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OSAS Trap

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Charlie24

Active Member
Every Calvinist I've ever met has a different way of explaining "unconditional election."

The bottom line is if God has chosen you as His elect you had no choice in the matter, it was not your decision, so you can't lose your salvation because God chose it for you. You have no responsibility for keeping your salvation.

The end result is OSAS.

I'll just go ahead and say it!

The Calvinists have completely disfigured the Biblical meaning of "chosen."
Yes. It is possible to logically get to a point where you come to the conclusion, based on God initiating your salvation, that you have no responsibility for keeping your salvation. But that is not what Calvinistic theology teaches. You keep your salvation, in that you persist in following Christ because as a new creature that is what you do. The Puritan warnings about the need to pursue holiness and follow Christ are used by a born again believer to assist him in doing just that. That's why in Owen's famous work "On the Mortification of Sin" he starts out by stating that this is a work for believers only. But, the point Cathode is raising on this thread is a true concern, not that the doctrine of OSAS is false, but there is a common misuse of it by some.

I would say if your understanding of Calvinistic theology leads you to think that OSAS means you don't live a Christian life, pursuing Christ and avoiding sin, then please, do not become a Calvinist. But you need to know that your understanding of the doctrine is at fault, not the doctrine itself.

Calvinist theology has had centuries to file off the rough edges, sand down the rough spots and smooth out the overall appearance.

What I have stated as the "bottom line" is in fact the bottom line.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Why would anyone go to some sinful man hoping he can forgive sin when they can go to our sinless Lord and know their sins are forgiven?

Jesus gave the power to sinful men to forgive sin, if you read your scripture.

Jesus confirms in heaven what they bind or loose on earth.

This is where ignorance of scripture really holds back people’s understanding.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I think it’s the iron sharpens iron thing or I’m greatly loved, but it’s far safer to assume the former.



Never say never Dave, I still hold out hope.
A lot of Calvinist theologians read Aquinas. Edwards really liked Thomas Kempis's "The Imitation of Christ". Sometimes Owen would complement the Catholic Schoolmen on some doctrinal point. But they also tended to think the Catholic Church represented the Anti-Christ.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
A lot of Calvinist theologians read Aquinas. Edwards really liked Thomas Kempis's "The Imitation of Christ". Sometimes Owen would complement the Catholic Schoolmen on some doctrinal point. But they also tended to think the Catholic Church represented the Anti-Christ.

By what measure? Their conflicting interpretations of Scripture?

By what authority? Who were these men to stand in judgement of anything.

Aquinas and Kempis both held to the tradition of the fathers as I do, what Edwards and Owens liked in them is the ancient patrimony of the Catholic Church, perhaps with sharper definition.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Aquinas and Kempis both held to the tradition of the fathers as I do, what Edwards and Owens liked in them is the ancient patrimony of the Catholic Church, perhaps with sharper definition.
What they liked about Kempis was that he tried to imitate Christ. He wrote a book about it. What they liked about Aquinas was his explanation of the predestination of all things which in some ways paralleled Calvinistic theology. They, and so do I, disagree completely on the claimed closeness of the Roman Catholic church to the early church fathers.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Jesus gave the power to sinful men to forgive sin, if you read your scripture.

Jesus confirms in heaven what they bind or loose on earth.

This is where ignorance of scripture really holds back people’s understanding.


Going by your logic then man should be able to heal the sick and raise the dead as that is what the apostles did. You seem to be quite selective in the way you read scripture.
A man cannot forgive sin, it is only the arrogance of the RC church that thinks they can replace God.

Jesus gave the apostles abilities that we do not have.

So I have to agree with you when you said "this is where ignorance of scripture really holds back people’s understanding" You continue to show your lack of understanding. You have chosen to allow some men tell you what the scriptures mean and have followed their false teachings.
 
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xlsdraw

Active Member
No
Makes as much sense as “ Once healthy, Always healthy.”



God doesn’t, but we certainly do make mistakes, and continue to do.



We have been saying the same Apostolic teaching for 2000 years.

Nope, it's just your Catholic jealousy of our Eternal Security. We have a peace that you can't comprehend.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 6 is very clear. If a man could lose his salvation, it is possible for him to get it back because he would have to crucify Jesus all over again.

Be consistent. If you believe a person can lose salvation, don’t pretend they can get it back. That is unbiblical, as is much Catholic dogma.

peace to you
 

xlsdraw

Active Member
Hebrews 6 is very clear. If a man could lose his salvation, it is possible for him to get it back because he would have to crucify Jesus all over again.

Be consistent. If you believe a person can lose salvation, don’t pretend they can get it back. That is unbiblical, as is much Catholic dogma.

peace to you

Catholicism is, and has always been, about human power. There’s virtually no difference between the Catholics and the Pharisees. A bunch of hypocrites that magnify themselves. They fit in perfectly with the modern invention of self-magnifying Reform Judaism.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Why would anyone go to some sinful man hoping he can forgive sin when they can go to our sinless Lord and know their sins are forgiven?

“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.” James 5

“Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.”

What ? Call the elders of the Church for healing and forgiveness of sin.

Why not go directly to Jesus?

Biblical model is to do things through the elders.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 6 is very clear. If a man could lose his salvation, it is possible for him to get it back because he would have to crucify Jesus all over again.

Be consistent. If you believe a person can lose salvation, don’t pretend they can get it back. That is unbiblical, as is much Catholic dogma.

peace to you

Mortal sin puts one outside the Church, they lose life giving grace in their souls.

To restore life, Confession of sin is necessary.

This why all the early Christians talk about confession, they quote scriptures with the clear Catholic understanding of confession and Apostolic power to forgive sin.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.” James 5

“Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.”

What ? Call the elders of the Church for healing and forgiveness of sin.

Why not go directly to Jesus?

Biblical model is to do things through the elders.

I did not say we should not pray for one another did I. I said we cannot forgive their sins. Only God can do that.

Even our faithful prayers do not heal or raise up someone. It is God that does that in response to our prayers.

I go directly to Jesus as He is the one the forgives and heals. At best man is just an intermediate step and an unnecessary one at that.

In my men's study group, which includes ministers, we pray for those that are sick or struggling with some sin in their lives. But none of us are under the impression that we can heal them or forgive their sin.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Mortal sin puts one outside the Church, they lose life giving grace in their souls.

To restore life, Confession of sin is necessary.

This why all the early Christians talk about confession, they quote scriptures with the clear Catholic understanding of confession and Apostolic power to forgive sin.
And yet, Hebrews 6 clearly states if someone loses salvation it’s impossible to get it back.

peace to you
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Mortal sin puts one outside the Church, they lose life giving grace in their souls.

To restore life, Confession of sin is necessary.

This why all the early Christians talk about confession, they quote scriptures with the clear Catholic understanding of confession and Apostolic power to forgive sin.
Please quote the scripture that states “mortal sin puts one outside the church”? The church doesn’t control who is saved.

My salvation comes from my Lord Jesus, not His assembly (church) of believers, and certainly not any man.

James is offering good advice, not dogma. Oil was often used as medicine and could be expensive. The Elders would have access to it.

Praying for others is always good and not confined to “Elders”. The idea of sin being forgiven, in this context, is that the sickness was the result of sin.

The Elders would have exercised church discipline in bringing the “sin” to the believers’ attention and encouraging them to repent, the person confesses their sin to God and they are forgiven by God, not the elders, not a priest.

I appreciate your defense of your beliefs. The BB rules don’t allow proselytizing by none baptists. Just a reminder.

peace to you
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
“Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31

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Those who have fallen into sin can go to Jesus through His ambassadors, just as we confess our ailments to a doctor to receive his curative prescription. We don’t hide our embarrassing ailments from earthly doctors, so nor should we hide our spiritual ailments from Jesus spiritual doctors.

Jesus hears your confession through the priest and forgives your sins through the priest.

Once you hear the Apostolic Judgement passed on Earth it is bound in Heaven, you are forgiven of all your sins.

The Apostles judge all the tribes of Israel as Jesus said, their thrones are established by Him.
The Father gave all Judgement to Jesus, and Jesus gave this power to His Apostles to forgive sin in His Name.
“ Just as The Father sent Me, so am I now sending you “.

All Christians who have committed mortal sins should make use of this gift of Jesus to receive the Life of Grace back in their souls.
Makes as much sense as “ Once healthy, Always healthy.”



God doesn’t, but we certainly do make mistakes, and continue to do.



We have been saying the same Apostolic teaching for 2000 years.
Yea…2000 years of heretical false teaching. Congratulations!:Rolleyes
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the most pernicious doctrines is “once saved always saved”.

It was always known that serious/mortal sin cut a soul off from God and life.

Many holding to OSAS develop rationalisations of sin and become mired in sin, they don’t treat it seriously. “ I’m saved by the blood already, I’ll just say sorry and move on “ won’t cut it with mortal sin. They compound their sin and blindness.

Mortal sins require confession and absolution from an Apostolic Successor as Jesus ministers and ambassadors. Mortal sin estranges a soul from God and requires Christ’s ambassadors to reestablish the relationship, that’s their job.

The breath of Life Jesus imparted to The Apostles for the forgiveness of sin is imparted to sinners who have died because of mortal sin.

“Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:21-23

Jesus sent the Apostles as the Father had sent Him with power to forgive sin.

"Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.“

The Apostles in their successors do judge the faithful through ministry of reconciliation, that by confession, they judge forgiven or not forgiven.

“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

“These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

“All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).

“Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop and presbyter binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed.” Jerome, Commentary on Matthew, 3:16,19 (A.D. 398).

Binding and loosing Authority means that Jesus confirms in Heaven the judgement of His Apostolic servants on Earth, Jesus granted Authority to the Apostolic servants to forgive sin in His Name.

This is a great joy and gift to the Church, that those who have committed mortal sins can be restored to life and Grace.
They don’t arrive at Judgement without already having received the Apostolic Judgement of His ambassadors on Earth.
I hold to the "P" in Tulip.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The question, @Cathode , is whether Scrioture is true or false.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now, I realize Catholics believe the verse false.

But changing the verse to read "that whosoever believeth in him might not perish and has the potential to gain everlasting life" is to call God a liar.

Either those who believe have everlasting life or they don't. Either one is saved from the wrath to come or they are not.

The problem is not OSAS but misunderstandings of the doctrine. Salvation is experienced in the present (if one is truely saved....i.e., saved from the wrath to come, saved from sin and death) but it is also pointing to a future event (Judgment).
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
I did not say we should not pray for one another did I. I said we cannot forgive their sins. Only God can do that.

Even our faithful prayers do not heal or raise up someone. It is God that does that in response to our prayers.

I go directly to Jesus as He is the one the forgives and heals. At best man is just an intermediate step and an unnecessary one at that.

In my men's study group, which includes ministers, we pray for those that are sick or struggling with some sin in their lives. But none of us are under the impression that we can heal them or forgive their sin.

The Church in James called on the Elders for prayers anointing for healing and the forgiveness of sin.
So it is through the instrumentality of the Elders prayers and anointing that people are healed and forgiven.
It doesn’t say ‘call on Jesus directly ‘.

Catholics have the biblical model.

“for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ “ 2 Corinthians 2:10

Paul forgave sin in the person of Christ, ‘Persona Christi’ we Catholics call it, where a priest forgives sin in the person of Christ.

When you act in someone’s Person, like a King or Sovereign, you are acting with their power and authority.

Which is the binding and loosing authority granted by Christ, Jesus confirms and ratifies in heaven what His Apostolic agents on earth bind or loose.

As Ambrose put it in amazement, all judgement was granted to the Son by The Father, but Jesus gives this power to the Apostles by The Holy Spirit.

So through the instrumentality of the Elders people are healed and forgiven.

The Catholic and very biblical model.
 

Stray Cat

New Member
Did not God know we would sin when he saved us?

If we could lose our salvation, what did it take to get it?

Many religions believe The Lord Jesus just is not enough. i.e. JWs, Mormons, RCs. etc.

Ephesians 2:8-9 Faith is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
 
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