OSAS Trap

[37818]

Ephesians 2:8-9 Faith is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Wrong. "Saved" is the gift of God. Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Cathode]

The question, @Cathode , is whether Scrioture is true or false.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now, I realize Catholics believe the verse false.

But changing the verse to read "that whosoever believeth in him might not perish and has the potential to gain everlasting life" is to call God a liar.

Either those who believe have everlasting life or they don't. Either one is saved from the wrath to come or they are not.

The problem is not OSAS but misunderstandings of the doctrine. Salvation is experienced in the present (if one is truely saved....i.e., saved from the wrath to come, saved from sin and death) but it is also pointing to a future event (Judgment).

Jesus is faithful for His part, so long as we remain believing in Him.

But as James told the brethren, that one of them could fall away from the Truth and end in sin and death. Stop believing in other words, and deny the truth he first received.
Further he states that a person who rescues such a one from death will have multitude of his own sins covered thereby.

So two things we can gather in the word here.

Yes the brethren can fall away from the truth and end in sin and death.

And that we who go to rescue these can merit thereby.

 

[37818]

The promise of the New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:34, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Those who perish never accepted God's New Covenant. Which God Himself keeps.

 

[Cathode]

And yet, Hebrews 6 clearly states if someone loses salvation it’s impossible to get it back.

Read James bro.

“19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” James 5

It is possible to leave the path of salvation to death, but it is also possible to rescue a person who has left the truth and is on the path of sin and death.

Take heart from the word.

 

[Cathode]

I did not say we should not pray for one another did I. I said we cannot forgive their sins. Only God can do that.

Even our faithful prayers do not heal or raise up someone. It is God that does that in response to our prayers.

I go directly to Jesus as He is the one the forgives and heals. At best man is just an intermediate step and an unnecessary one at that.

In my men's study group, which includes ministers, we pray for those that are sick or struggling with some sin in their lives. But none of us are under the impression that we can heal them or forgive their sin.

No, you can’t forgive sin, correct.

Those outside the Apostolic lineage cannot forgive, retain, bind or loose. This was a gift lost for you at protestant rebellion.

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins…” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

“The Church holds fast its obedience on either side, by both retaining and remitting sin; heresy is on the one side cruel, and on the other disobedient; wishes to bind what it will not loosen, and will not loosen what it has bound, whereby it condemns itself by its own sentence. For the Lord willed that the power of binding and of loosing should be alike, and sanctioned each by a similar condition…Each is allowed to the Church, neither to heresy, for this power has been entrusted to priests alone. Rightly, therefore, does the Church claim it, which has true priests; heresy, which has not the priests of God, cannot claim it. And by not claiming this power heresy pronounces its own sentence, that not possessing priests it cannot claim priestly power. And so in their shameless obstinacy a shamefaced acknowledgment meets our view. Consider, too, the point that he who has received the Holy Ghost has also received the power of forgiving and of retaining sin. For thus it is written: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit: whosesoever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.’ So, then, he who has not received power to forgive sins has not received the Holy Spirit. The office of the priest is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and His right it is specially to forgive and to retain sins. How, then, can they claim His gift who distrust His power and His right?” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, I:7-8 (A.D. 388).

Those that break away from the Apostolic priesthood, lose the gifts and faculties of that priesthood.

 

[Silverhair]

The Church in James called on the Elders for prayers anointing for healing and the forgiveness of sin.
So it is through the instrumentality of the Elders prayers and anointing that people are healed and forgiven.
It doesn’t say ‘call on Jesus directly ‘.

Catholics have the biblical model.

“for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ “ 2 Corinthians 2:10

Paul forgave sin in the person of Christ, ‘Persona Christi’ we Catholics call it, where a priest forgives sin in the person of Christ.

When you act in someone’s Person, like a King or Sovereign, you are acting with their power and authority.

Which is the binding and loosing authority granted by Christ, Jesus confirms and ratifies in heaven what His Apostolic agents on earth bind or loose.

As Ambrose put it in amazement, all judgement was granted to the Son by The Father, but Jesus gives this power to the Apostles by The Holy Spirit.

So through the instrumentality of the Elders people are healed and forgiven.

The Catholic and very biblical model.

Why do you RCC's continue to reject scripture. While we can pray for the sick and the sinners it is only God that heals or forgives.

Your priest does not have the authority to forgive sin. All he should do is tell people to pray to God and ask God to forgive their sin.

By your logic then any Christian can forgive sin so why bother going to your priest.

Christ may have give the power to His apostles but that does not mean that your Pope or priests have any such thing. They are all just sinful men that need a savior just like the rest of us. They have no more authority to forgive sin than the worst pagan has.

The fact that you do not know this just shows that you are trusting in what some man has told you rather than trust scripture.

 

[Cathode]

I appreciate your defense of your beliefs. The BB rules don’t allow proselytizing by none baptists. Just a reminder.

I am forbidden from proselytising anyway, no one can be forcibly converted, it’s a stupid Islamic idea. I’m dead against it, it’s one of those serious peeves I tell them about.

I can evangelise pointing out God’s Word however, that is a common right granted by Christ to all Christians including me and you bro.

 

[Silverhair]

No, you can’t forgive sin, correct.

Those outside the Apostolic lineage cannot forgive, retain, bind or loose. This was a gift lost for you at protestant rebellion.

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins…” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

“The Church holds fast its obedience on either side, by both retaining and remitting sin; heresy is on the one side cruel, and on the other disobedient; wishes to bind what it will not loosen, and will not loosen what it has bound, whereby it condemns itself by its own sentence. For the Lord willed that the power of binding and of loosing should be alike, and sanctioned each by a similar condition…Each is allowed to the Church, neither to heresy, for this power has been entrusted to priests alone. Rightly, therefore, does the Church claim it, which has true priests; heresy, which has not the priests of God, cannot claim it. And by not claiming this power heresy pronounces its own sentence, that not possessing priests it cannot claim priestly power. And so in their shameless obstinacy a shamefaced acknowledgment meets our view. Consider, too, the point that he who has received the Holy Ghost has also received the power of forgiving and of retaining sin. For thus it is written: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit: whosesoever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.’ So, then, he who has not received power to forgive sins has not received the Holy Spirit. The office of the priest is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and His right it is specially to forgive and to retain sins. How, then, can they claim His gift who distrust His power and His right?” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, I:7-8 (A.D. 388).

Those that break away from the Apostolic priesthood, lose the gifts and faculties of that priesthood.

Well since your RCC is not in the Apostolic lineage then neither can your Pope or priests forgive sin. Your Pope and priests have committed the sin of the devil, they want to put themselves on the level of God. Since you support their view then all of you need to humble yourselves before God and ask for His forgiveness. May God have mercy on your souls.

We broke away from the RCC because they had lost their way and turned away from God to worship their false god of self. The arrogance of your Pope and priests is their stumbling stone.

The more you post the more you prove the error of the RCC.

 

[Silverhair]

I am forbidden from proselytising anyway, no one can be forcibly converted, it’s a stupid Islamic idea. I’m dead against it, it’s one of those serious peeves I tell them about.

I can evangelise pointing out God’s Word however, that is a common right granted by Christ to all Christians including me and you bro.

But you should not be trying to spread the false theology of the RCC.

 

[Cathode]

Why do you RCC's continue to reject scripture. While we can pray for the sick and the sinners it is only God that heals or forgives.

Your priest does not have the authority to forgive sin. All he should do is tell people to pray to God and ask God to forgive their sin.

By your logic then any Christian can forgive sin so why bother going to your priest.

Christ may have give the power to His apostles but that does not mean that your Pope or priests have any such thing. They are all just sinful men that need a savior just like the rest of us. They have no more authority to forgive sin than the worst pagan has.

The fact that you do not know this just shows that you are trusting in what some man has told you rather than trust scripture.

Protestants and Baptist’s have many “some mans “ interpreting scripture for them. These are all self appointed.

Catholics have a long and documented Apostolic lineage and priesthood going back to Apostolic times. We follow the Apostolically appointed bishops from the beginning, through the laying of hands.

Protestantism is loaded with “ some man’s “ all conflicted in their interpretation of scripture and every wind of doctrine opposing each other, from the same Bible.
None have the Apostolic authority through laying of hands from the Apostles, these are all self appointed.
These are not the Apostolically approved and appointed men mentioned in scripture.
They don’t have the Apostolic gifts to bind and loose to forgive and retain sin in the person of Christ, nor do they claim to.

These are the powerful God breathed gifts of Christ’s Apostolic appointments. What they hold bound or loosed, Heaven equally holds bound or loosed. What they hold forgiven on earth is held forgiven in Heaven. What they say is not forgiven on earth, heaven holds it not forgiven.

As The Father sent Christ with Authority to forgive and retain sin, so Jesus sent the Apostles with the Authority to forgive and retain sin.

Believe the Scriptures.

 

[Cathode]

But you should not be trying to spread the false theology of the RCC.

I’m pointing out the truth from the words of scripture itself.

Did you even read the scriptures I posted?

 

[MMDAN]

Wrong. "Saved" is the gift of God. Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Protestants and Baptist’s have many “some mans “ interpreting scripture for them. These are all self appointed.

Catholics have a long and documented Apostolic lineage and priesthood going back to Apostolic times. We follow the Apostolically appointed bishops from the beginning, through the laying of hands.

Protestantism is loaded with “ some man’s “ all conflicted in their interpretation of scripture and every wind of doctrine opposing each other, from the same Bible.
None have the Apostolic authority through laying of hands from the Apostles, these are all self appointed.
These are not the Apostolically approved and appointed men mentioned in scripture.
They don’t have the Apostolic gifts to bind and loose to forgive and retain sin in the person of Christ, nor do they claim to.

These are the powerful God breathed gifts of Christ’s Apostolic appointments. What they hold bound or loosed, Heaven equally holds bound or loosed. What they hold forgiven on earth is held forgiven in Heaven. What they say is not forgiven on earth, heaven holds it not forgiven.

As The Father sent Christ with Authority to forgive and retain sin, so Jesus sent the Apostles with the Authority to forgive and retain sin.

Believe the Scriptures.

No, Cathode, the RCC is not following the apostles.

When Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the Church door in Wittenberg, Germany, he wrote, the just shall live by faith.

That was the problem, the Church had departed from faith to the works of the so-called Church, through doctrines of men.

 

[MrW]

I’ve been on both sides. After decades of study, I’m not calvinist nor arminian. I just believe my Bible.

Be what you choose. Here’s what I know: God called me; I answered. God chose me; I accepted. God gave me new birth by His Word snd Spirit, thus making me a new creation. I cannot be lost. Not because I keep myself saved, but because the same God that saved me keeps me saved, forever.

Y’all be lost if you want. I can’t—I’m a new creature. God changed me and I cannot change back. He’s way bigger than me.

 

[Charlie24]

I’ve been on both sides. After decades of study, I’m not calvinist nor arminian. I just believe my Bible.

Be what you choose. Here’s what I know: God called me; I answered. God chose me; I accepted. God gave me new birth by His Word snd Spirit, thus making me a new creation. I cannot be lost. Not because I keep myself saved, but because the same God that saved me keeps me saved, forever.

Y’all be lost if you want. I can’t—I’m a new creature. God changed me and I cannot change back. He’s way bigger than me.

If your faith is in the finished work of Christ and you have repented of your sins before God, never forsaking that faith, you shall fare well with God.

 

[MrW]

There is no office of priest nor nuns in Scripture.

Every believer is a priest before God and a priest must have something to offer. We offer the fruit of our lips, the sacrifice of praise.

The veil is torn; the Holy of Holies is open to the saved. I go to God in the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, not through fallen men, “pretend priests”. Christ is my High Priest, and my only Priest.

 

[MrW]

I hold to the "P" in Tulip.

I am not preserved because I persevere.

I persevere because I am preserved.

I could not save myself; I cannot keep myself.

God saved me. God keeps me.

I am totally dependent on Him.

 

[MrW]

There is NO Apostolic lineage.

Catholicism is Apostate, not Apostolic.

 

[kyredneck]

I hold to the "P" in Tulip.

Preservation. Agree.

 

[Silverhair]

Protestants and Baptist’s have many “some mans “ interpreting scripture for them. These are all self appointed.

Catholics have a long and documented Apostolic lineage and priesthood going back to Apostolic times. We follow the Apostolically appointed bishops from the beginning, through the laying of hands.

Protestantism is loaded with “ some man’s “ all conflicted in their interpretation of scripture and every wind of doctrine opposing each other, from the same Bible.
None have the Apostolic authority through laying of hands from the Apostles, these are all self appointed.
These are not the Apostolically approved and appointed men mentioned in scripture.
They don’t have the Apostolic gifts to bind and loose to forgive and retain sin in the person of Christ, nor do they claim to.

These are the powerful God breathed gifts of Christ’s Apostolic appointments. What they hold bound or loosed, Heaven equally holds bound or loosed. What they hold forgiven on earth is held forgiven in Heaven. What they say is not forgiven on earth, heaven holds it not forgiven.

As The Father sent Christ with Authority to forgive and retain sin, so Jesus sent the Apostles with the Authority to forgive and retain sin.

Believe the Scriptures.

As soon as you said "Catholics have a long and documented Apostolic lineage and priesthood going back to Apostolic times." you lost all credibility. That is just a false narrative that has no basis in fact.