being born of faith is being born into the "family of God", it is quite possible to be lost from the family by one losing one's faith (parable of the sower). Those lacking faith will also be left behind (parable of one shall be taken the other left behind.)

It is one's faith condition when departing this natural realm in death that determines whether or not one receives salvation, being sanctified with Jesus, or loss of life eternal by being cast into the Lake of fire.

If one lacks ongoing continuing faith in God, and his Son, the one is judged (John 3:18) If one has an ongoing continuing faith in God, and his Son, he is sanctified into the sheep fold with Jesus, and never judged, and certainly not cast into the lake of fire.

The only thing that differentiates between the sheep and the goats is the faith condition of the person when departing this temporal natural realm. Any and all other factors have been negated by God himself. He established that Salvation is NOT OF WORKS, and he sent HIS ONLY SON TO ATONE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. With works not a factor and sins atoned for, that leaves HUMAN FAITH, ALONE as the criteria for salvation.

Now your illustration of once a son always a son is true. Since God Created Adam and Eve, and since we all have life through Adam and Eve, we are all the children of God. That however is not the criteria for Salvation from the fallen condition.

 

[Yelsew]

David's adultery did not destroy his relationship to the Lord but it did bring on discipline from the Lord by way of the fact that 'the sword would always remain in his house.' David's salvation was not withdrawn because of his adultery. David did not say, 'Return unto me my salvation, but rather the Lord had him write these words, 'Return unto me the joy of my salvation.' No Christian can dabble in sin and have continued peace with the Lord God.

David's Adultery? What about murder? True Uriah was a soldier, but David caused him to be in harm's way thus assuring his death so that David could continue in his Adultery. Not to mention his Lust for Bath-Sheba, his covetousness (I must have my neighbor's wife), and his theft.

Again, Jesus atoned for the sins of even David! Thus sins are not held against man in Judgment! David's faith is what saved him just as Abraham's faith is what saved Him! Just as it is our faith that saves us!

Those who have faith in God, and his Son Jesus are saved from the lake of fire. Those who do not, are not! It is that simple.

Faith can be lost! Parable of the sower.
Faith may never be found! Parable of "one shall be taken..."

God made the way, but we must take the steps and endure to the end. Do we save ourselves? NO! God saves us, but He does not save those who lack faith in Him and or Jesus his Son! So we must do our part which is "to have faith, and keep it to the end of our natural lives...(endure to the end)" If we fail to keep the faith that we once gain, God will not save us from the lake of fire. Therefore we do have a part in our own salvation, we must keep the faith we once gained!

 

[thessalonian]

"The memory of our presumptious sins will deter us from continuing in a downward path. "

So it is not grace but the power of our minds and memories? Grace cannot stop us from sinning but the power of the mind can?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"The memory of our presumptious sins will deter us from continuing in a downward path. "

So it is not grace but the power of our minds and memories? Grace cannot stop us from sinning but the power of the mind can?

That is probably true since people who lack faith in God can, and do, repent from sinning under the power of their own will! But of course, it is all while God's grace prevails!

If God was not acting in accordance with his grace, He would be compelled to act in accordance with His JUSTICE! The wages of sin is death!

But then, If God acted in accordance with his Justice, that would negate the work of Jesus on the Cross which taketh away the sins of the world.

So while God's Grace prevails man can by his own choice repent from sinning certain sins such as homosexual activity, murder, fraud, etc.

That does not however make the one who repents, Holy. Holiness, righteousness, comes from spiritual cleansing by the Holy Spirit and not by repentance. And such cleansing by the Holy Spirit comes as the result of faith in, and submission to God.

 

[Ray Berrian]

So it is not grace but the power of our minds and memories?

My answer: That is what God speaking through the Prophet Jeremiah meant when he said,

'Thine own wickedness shall correct thee; and thy backslidings shall reprove thee. Know, therefore, and see tht it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God.'
[Jeremiah 2:19]

Grace cannot stop us from sinning but the power of the mind can?

My answer: 'Both His grace in our hearts/lives and our remembrance of the terribleness of our rebellion against the Lord, even in other areas, can keep us from walking further and further away from the Lord our God. Many other things can keep us close to the Lord. His indwelling of the Spirit in our lives is a continual Guide to love and follow Christ more fully. [I John 3:9]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Only faith in Jesus Christ saves our souls, and not merely for a period of time but forever. If we are not justified alone by our trust in His finished work on the Cross then our salvation depends on our works or 'keeping up the payments,' if you will. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

This does not detract from the truth that we will have good works that follow our faith. The Lord has determined that we maintain good works, but they do not have one ounce of weight in bringing about the salvation or the saving our souls. Ephesians 2:10 indicates that,

'We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.' [Ephesians 2:10]

If persevering in our faith must be achieved in order to gain everlasting life, then we have earned our own inheritance in the future life. God speaking through the Apostle Paul tells us that it is a 'gift' received, [John 1:12; 3:16] not an exploit of our human personality.

 

[Yelsew]

So it is not grace but the power of our minds and memories?

My answer: That is what God speaking through the Prophet Jeremiah meant when he said,

'Thine own wickedness shall correct thee; and thy backslidings shall reprove thee. Know, therefore, and see tht it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God.'
[Jeremiah 2:19]

Grace cannot stop us from sinning but the power of the mind can?

My answer: 'Both His grace in our hearts/lives and our remembrance of the terribleness of our rebellion against the Lord, even in other areas, can keep us from walking further and further away from the Lord our God. Many other things can keep us close to the Lord. His indwelling of the Spirit in our lives is a continual Guide to love and follow Christ more fully. [I John 3:9]

Ray it seems by your answer that you do not fully understand GRACE. Using the common definition of Grace, it is "unmerited favor", that is, Favorable behavior extended where none is earned. Let's apply that to humans. Your relationship with others is based on your favor, that is, your personal internal behavior towards others. Others do not earn a relationship with you, but you favor them by establishing and maintaining a relationship with them. That is grace. God extends his grace to everyone who is created in His image, and the world in which they live their temporal lives. We, who are made in His image are compelled from within ourselves to respond to His favor in the same manner that we respond to others who show us unmerited favor. (Note: favor does not equate to favorite).

While God is behaving in His Grace toward those of us, who are made in his image (All mankind), we are not subjected to God's Justice. If we were, our first sin would be our last....short life! We are instead permitted to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes, we are permitted to hear God's word from its source the Holy Scriptures. And we are permitted to believe or not believe in Jesus; who He is, The Son of God; and what He is, The Messiah. We are permitted to learn how we are supposed to live lives that are acceptable to the Heavenly Father from the Holy Scriptures enlightened by God's Spirit. As a species, man is also permitted to reject God, and His Son. ALL, WHILE UNDER GOD'S GRACE, that is, while God is behaving in accordance with His Favor toward his Creation.

Your Grace is not something that you can give to another, meaning that you can transfer ownership of grace from you to another. Why then do you think that God transferes his Grace to man? We do not receive grace, but we benefit from God behaving according to His grace.

[Quote}Only faith in Jesus Christ saves our souls, and not merely for a period of time but forever. If we are not justified alone by our trust in His finished work on the Cross then our salvation depends on our works or 'keeping up the payments,' if you will. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

This does not detract from the truth that we will have good works that follow our faith. The Lord has determined that we maintain good works, but they do not have one ounce of weight in bringing about the salvation or the saving our souls. Ephesians 2:10 indicates that,

'We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.' [Ephesians 2:10]

If persevering in our faith must be achieved in order to gain everlasting life, then we have earned our own inheritance in the future life. God speaking through the Apostle Paul tells us that it is a 'gift' received, [John 1:12; 3:16] not an exploit of our human personality.

Salvation is truly a gift given to those who have faith when they depart this temporal life. If one does not have faith, whether never gained, or gained and lost, there is no salvation.

If Faith is not a work, then Perseverence in faith is not a work, it is a condition of the sustainment of faith, it is holding on to the faith one has, it is continuation in faith. The opposite is losing the faith one gained, losing the hope of salvation, laying down ones faith and walking away, it is "giving up" in the face of trial.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Only faith in Jesus Christ saves our souls, and not merely for a period of time but forever. If we are not justified alone by our trust in His finished work on the Cross then our salvation depends on our works or 'keeping up the payments,' if you will. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

This does not detract from the truth that we will have good works that follow our faith. The Lord has determined that we maintain good works, but they do not have one ounce of weight in bringing about the salvation or the saving our souls. Ephesians 2:10 indicates that,

'We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.' [Ephesians 2:10]

If persevering in our faith must be achieved in order to gain everlasting life, then we have earned our own inheritance in the future life. God speaking through the Apostle Paul tells us that it is a 'gift' received, [John 1:12; 3:16] not an exploit of our human personality.

Round and Round we go

Ray,

You write your posts as if you think your teaching me something I don't know. I know your answers when I ask the questions. I could write your answers. I have heard the ephesians 2:8-9 excuse over 100 times and I reject it because it is proof texting and to do it you have to distort Catholicism.

You believe that faith resulting in repentence saves. So do we as a matter of fact. Ephesians 2:8 says by grace through faith you have been saved. That is exactly what we believe. We, past tense and present tense have been saved. We were not saved by works but by the grace of God. But what you refuse to admit is we are not saved by OUR faith either. We are saved by the faith that God brings about in us, thus Jesus said to Peter "flesh hath not revealed this to you but the father in heaven". Thus we come to faith through God's grace or we could claim a part of our salvatoin in coming to it. Faith is our cooperatoin with God and when we cooperate grace can work in us. This grace produces works, which in turn allow grace to work in us some more and produce more good works and more grace. It is the initial grace of justification that gets the ball rolling. That is a free gift from God, not given even as a payment for faith. But in response to our faith which God has given us in the first place. Now once we have been born anew by God's grace, we are born again. But our spiritual lives must be nutured and excercised just like our physical lives. That is where we part company. I say that the soul without this feeding (His Word in the Eucharist and Scriptures) and excercise (good works) can die. Just as we need food and excercise to have a healthy physical body we need the same for a spirtual body. God provides the food and God provides the motivation for the excercise. (ever notice how hard it is to get motivated to ride a stationary bike). God gives us the grace to do good works. Thus, they are not OUR works, but by his grace and through us. They are his works in us and through us. Paul says "it is not I, yet Christ lives in me". They are neccessary and without them we will in fact be a banging gong and a noisy symbol and will fall.

Blessing Ray

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Round and Round we go
I have heard the ephesians 2:8-9 excuse over 100 times and I reject it because it is proof texting and to do it you have to distort Catholicism.

Ephesians 2:8,9 "excuse?" Is that another word for unbelief. No wonder it is "round and round you go. You belief in Catholicism as you state; and Ray believes the Bible as he states. As long as you refuse to believe the Bible, and simply stick to "the Catholic line" you will never come to a knowledge of the truth. The very reason I left Catholicism is this very reason: Catholicism and the Bible are at odds with each other. They are diametrically opposed one with the other. You cannot be a sincere and knowledgeable Catholic and believe the Bible at the same time. It is impossible.
The Bible says about that: "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
Joshua said: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve."

There is an interesting thread on this very topic in the theology section. One of the members posted something like this. When you take all the verses of the Bible that seem to support the position that one could lose their salvation, put them into their proper context, rightly divide the Word of truth, you would find that there is not a single verse in the Bible that suggests that one could ever lose their salvation.
If you believe that salvation can be lost, then you truly don't understand what salvation is all about.
It is a very simple concept:
1. Once one is "born" into God's family ("You must be born again"), you become a child of God (Jon 1:12, a child that God will never, never disown (John 10:27-30), or disinherit.

2. Salvation is a gift of God.
It is received by faith and by faith alone.
It was bestowed upon us by the grace of God, and grace alone.
Therefore: "By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works."

If it is by grace; it is all of grace. There is nothing that you can do--absolutely nothing except to receive it by faith, and faith alone. Baptism won't work for baptism is a work. It is by grace--the grace of God--the work of God done on the cross for you and I freely given to us by God.
That work of Christ must be accepted by faith. It is a gift. There is nothing you can do. Christ paid the price; you pay nothing--no baptism, no sacrament, no nothing. Put your faith in Christ; that is all!
Catholicism or Eph.2:8,9
Catholicism or Christ--that is the choice.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

thessalonian,

I agree with let's say 90% of your post. Good preaching and also a fine explanation.

You said, 'I have heard the ephesians 2:8-9 excuse over 100 times and I reject it because it is proof texting and to do it you have to distort Catholicism.

Ray-I am not unnecessarily trying to knock down Catholicism. Thank the Lord for the areas where we agree as we hold up the Gospel to a lost and dying world. I am not proof texting things that seem to disagree with Catholicism. When we study the Bible we receive it as it comes to us in written form. Sometimes the truth disagrees with some Protestant thought. We have to bow to the Word in order to be corrected by it, so we can express a 'thus saith the Lord.' to the people.

Faith and presevering to the end of our earthly journey as Christians are not considered 'works' or 'good works' in the mind of God. I believe you expressed this thought in your post. I also agree with you that we must feed on the Word of God and also receive the strength received from partaking of the sacrament of Communion. The Word of God is our spiritual manna.

I do, however, believe that when Christ saves us it is forever; He does not do a part-time work of grace in our hearts. [Philippians 1:6]

In John 10 Jesus speaks of a people who have become sheep but never once places them back under the concept or wording of goats which is symbolic of sinners. Our Lord does speak of giving His sheep eternal life which is a final state of being without end.

John 10:28 uses ' . . . an emphatic double negative with second aorist middle (intransitive) subjunctive of {apollumi} to destroy.' [A.T. Robertson-Greek scholar] This verse gives the idea that all who are born from above will never, no never perish. The Lord may at times chide or strike us with His rod as our Shepherd but He will never push us over the cliff, if you will, into Hell. We are one with Him even as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are One. [John 17:11]

In the spiritual realm and kingdom those who receive Christ [John 1:12] are one with Him. Our human spirit is resurrected to life by His mighty Spirit. Thus, we have the words of God saying, 'But he who is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.' [I Corinthians 6:17]

If our 'talk does not match our walk' or if our 'good works' do not match our faith, we greatly weaken our testimony before the world. And as you said, we become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.' [I Cor. 13:1]

 

[Yelsew]

We are saved by the faith that God brings about in us, thus Jesus said to Peter "flesh hath not revealed this to you but the father in heaven".

Peter was very near graduation from the Jesus School of theology, and he was ready to receive his Commission as a leader in the Church that Jesus would build upon the truth of Peter's confession. Peter was eye-witness to nearly every event recorded in the Gospels, Luke and Acts. If it took that much to convince Him of who and what Jesus is, imagine what it takes for one who has not even seen the Gospels, to come to believe that Jesus is who he said he is, let alone place his faith in Jesus. It is not easy for one to come to faith in Jesus, then retain that faith to the end of this temporal life.

...Thus we come to faith through God's grace or we could claim a part of our salvatoin in coming to it. Faith is our cooperatoin with God and when we cooperate grace can work in us. This grace produces works, which in turn allow grace to work in us some more and produce more good works and more grace.

You just said in an earlier post that it is through faith, now you say it is through grace. The fact is our human faith sanctifies us, marking us for salvation. Salvation from what? The lake of fire which is the second death. If there is no second death, for what reason is there Salvation? Salvation into eternal life you say? That would prove there is a second death, giving a wonderful reason for Salvation. It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. Well that death is the first death.

It is the initial grace of justification that gets the ball rolling. That is a free gift from God, not given even as a payment for faith. But in response to our faith which God has given us in the first place.

Wrong! Justification is a Gift given to us by and through God while His Grace prevails and is in truth the purpose of the Christ's Atonement for the sins of the world!

Now once we have been born anew by God's grace, we are born again.

Wrong Again! It is by believing in Jesus that we are "born anew"!

...But our spiritual lives must be nutured and excercised just like our physical lives. That is where we part company. I say that the soul without this feeding (His Word in the Eucharist and Scriptures) and excercise (good works) can die.

It is by the words out of God's mouth that we are nurtured, not by what we put into ours.

Just as we need food and excercise to have a healthy physical body we need the same for a spirtual body. God provides the food and God provides the motivation for the excercise. (ever notice how hard it is to get motivated to ride a stationary bike). God gives us the grace to do good works. Thus, they are not OUR works, but by his grace and through us. They are his works in us and through us. Paul says "it is not I, yet Christ lives in me". They are neccessary and without them we will in fact be a banging gong and a noisy symbol and will fall.

But God does not do the exercise for us, We must do the exercise for our selves. God's work has been to provide us with the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, His only begotten Son who sacrificed himself as the atonement for our sin. God set his behavior to Grace in order that we might believe in Jesus, the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. When we believe in something or someone with great passion, there are no works that we cannot do for the object of our belief. The works that we do are our works done for the Praise and Glory of our Savior Jesus the Christ. It is not our works that Paul was saying makes us a "banging gong" it is our lack of love.

God does not "give", that is, transfer ownership and control, of his Grace. He tempers his behavior toward us in accordance with His Grace. He behaves toward us with unmerited favor by not meting out his justice upon us. Salvation therefore is a gift of God's Grace, for those who believe on His only begotten Son.

 

[thessalonian]

Yelsew,

There was so much more that we agree on in your last post than disagree on. Too bad you don't know it. I say Amen to your last paragrpaph. Yes we must do the work that God motivates us to. We are his hands, his feet, his eyes, his ears and his mouth. There is a son by John Michael Talbot. I believe the words are from St. Teresa. Here it is:

Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet, on earth but yours.
Your are the eyes through which He looks
Compassion on this world
Yours are the feet
With which He walks to do good.
Your are the hands
With which He blesses all the world
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet.
Yours are the eyes, you are His body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours
Yours are the eyes, through which He Looks
compassion on the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

I only have time for a couple of your points above:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the initial grace of justification that gets the ball rolling. That is a free gift from God, not given even as a payment for faith. But in response to our faith which God has given us in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Wrong! Justification is a Gift given to us by and through God while His Grace prevails and is in truth the purpose of the Christ's Atonement for the sins of the world! "


I guess I am missing your point here. How are we contradicting eachother? You deal with Christ's atonement providing for the grace. I am dealing with are we actually getting justification in response to ourselves or do we credit that response (i.e. faith) to God also. I agree as to where Grace comes from. It was earned on the Cross.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now once we have been born anew by God's grace, we are born again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Wrong Again! It is by believing in Jesus that we are "born anew"! "

I will admit that my wording is a bit awkward but are you saying that God's grace has nothing to do with our being born anew? By contradicting me you seem to be saying that it is our action of believeing that causes us to be born anew. I am making a distinction that perhaps you are not getting. I agree that believing in Jesus is what is the cause of being born anew. The distinction I am making is that even that is a grace from God won for us through Jesus atoning sacrifice.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thessalonian:
Round and Round we go
I have heard the ephesians 2:8-9 excuse over 100 times and I reject it because it is proof texting and to do it you have to distort Catholicism.

Ephesians 2:8,9 "excuse?" Is that another word for unbelief. No wonder it is "round and round you go. You belief in Catholicism as you state; and Ray believes the Bible as he states. As long as you refuse to believe the Bible, and simply stick to "the Catholic line" you will never come to a knowledge of the truth. The very reason I left Catholicism is this very reason: Catholicism and the Bible are at odds with each other. They are diametrically opposed one with the other. You cannot be a sincere and knowledgeable Catholic and believe the Bible at the same time. It is impossible.
The Bible says about that: "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
Joshua said: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve."

There is an interesting thread on this very topic in the theology section. One of the members posted something like this. When you take all the verses of the Bible that seem to support the position that one could lose their salvation, put them into their proper context, rightly divide the Word of truth, you would find that there is not a single verse in the Bible that suggests that one could ever lose their salvation.
If you believe that salvation can be lost, then you truly don't understand what salvation is all about.
It is a very simple concept:
1. Once one is "born" into God's family ("You must be born again"), you become a child of God (Jon 1:12, a child that God will never, never disown (John 10:27-30), or disinherit.

2. Salvation is a gift of God.
It is received by faith and by faith alone.
It was bestowed upon us by the grace of God, and grace alone.
Therefore: "By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works."

If it is by grace; it is all of grace. There is nothing that you can do--absolutely nothing except to receive it by faith, and faith alone. Baptism won't work for baptism is a work. It is by grace--the grace of God--the work of God done on the cross for you and I freely given to us by God.
That work of Christ must be accepted by faith. It is a gift. There is nothing you can do. Christ paid the price; you pay nothing--no baptism, no sacrament, no nothing. Put your faith in Christ; that is all!
Catholicism or Eph.2:8,9
Catholicism or Christ--that is the choice.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK,

I believe in the Bible. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[thessalonian]

Ray,

Thanks for the 90% rating. It's better than what DHK gave me. Oh well.

I only have a minute so all I will say is that I think many Protestants do the good that will help sustain them in this life. God of course is the final judge.

Blessings

 

[Briguy]

Ray and DHK, Great job on your posts.

Thess. and Yelsew, good job on yours as well.

Thess., Thanks for your honesty in saying that on a human level OSAS is the more appealing view. I have always felt that as well. I would like to think my theology is based on scripture and not feeling but I think "feeling" probably plays a small role in most peoples theological view.

Why would God not save us for all time?

Is lack of faith a sin? Can certain sin keep us from Heaven while others won't? Does the Bible really put a "badness" level on sin?

Can you lack faith for a season but still have faith enough to be saved?

Can lack of faith be cause for discipline rather then disownment?

Does not believing in OSAS cheapen or weaken the work of Christ on the cross?


I could go on and on. As I ponder the above I come back to my assurance based on a single act, done once in history but good for all time. I can only conclude that OSAS is the only fit for the Bible as a whole. It is logical and theological and appealing all rolled in to one. BTW, I didn't really write the questions above expecting an answer, though I'm betting a couple folks won't be able to resist.

I think we all agree that God has said for us to serve him by serving others and love him by loving others. What a world it would be if all people could operate on that level.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

Briguy,

Sorry, can't hep mesef. (help myself).

"Why would God not save us for all time?"

He has. But it must be his way in obedience. We must keep our eyes fixed on him. If we turn back we turn in to a pillar of salt so to speak. But guaranteed savation, especially when our act of faith itself is motivated by God. If guaranteed salvation were true then God would just give everyone the grace of faith and they'd be done. But from my perspective this fact that God motivates our faith and yet we can loose our salvation if we do not persevere in hope, makes alot more sense as to why everyone does not "get saved" and stay saved. Do you believe that the initial act of faith is of your own doing or that God gave you the grace to do it?

"Is lack of faith a sin?"

Sin is a lack of faith.

" Can certain sin keep us from Heaven while others won't? Does the Bible really put a "badness" level on sin?"

Interesting question since I hear it denied in one breath on Protestant radio while in another breath I hear the same guy saying tobacco isn't as bad a sin as homosexuality since the Bible doesn't say anything about tobacco. I can't however see how God could equate smoking a cigarrette with killing inocent children. I have also pointed out on this board lately that Protestants decry killing while ignoring the commandment not to bear false witness. No, I think the commandments are definitely showstoppers when done in a willful disobedient manner. The problem with lesser sins, say lusting after a woman is that it leads to the showstoppers.Reason I think dictates that there are levels of sin. Protestantism rejects it because it is Catholic. This is why we are so opposed on so many issues.

"Can you lack faith for a season but still have faith enough to be saved?"

Well if you lack faith for a season and there are alot of trucks running the highways and you get hit by one, I can't see how it could be good.

"Can lack of faith be cause for discipline rather then disownment?"

Are you saying we can go to heaven without faith if we have had it at some point in our lives? I hope not.

"Does not believing in OSAS cheapen or weaken the work of Christ on the cross?"

It certainly does if you say what the words above imply. The work of Christ on the Cross is for our growth in holiness. OSAS gives man a cavalier attitude toward sin. So yes it does.

" done once in history but good for all time. "

Christ's sacrifice continues today in an unbloody manner in the Mass. It is one sacrifice in history and certainly good for all time (even in the OT for they look forward to it). The difference between you and I is that I see grace as substantive (and so does the Bible for it speaks of growing in grace). I also see grace in many and varied forms. All of it earned by Christ on the Cross for us. All of it to help us in the race of life. When protestants slam works, calling them filthy rags that tells me there is something wrong with the system that prompts such thought. It is an insult to God to not see his grace in the faith that motivates us to repentence and baptism and then to good works throughout our lives. It is a slap in the face to him when someone says "I am saved" yet does not drink from the fountain of life daily and walk with him, neglecting the widow and the orphan, which is what God really wanted in the OT anyway. (see Is 1). OSAS removes motivation from men to be the eyes and ears and hands and feet and mouth of God (see post to Yelsew for St. Theresa's words).

I appreciate your thoughts but they lack depth.

Oh, by the way, many things are more appealing to me if I go by my fleshy desires. I could eat Big Macs all day long but God says know. So I think your point of what is most appealing to me is a rather moot one. OSAS is not scriptural, historic, or true. The believer in it is under the sin of presumption. God will be the judge of if this is willfully and knowingly so or not. I pray for you that it is not . But if it is that God grants you the grace of repentence.

Blessings.

 

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Clarificaion. OSAS is presumptuous because it presumes upon God's mercy at the expense of his justice. It fails to recognize that he gives us the grace such that we "must not sin". He gives us the grace to repent (his mercy) if we do. He gives us the grace to cleanse our souls when we repent (his mercy). He gives us the grace to keep from falling in to sin again. I have proven about "in time of temptation he will always give you a way out" that we can resist grace at any time. If we do it and sin without repentence it is our own fault and justice will prevail. This of course makes future sins forgiven today nonsensical.

Sorry if any of this seems blunt. God is your judge. I ask his mercy on you and I.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Here is (one of) the verse that makes forgiveness of future sins at the point of our first being saved ridiculous.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Grace is provided so that we may resist sin. If we sin (do not endure) it is our own fault. But OSAS says, "ah don't worry, it's already forgiven". This makes a mockery of God's grace.

Blessings

 

[DHK]

Thessalonian,
What do you mean when you speak of "lack of faith?" When speaking of salvation, faith is not a commodity that one has that can be measured by any standard. Either you believe or you don't. It is not a question of having enough faith.
"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life."
It is an either/or proposition. Either you do or you don't. Either you believe or you don't. There is no such thing here about having enough faith or a lack of faith in the context of salvation.
If you disbelieve the sacrifice of God's Son, Jesus Christ, you will face certain condemnation and go to Hell. There will be no second chance.
If you believe in the sacrifice of Christ to atone for your own personal sins (past, present and future), you receive the gift of eternal life and will go to Heaven. It is guaranteed. God does not lie. It is an either/or proposition. Either you reject it or receive it.

Marriage is forever. It is "until death do us part." My personal belief on marriage is that though man divorces and remarries, God still considers that man married to his first wife. Though, in reality, he cannot undo what he has done, the Bible clearly says he lives (in God's sight in a state of perpetual adultery). Marriage is one of the holiest institutions in God's sight. Here is what the Bible says on it:

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Now apply this to salvation. When you are saved you become part of the bride of Christ. Every time you would lose your salvation you would be committing adultery. Christ will not be presenting a harolt to himself at the marriage supper of the lamb.

Eph.5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Christ will present a bride that is a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The only way that can be accomplished is that once I am saved, I am saved forever. My sins are blotted out forever. I am washed in the blood of the lamb. When God looks down on me; he no longer sees the sinful DHK, but rather sees the the righteousness of Jesus Christ that covers DHK. He doesn't see his sin, for his sin has been atoned for. It is buried in the depths of the sea, to be remembered no more. As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed my transgression. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--no not any. I am part of that bride that Christ will present to Himself in that day--without spot, wrinkly or blemish. A pure bride, unblemished by sin. The sins are all gone. They are all under the blood--past, present and future. That is the essence of OSAS.

I was married some twenty years ago. I am absolutely positive that I am still married.
I was married to Christ, and became part of His bride some thirty years ago. I am absolutely positive that I am still part of that bride.
I don't doubt my earthly marriage, though I have wronged my wife. Why should I doubt my Heavenly marriage thought at times I have wronged Christ, my bridegroom.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

OSAS gives man a cavalier attitude toward sin.

Ray-I used to milk that concept until the Word of God made me give up on what I had been taught in my youth. Actually, taking advantage of grace become repugnant because we then know that those very sins placed Christ on the Cross for our redemption. Is it possible to dabble in sin after coming to know Christ. Yes. No one who does this will enjoy living out of fellowship with the Lord; and to continue in this mind set will only bring on the chastening of our Almighty Lord. It is not a pleasant experience. Roman 6:1 indicates that we can continue to sin after we have found Christ or have been found of Him. Paul is saying, "Just because we are saved and just because grace is greater than all of our sins, does not give us the right to continue in sinning. Christ died to take away our sins, [I John 2:2] and to keep us from sinning. [Matthew 1:21] ' . . . He shall save His people from their sins.' Because we are living in a state of grace, ' . . . sin will not have dominion over us because we are under the protection of His grace.' [Romans 6:14] Because He has justified us [Romans 5:1] ' . . . we are made free from sin . . . . we have our fruit unto holiness, and in the end, everlasting life.' [Romans 6:22]

There is clearly more danger if the child of God views himself or herself as a 'latch-key kid' in relation to his or her heavenly Father, than children of God who understand and inwardly know that the Lord loves us with an everlasting love. You are the apple of His eye. [Deuteronomy 32:10;*Psalm 17:8; Zechariah 2:8c] The later verse is speaking of Israel as a nation but in a similar sense, Christians are the 'new {spiritual} Israel', --the Israel of God, the new creation [Galatians 6:15 & II Corinthians 5:17] the apple of His eye. [Zechariah 2:8c]

Children of God who know and love Jesus who believe in the absolute security of the believer, will agree that eternal security bonds them even closer to our Lord.