OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

[BobRyan]

As you can see, the SDA has no peace that their soul is guaranteed safe and sound resting in Jesus Christ alone. The only comfort they can give themselves is generated from themselves, convincing themselves they are following enough commandments which their church has told them are necessary for their "path of salvation". So where does the SDA's hope in salvation lie? It is in themselves and in the SDA church, how many commandments are they keeping, for to stop keeping the SDA Sabbath, as this SDA follower here has said, "that would not be the path of salvation - that would be rejecting the Word of God".

Abuse and misapplication of the Scriptures is rampant within these organizations. You will see them post reference after reference, flooding the board with God's precious Word, but it is done in vain, Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

So salvation is either a gift of God or it is something of yourself that you work towards. Ask yourself, which is it for you? Scripture is very clear, so be very cautious when any church or organization tells you it is anything less than a free Gift of God through faith.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
(Eph 2) Could God have said that any clearer? Therefore any Scripture which is posted to challenge this Scripture on salvation would by default have to be a deliberate abuse of God's Word and for what end? To enslave the person to their organization and build their lucrative empire.

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

So here is "yet another"

OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11 where we see 'salvation revoked"
Does not survive the Bible details in John 15 where those 'in Christ" are cut off and burned up.
Does not survive the Bible details in Ezek 18 where we see forgiveness revoked.
Does not surive the Bible details in Ephesians 6 where we see salvation revoked

Does not survive Paul's statement in 1 Cor 9 - "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"

Does not survive Romans 2:13

Does not survive Romans 2:4-9

Does not survive the details of Gal 4 "I fear I have labored over you in vain"

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

So here is "yet another"

OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11 where we see 'salvation revoked"
Does not survive the Bible details in John 15 where those 'in Christ" are cut off and burned up.
Does not survive the Bible details in Ezek 18 where we see forgiveness revoked.
Does not surive the Bible details in Ephesians 6 where we see salvation revoked

Does not survive Paul's statement in 1 Cor 9 - "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"

Does not survive Romans 2:13

Does not survive Romans 2:4-9

Does not survive the details of Gal 4 "I fear I have labored over you in vain"

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

I notice that you didn't post any of the verses you refer to so we can see the context.

Is there a reason for that?

Where does Matthew 18 say that salvation can be "revoked", particularly since, at that time, Christ had not yet died and men were still under the law?

Where does John 15 say that those who are in Christ can be cut off and burned up, particularly when Christ refers specifically to those who do not produce fruit and those who do not abide in Him?

Where does Romans 11 say salvation can be revoked?

Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to eternal security.

Ephesians 6 says nothing at all about salvation being revoked.

1 Cor 9:27 doesn't say "after preaching the Gospel to others". You're purposely adding words to the verse to change its meaning.

Romans 2:13 doesn't have anything to do with eternal security. It merely says that the doers of the law will be justified. Have you kept the law?

Likewise, Romans 2:4-6 doesn't have anything to do with eternal security because Paul specifies he is speaking about those with "hard and impenitent heart", not born again believers.

You really should take a minute to read the context of Galatians 4:11. He's not talking about their salvation, but about their placing themselves back in bondage to the law. In v 6, he calls them heirs and sons of God, not something he would say to someone who lost their salvation.

 

[steaver]

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

My post you opened with says nothing about the OSAS topic. It does however deal with salvation as a gift through faith verses being a reward of self merit (commandment keeping). How about you deal with this before we go to OSAS. First, you have to understand how one is saved or you will never understand how one remains saved.

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

How about you deal with the text in the opening post you referenced first rather than ignoring it...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
(Eph 2) Could God have said that any clearer? Therefore any Scripture which is posted to challenge this Scripture on salvation would by default have to be a deliberate abuse of God's Word and for what end?

 

[BobRyan]

I notice that you didn't post any of the verses you refer to so we can see the context.

Is there a reason for that?

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I wanted a short hand summary for the OP so that instead of having to wade through volumes of text - the reader can tell from the OP what the gist of the position is.

More than happy to post details on areas where people have an interest.

Where does Matthew 18 say that salvation can be "revoked", particularly since, at that time, Christ had not yet died and men were still under the law?

Two points in this response of mine

A. There is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.
-- so this explains how it is that before the cross - Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17... New Testament... pre-cross
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us - JUST as it was to THEM also"
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant - in Old Testament... unchanged in NT Heb 8:6-12

B. Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Where does John 15 say that those who are in Christ can be cut off and burned up, particularly when Christ refers specifically to those who do not produce fruit and those who do not abide in Him?
.

Let's look at the text.

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

 

[BobRyan]

Where does Romans 11 say salvation can be revoked?
.

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to eternal security.

Ezek 18:4 "the souls that sins - WILL DIE"

In Ezek 18 the righteous do not die - the wicked do die. This is only true of eternal salvation since in this life... all die ... both the righteous and the wicked.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

 

[BobRyan]

My post you opened with says nothing about the OSAS topic. It does however deal with salvation as a gift through faith verses being a reward of self merit (commandment keeping).

you claim in your post that once a person is saved - no living-like-the-devil will change that. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... as they say.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

you claim in your post that once a person is saved - no living-like-the-devil will change that. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... as they say.

You're lying again. Not only did he never say that, but the Biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that, if one is born again, he will no longer "live like the Devil".

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I wanted a short hand summary for the OP so that instead of having to wade through volumes of text - the reader can tell from the OP what the gist of the position is.

I see. So, you didn't want people to have to "wade through" three or four verses, but you're fine with people having to run all over God's creation to track down the verses you didn't want us to see. Weird double standard you have there.

A. There is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.
-- so this explains how it is that before the cross - Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17... New Testament... pre-cross
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us - JUST as it was to THEM also"
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant - in Old Testament... unchanged in NT Heb 8:6-12

No. The New Covenant was not in effect in the Old Testament.

B. Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

Actually, that's a parable.

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.

Yes, we should. However, this is a parable and does not contradict the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's look at the text.

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

I guess you missed the part where Jesus specified those who do not abide in Him.

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Where does that say that salvation can be revoked?

Ezek 18:4 "the souls that sins - WILL DIE"

In Ezek 18 the righteous do not die - the wicked do die. This is only true of eternal salvation since in this life... all die ... both the righteous and the wicked.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

All true. However, since it is not referring to born again believers, it is not relevant to the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

 

[steaver]

you claim in your post that once a person is saved - no living-like-the-devil will change that. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... as they say.

Looks like what you like to say..."you quoting you". Place my quote with your claims please.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Looks like what you like to say..."you quoting you". Place my quote with your claims please.

In a previous post, he purposely misquoted a verse of scripture to change its meaning, adding words that never appear in the text.

If he'll do it to God's Word, then how can we trust him to represent our posts accurately?

 

[BobRyan]

In a previous post, he purposely misquoted a verse of scripture to change its meaning, adding words that never appear in the text.

If he'll do it to God's Word, then how can we trust him to represent our posts accurately?

And what would that be? Or do you prefer not to show the point?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

And what would that be? Or do you prefer not to show the point?

I already pointed it out to you in my first post to you. Thanks for acknowledging that you don't even bother to read our posts.

 

[BobRyan]

Two points in this response of mine

A. There is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.
-- so this explains how it is that before the cross - Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17... New Testament... pre-cross
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us - JUST as it was to THEM also"
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant - in Old Testament... unchanged in NT Heb 8:6-12

B. Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.

No. The New Covenant was not in effect in the Old Testament.
.

You merely "quote you" to dismiss all the scripture above.

In what denomination would that work as a dismissal of scripture?

Notice that the text is "unchanged" in NT vs OT for the New Covenant as noted above. If the language in OT means "not available" then it would mean "not available" in the NT.

Hint - forgiveness of sins and the law written on the heart is in fact in the OT..

The point remains even though you did "quote you" to refute it.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice?'

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
My post you opened with says nothing about the OSAS topic. It does however deal with salvation as a gift through faith verses being a reward of self merit (commandment keeping).

you claim in your post that once a person is saved - no living-like-the-devil will change that. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... as they say.

You're lying again

Not in "real life".

. Not only did he never say that,

In "real llfe" steaver proposes that I turn from keeping God's Commandments and become Catholic then asks if that would have any affect on salvation .. When I quote scripture on that point of rebellion and knowing-to-do right he simply ignores the text and seems to blank out in response by ignoring the point entirely "as if" it would all not matter".

Perhaps you join him in proposing that if we dump God's commandments and become Catholic it is "no change"??/

If so you could at least explain how you imagine such a thing to be true before falsely accusing others.

but the Biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that, if one is born again, he will no longer "live like the Devil".

That is the same "perseverance of the saints" model we find in 3 and 5 point version of Calvinist OSAS - but it is not the "dump God's commandments and convert to Catholicism and it will be no change in salvation" model... and we both know it.

details matter.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Don't know what to tell you. I don't talk to you here very often and now I see why people have the opinion of you that they do. You're not only a heretic, you're also shamelessly dishonest.

Clearly, you're not interested in a discussion and certainly not in being corrected, but only in insulting and trolling.

So, with that in mind, I will now invoke Proverbs 26:4 SNIP

 

[BobRyan]

In "real llfe" steaver proposes that I turn from keeping God's Commandments and become Catholic then asks if that would have any affect on salvation .. When I quote scripture on that point of rebellion and knowing-to-do right he simply ignores the text and seems to blank out in response by ignoring the point entirely "as if" it would all not matter".

Perhaps you join him in proposing that if we dump God's commandments and become Catholic it is "no change"??/

If so you could at least explain how you imagine such a thing to be true before falsely accusing others.

That is the same "perseverance of the saints" model we find in 3 and 5 point version of Calvinist OSAS - but it is not the "dump God's commandments and convert to Catholicism and it will be no change in salvation" model... and we both know it.

details matter

Don't know what to tell you. I don't talk to you here very often and now I see why people have the opinion of you that they do. You're not only a heretic, you're also shamelessly dishonest.

cheap invectives, insults, ad hominem is not the grand "bible solution" to every detail that does not fit your preference or that you feel needs to be ignored. How is that not incredibly obvious?


Clearly, you're not interested in a discussion and certainly not in being corrected, but only in insulting and trolling.

Your interest in ditching the discussion at that point is not at all surprising if that is the method you choose to employ on this particular topic.

 

[BobRyan]

Looks like what you like to say..."you quoting you". Place my quote with your claims please.

As I said in a recent post --

In "real llfe" steaver proposes that I turn from keeping God's Commandments and become Catholic then asks if that would have any affect on salvation .. When I quote scripture on that point of rebellion and knowing-to-do right he simply ignores the text and seems to blank out in response by ignoring the point entirely "as if" it would all not matter".

That "detail" has been brought up to you repeatedly -- each time you simply ignore it as if that is just fine with your position.

 

[utilyan]

One thing is for sure. If anyone believes in OSAS they have better be CALVINISTS.

Free Will ALLOWS for the Rejection

 

[BobRyan]

One thing is for sure. If anyone believes in OSAS they have better be CALVINISTS.

Free Will ALLOWS for the Rejection

That is true - but in the Baptist context for some reason Arminian Baptists insist on OSAS even though you and I - and pretty much all Calvinist Baptists know that it makes no sense to do that.