OSAS and future sins?

[Briguy]

Ray, Great job again and good questions.

Thess. are you not answering the last couple things because you are stumped?

Look at Titus 1:15 in context. KJV

10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
[12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
[13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
[15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Thess., Am I missing something here? This passage is meant for jewish unbelivers. By unbelievers I mean that they haven't placed trust in Christ. They are however God believers and followers of the Law. The applicaton for us starts in the first part of the chapter, not included above, that talks about sound doctrine and being an elder/overseer. The part of the scripture I included shows what is happening and the deception being taught which the TRUTH is up against. The evidence of the deception is the life that does not show fruit, the idea of denying Christ by our works. I could take this further but I think you see the point I am making. Thess. I have said before that quoting one verse at a time usally does not help an argument.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[thessalonian]

"Thess. are you not answering the last couple things because you are stumped?"

Why Brian after all those times I waited days for you to reply with no statements of bravado such as this. You should no better Brian. You should know by now I don't post much on weekends. I would think by now that you would have learned that we always have answers for your false understandings of scripture. Of course I have learned that every Protestant who sees things differently than other Protestants (i.e. Bob Ryan vs. you is a good example, hardly peas in a pod of unity) has contorted every scripture such that there is an "answer" (to use Bob's notation) for "everything". I will post and you and Ray will rebut because you are blind to the true teachings of scripture. god's (little "g") welfare program for those who do not want to preach the message of "take up your cross and follow me daily" will be maintained at all costs just as the welfare program of the United States will be maintained even though it removes charity from mens souls. It is a message that appeals to the human mind but it is not the message of the Gospel. The message of the Gospel is to keep your eye's fixed on Jesus and he will help you overcome those sins that OSAS says that you can remain in and God will just take you home early. Once again NONSENSE! Your message of hope turns out to be one of despair. God cannot help you out of this pitiful life so he takes you early, having to face him at the door of the pearly gates knowing that you have not turned from your sins. "if you love me keep my commandments" he says and you say it is possible to enter heaven without loving the way that God commands us. Sad. Very sad.

I have always answered your false teachings. I will when I have sufficient time to deal with it adequately. That you see everything ray says is more a function of the framework of the false traditions of Protestantism that have been planted in your mind. I say this not in judgement but in love and concern for your soul and that of those that you lead astray with your traditions of man.

You are in my prayers.

Blessings

[ September 15, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[A_Christian]

I is impossible for man to overcome sin through
works. The Holy Spirit does the Work through those
saved of GOD. The saved of GOD were not saved
through the work they did.

 

[A_Christian]

Matthew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have
WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name
have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?"

And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[NOW, WHAT IS MISSING------WE DO THIS AND WE DO
THAT-----WE DO LOTS OF THING IN YOUR NAME, JESUS.
SEE WHAT WE DID! WHAT IS MISSING?]

Did they ask Jesus to save them and become Lord
of their life--------look again----it's all
WORKS!

 

[thessalonian]

Brian,

In retrospect, my last post was a bit harsh. Please accept my apologies.


blessings.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
I is impossible for man to overcome sin through
works. The Holy Spirit does the Work through those
saved of GOD. The saved of GOD were not saved
through the work they did.

A_Christian:

Which works are you talking about? Those that we do of our own power? Those are as filthy rags. But those that we do in and through the grace of God and out of love for him. Now those are powerful works. I would not dare call them filthy rags. I would never say there was no power in those works. For virtue conteracts vice.

Matthew 13:8
"And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.



Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Ephesians 3:19-21
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Surely without him we can do nothing good but with him our faith can move mountains. Yet we do not boast of these things because they are his work in us. If we did not follow him we would be only about doing evil in the world. That is why it is so neccessary to root sin out of our lives.

Blessings

 

[A_Christian]

The person that is saved has the WORK accomplished
through him and to him by the Holy Spirit. So it is what GOD does through us and not what we do
that counts.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
The person that is saved has the WORK accomplished
through him and to him by the Holy Spirit. So it is what GOD does through us and not what we do
that counts.

We agree I think. That is exactly what I am saying. Or do you disagree with Paul and James?

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Romans 2
7To those who by PERSISTENCE in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he WILL give eternal life.


Thx


Blessings

 

[Ray Berrian]

thessalonian,

You said, 'God cannot help you out of this pitiful life so he takes you early, having to face him at the door of the pearly gates knowing that you have not turned from your sins.

Your post was quite close to what we believe. Our Lord has some delinquent children of God who are careless in their Christian life and of their eternal relationship with Him. [I Corinthians 6:17] When they are becoming a problem to Him He takes them home to be with the Lord prematurely. When their behavior greatly, detracts in that they have formally identified with the Christian faith, He steps in with His Providence and takes them off this planet, so they do not hinder other sinners from finding the Lord or by leading other Christians away from their closeness to the Lord.

We do not select a doctrine and then try to bolster it with Scripture. We begin with Scripture and then have built a Christian doctrine around said truth. Thessalonian, repeated denials are not even considered by your brethren as wise exegesis. Give us your best interpretation of I Corinthians 11:25-34, with special emphasis on verses 30-32.

You speak of ' . . . our traditions of men' without reviewing your system of theology that offers the views of the Magisterium, the men of whom also are not yet in their glorified bodies. In fact their-of this world 'traditions' are formally presented to the Catholic world in such a way that the tradition supercedes even the words of our Lord. For example, the priests are not allowed to marry, while the Lord says that 'the bishop is to be the husband of one wife.' At least He gave the clergy a choice; the pope refuses to abide by what Christ has and is teaching. [I Timothy 3:2]

If a genuinely saved person were finally to become lost and escorted off to Hell, then Satan would have become wiser and mightier than our Lord. That is why the Greek clearly indicates that the real Christian cannot go beyond the limit where the Lord will disown him.

Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, the Greek scholars says, that the word, 'toucheth' is {hapto} and that it is in the middle and passive voice. It means to grasp or to lay hold on. 'Smith says, "There is no comfort in the thought that we are in our own keeping; our security is not in our grip on Christ but His grip on us." (Kenneth S. Wuest, "In These Last Days" William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, II Peter through Jude, p. 183. Dr. Wuest's Expanded Translation reads this way.

'But He who was born out of God maintains a watchful guardianship over him, and the Pernicious One does not lay hold of him.'

The other renowned Greek scholar is Dr. A.T. Robertson and he says in his Word Pictures of the New Testament, Broadman Press, Volume VI, p. 245,

'Touchest him not' present middle indicative of hapto, elsewhere in John only John 20:17. It means to lay hold on or to grasp rather than a mere superficial touch. Here the idea is to touch to harm. The Devil cannot snatch such a man from Christ.'

John chapter 10:27-29 indicates the complete supervision of the Lord over His true flock.

I would be most interested in what your scholars say about I John 5:18. If you have time please give us their quotes. And also the historical interpretation of I Corinthians 11:30-32 would prove helpful to both of us.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Not all of the Lord's people stand before Him in pristine purity. [I John 2:28]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I just posting this at the library.

I didn't know there is also another thread topic discuss on osas. I just found out 2 days ago, I saw the latest 20 posts list on the front of Baptistboard introduction.

My computer is repairing right now. When my computer will be ready this week, I will discuss on this.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Briguy]

Hey Thess. No apologies needed and your post was not that harsh. You have a lot of passion for what you believe and that is a good thing. I respect you and understand why you wrote what you wrote. My post this morning was not put in a very nice way either so I kind of started the ball rolling down the hill. Please accept my apologies as well.

You mentioned rooting out sin (I think that’s how you put it) in your post to A. Christian. We had a great message yesterday at church on Romans 6 and 7. It was just an overview before our Pastor gets in depth with the two chapters. What he stressed though was that we all struggle and sin. We as Paul, don’t do as we should and do what we don’t want to do. We will struggle with sin as long as we have flesh. God won’t reject from coming into heaven because we have sin because there is no way around having sin. We fight it yes, but we give way, O what wretched men we are Thess. But Jesus died so that the wretched, through Him may attain Heaven. This to me is just another reason I believe in OSAS.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Once again NONSENSE! Your message of hope turns out to be one of despair. God cannot help you out of this pitiful life so he takes you early, having to face him at the door of the pearly gates knowing that you have not turned from your sins. "if you love me keep my commandments" he says and you say it is possible to enter heaven without loving the way that God commands us. Sad. Very sad.

I have always answered your false teachings. I will when I have sufficient time to deal with it adequately. That you see everything ray says is more a function of the framework of the false traditions of Protestantism that have been planted in your mind. I say this not in judgement but in love and concern for your soul and that of those that you lead astray with your traditions of man.

You are in my prayers.

Blessings

Who has the hope, and who has the despair? When in the Catholic Church I found nothing but despair. Prayers for the dead, Masses for the dead, praying loved ones out of purgatory, doing penance, etc. The Catholic religion is a religion of fear that takes away the joy from its followers, causes them to live in despair, and gives them no hope or assurance of eternal life.

"God cannot help you of your pitiful life" as long as you continue to adhere to Catholic doctrine which is directly contrarty to what the Bible teaches.

"You will face God at the pearly gates," or more accurately at the "Great White Throne Judgement, unless you are born again, as Jesus commmands. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). As long as you believe that to be born again is to be baptized or includes baptism, you are not born again, and thus will not enter God's Kingdom.

In John 14:15,21,23, three times does Jesus say: If you love me keep my word; if you love me keep my commandments; He that hath my commandments and keepeth them he it is that loveth me. The great demonstration of one's love is his obedience to Christ; not his obedience to the Catholic Church or the priest--but his obedience to Christ. We obey Christ by obeying His Word. Not tradition, but HIs Word; not the Church Fathers; but His Word. We obey Christ by obeying His Word. If you love me keep my Word.

The reason that Brian and Ray (and myself) are in agreement so much of the time (though never having met each other--and all are not Baptist, and all are not Protestant), the reason we agree is that we study the Bible. Independent Bible study will still lead to the same conclusions if you put aside YOUR TRADITIONS which of course you have not.
This statement:

That you see everything ray says is more a function of the framework of the false traditions of Protestantism that have been planted in your mind.

is a false statement.
We do not work out of a framework of traditions at all. We work out of a framework called the Bible. That is our only framework of reference. It is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. The framework is the Bible. It is only the Catholics the rely so heavily on traditions. I don't know many Baptists that rely on tradition.
DHK

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Thess. I have no time to post these days but I wanted to point out that I have never said that my sins don't matter because there paid for anyway. I've never as a Christian not taken my sins seriously, at least in the sense where they bother me and i want to do something about them. The verse pointed out above fits the OSAS syatem better then yours. You know that as evidenced by the playdough molding you did with it to make it fit your side. Those who would say "i'll just do this or that because I'm saved anyway are more then likely those that Jesus will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU", to. I suppose it is possible a backslidden or distrought Christian could say what you said but it would be a rare thing.

Thess. what do you do with Job? He was "perfect" so the KJV says yet he cursed the day he was born. He was a perfect God-fearing man who struggled. Was he unsaved when he was upset? I think not.

Take care, Hope you and yours are well!

In Christ,
Brian

I find your use of job rather amusing. Why? Well because if I remember right the discussions before about OSAS and the Old Testament, when I brought up Ez 18:24 which clearly teaches loss of salvation, the response was "oh well that was in the Old Testament. Now things are different and yet when it suits the arguement things aren't really different supposedly." Now perhpas it was someone else making these arguements. It is so difficult to determine what one protestant believes over another even if there in the same denomination. I do wonder if any of you believe that Adam actually fell from grace or if it was just a minor stubbing of the toe.

Down below somewhere you talk about your pastors sermon on Romans and how we are just going to end up sinning for sure no matter what. If it is inevitable then how come job could be "perfect" as your KJV says. Further, I thought the big thing against Mary being without sin was that verse in Romans that said there couldn't be any perfect people.

Romans 3:10
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Once again, your arguements. Once again they are not consistent. Was Job unsaved when he was upset? Where does it say that he was? Where does it say he was not? In what sense was he or was he not? Could he have fallen from grace at that point in his dispair. I can't answer that question because I am not the judge of all men. What do you base your idea that he was still saved on. Does he himself say it anywhere like you guys do? "all this is happening to me but I am eternally secure". v. 19:16 (among others) harly sounds like a man secure in his own salvation or deluded in to think he is secure. From my perspective v. 42:6 is the key: "Therefore I disown what I have said , and repent in dust and ashes.". Why the dust and ashes I ask. Why not just a little I am sorry God if his sins are already forgiven anyway? Sorry Brian, Job is hardly the example of a OSAS Christian who knows that he is saved all along. The Catholic view is not that one is not predestinned to be saved. God knows who will and won't be saved. But your dreaming if you think Job knows all along that he is predestined to glory. That is determined by the walk with Christ and with perseverence which to you guys is a head nod about a name and a sinners prayer and it's over.

Blessings.

 

[Ray Berrian]

thessalonian,

You said, ' . . . which to you guys is a head nod about a name and a sinners prayer and it's over.'

Was your faith only a head nod and a sinners prayer? Probably not. That trusting belief in Jesus and sinner's prayer brings us into a relationship with Jesus Christ. A relationship with Him is forever and not a decision with no commitment or following Christ in discipleship.

All of the apostles followed Christ faithfully except Judas, and the Bible says that he was ' . . . a devil,' hardly words for a saved soul. [John 6:70]

 

[thessalonian]

"Ray is saying, 'In Hebrews chapter twelve the author is telling the church that only and all Christians received chastisement at times in their lives. We are considered by God and the author of the Book of Hebrews as 'sons and daughter' of God, if we have received Christ. "

Please remember what you say "only and all Christians recieved CHASTISEMENT..." when we get to the bottom.

Oddly enough I look at Hebrews 12:5-8 and in no version do I see the word only. It does say he disciplines his children.

Hebrews 12:6
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

v. 9 is an affirmation of this discipline.

Are not the sparrows needs taken care of by God.
Doesn't the sun shine on the good and the bad. Yet the wicked men who are not children of God do not recognize this as from God.

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


No the Lord's chastisement is for all so that they may be humbled before him and become children of God.

Wisdom of Solomon 1:8
Therefore he that speaketh unjust things cannot be hid, neither shall the CHASTISING judgment pass him by.

Wisdom of Solomon 12:2
And therefore thou CHASTISETH them that err, by little and little: and admonishest them, and speakest to them, concerning the things wherein they offend: that leaving their wickedness, they may believe in thee, O Lord.

Note the belief comes after the chastisement. No God chastises all. To the good it is discipline for they are children of God.

 

[Frogman]

you failed to discuss the fact that Heb. 12 distinguishes between those who recognize this chastisement as being sons and daughters while all others are certainly not described as legitimate children, nor is there any mention that they will become or even may become so upon being humbled through the chastisement.

In fact, the scripture teaches they will continue and increase in their rebellion against God. Thus remaining illigetimate through eternity.

Bro. Dallas

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Briguy:
[QB] Ray, Great job again and good questions.

Thess. are you not answering the last couple things because you are stumped?

Look at Titus 1:15 in context. KJV

10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
[12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
[13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
[15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Thess., Am I missing something here? This passage is meant for jewish unbelivers.

Brian,

I am playing a bit of catchup because you guys have asked many questions and I have limited time. Yes, you missed my point entirely with the 1 Titus verse. My point in that verse was just that defiled men do not believe and do not go to heaven. I was using that verse in conjuction with Hebrews 12:15 that clearly shows that men can become defiled by the wicked. "bad company corrupts good morals" as the proverb says. This is exactly what Pauls warnings in Titus 1 point out also. That is why the circumcision Christians must be SILENCED. So that they do not corrupt the ones in Christ and separate them from the flock.


Hope that helps.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Frogman:
you failed to discuss the fact that Heb. 12 distinguishes between those who recognize this chastisement as being sons and daughters while all others are certainly not described as legitimate children, nor is there any mention that they will become or even may become so upon being humbled through the chastisement.

In fact, the scripture teaches they will continue and increase in their rebellion against God. Thus remaining illigetimate through eternity.

Bro. Dallas

More FRUITS of Protestantism. My post was exactly that those who recognize it are sons and daughters. That was my whole point. Thanks for agreeing that it is God's chastisement. As for those who are humbled still not becoming children of God....

Matthew 23:12
".... and whoever HUMBLES himself shall be exalted."

I am curious. Aren't all Christias supposed to get raptured, leaving the unregenerate chidren of God on earth (according to your theology). Then the tribulation is supposed to occure, converting the Jews and others. Seems like this flys in the face of your post.

 

[Ray Berrian]

"Ray is saying, 'In Hebrews chapter twelve the author is telling the church
that only and all Christians received chastisement at times in their lives. We
are considered by God and the author of the Book of Hebrews as 'sons and
daughter' of God, if we have received Christ."

Thess is saying, Please remember what you say "only and all Christians recieved
CHASTISEMENT..." when we get to the bottom.

Oddly enough I look at Hebrews 12:5-8 and in no version do I see the word
only. It does say he disciplines his children.

Ray is saying, 'Your above statement says that ONLY and ALL Christians receive chastisement are not to be found in Hebrews chapter twelve. These two words are a summary of what 12:8 indicates that ALL Christians, sons and daughters of God receive His discipline. Bastards are illegitimate sons and are without Divine discipline.



Thess is saying, Are not the sparrows needs taken care of by God.
Doesn't the sun shine on the good and the bad. Yet the wicked men who are
not children of God do not recognize this as from God.

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His
sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the
unrighteous.

Ray is saying, 'Matthew 5:45 has nothing to do with Divine discipline/judgment in the lives of those who are His people. On the contrary, Matthew is talking about God's gracious actions even toward those who remain in rebellion against Him including the people of God.'


Thess. is saying, No the Lord's chastisement is for all so that they may be humbled before
him and become children of God.

Ray is saying, 'The Lord may box in sinners as He endeavors to woo them to Himself and His salvation, true enough, but the Lord God is still dealing with people who are apart from His grand plan of eternal salvation. Chastisement is a unique move that God makes on His people.

The remaining verses that you used to try to prove your point are extra-Biblical, non-canonical books of your Bible and are a prime example as to why non-Catholics reject your apocryphal writings. Hebrews twelve says that only sons of God through faith receive chastisement, while your spurious books say saints and sinner receive discipline. Here is a clear contradiction in terms and definitions.

The test of authority requires a lawgiver, prophet or recognized elder under the Old Covenant and an apostle or recognized person known to an apostle was required in order to make a book of the true Bible canonical. Your apocryphal books fall short of this requirement. Your spiritual bar is much, much lower than our requirements. When your add on books contradict other passages of Scripture we have no other choice but to watch the chaff blow away and recognize the wheat that remains on the canonical floor.

These apocryphal books is where you come up with purgatory, all documented from your counterfeit and deceptive books of the Old Testament vintage. In the case of 'purgatory' it is in conflict with the Biblical view of the Judgment Seat of Christ as found in II Corinthians 5:10 and other N.T. portions of the Word of God.

We value our souls and those who follow our guidance rather than believe such contorted and bogus books of the Roman Catholic Bible.