OSAS Trap

[Stray Cat]

Wrong. "Saved" is the gift of God. Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I see your point. I just did not fully quote Ephesians 2:8 & 9. For by grace are ye SAVED through FAITH and that not
of yourselves, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast. I believe faith come after you get saved,
never before. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don’t skip around it man, souls are at stake. People are in pernicious delusions out there.

I remember a guy who was cheating on his wife, but said it was ok because he was roman catholic, he can just go to confession on Saturday before mass and the priest will absolve him.

People need to be warned. The drama of salvation is playing out right now.

I have a terrible dread for these people, they are in for a very rude shock.

If we don’t warn people, their blood is on us as the Lord says.

Ruffle feathers for thine own safeties sake, if not just for the love neighbor.

Do you believe in regeneration with all the help from the Holy Spirit to make one a Child of God because I sincerely do (I’m personally a new/changed man because of it. But these guys are implying that I would willingly sin and use this wonderful gift of grace as an excuse to continue to sin. The truth is that I have no desire to sin…what’s more the growth of a conscience began to grow in me so I now have something I now carry around that’s convicting me during times of temptation. Most o all, there is a love for Christ that goes deep inside me (because of all that he did for me) so how could I ever jeopardize all that He has done for me?

I do understand what you are saying and with many RC's I can have been more gentle but we have seen Cathode on here a number of times trying to push his views.

I have presented a number of fact based arguments against the RCC in other threads but he has just brushed them of and continued to repeat the standard response we have come to expect from him.

He is not looking for truth but rather just acceptance of the RCC dogma.

completely typical of the RCC, no suprised here but I do wish the HS would guide him to being a child of God rather than a card carrying Roman Catholic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All so true… and so pagan.

 

[Cathode]

So Aquinas thought the RCC way was correct, now that is a surprise.

You have shown that you fully agree with the RCC way of understanding scripture. As errant as it is.

But you can not expect us who do not agree with that view to support it. You have made many false claims on this and other threads in the attempt to support the RCC. You have not convinced anyone that that view is correct. History and scripture prove that the RCC is not following the teachings of Christ.

Cathode you are fighting a loosing battle. We are Baptists, we believe and hold to scripture not what some man or group of men tells us scripture says. From your Pope down your whole system is run by fallible men who in their arrogance think they have some special gift from God. They think they are the only ones who can rightly interpret scripture and they can add teachings to the bible that were never there.

Your RCC is more in line with the Pharisees then they are with the Apostles.

My point is that OSAS is dangerous and unbiblical, like the guy that was cheating on his wife but was saying he was assured of salvation anyway.

I see a lot of things spiritually, this guy was rotten and didn’t know it. Many are walking dead and don’t know it.

Mortal sin is real, it cuts off the life of Grace, people need to snap out of their delusions.

Jesus set up an Apostolic remedy, giving His Apostles and their successors the ministry for the forgiveness of sin. What they bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. They forgive sin in the person of Christ.

Jesus set it up this way.

 

[Cathode]

The Apostle Paul: 1 Timothy 2:5 “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the Man Jesus Christ”

You follow RCC tradition and I follow scripture.

The divide can never be reconciled.

Your attempt to find ignorant Christians and beguile them with RCC dogma will fail on the BB.

Again, thank you for clearly presenting your error so all that have eyes to see can easily understand.

peace to you

The Apostles were acting in the Person of Christ.

“ He who listens to you, listens to Me “

Think about this. It’s an extraordinary thought.

When you listen to an Apostle you aren’t listening to “ some man “, you are listening to Christ speaking.
They are speaking in the Person of Christ.

This is amazing enough by itself isn’t it.

In the light of this, read this.

“Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Not only do the Apostles speak in the Person of Christ, they forgive and retain sin in the Person of Christ.

So when you want to listen to Christ and be forgiven by Christ, you go to the Apostolic successors.

“For not only at the time of regeneration, but afterwards also, they have authority to forgive sins. ‘Is any sick among you?’ it is said, ‘let him call for the elders of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up: and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him.'” John Chrysostom, On the Priesthood, 3:6 (A.D. 386) .

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

Note John Chrysostom’s understanding of scripture here.

Priests as Apostolic successors wield heavenly authority on earth as extensions of Jesus ministry.

When you go to the Apostolic ministers, you are going to Christ.

 

[MMDAN]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Cathode]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.“

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.“

Jesus is faithful for His part.

But by mortal sin we can be cut off and wither.

We must remain in His Love, by keeping His commands.

Jesus wouldn’t be telling people to remain in His Love if it was impossible not to remain in His Love.

People can grow on the vine and be cut from the vine, to wither and be burned.

OSAS is wrong and deadly.

 

[DaveXR650]

OSAS is wrong and deadly.

OSAS is a lot like election. It is intended mainly for those under persecution or those who were afraid they would fail at some point to have assurance that Christ had saved them and would hold them till the end, either of the world or of their own lives on Earth.

OSAS in it's totality also points to the central fact about justification. That being that the merits required for justification are completely outside of ourselves, in Christ, and any works, rituals, even our faith, provide no merit towards our justification.
The Protestant idea is that one who is justified and born again has been declared righteous based on the merits of Christ and this is received by faith. But while justification is imputed and declared by God a real and actual change occurs in a saved person. A new principle of life is infused, they are a new creature. And, as men we have the ability to look at ourselves and observe this new life and new set of attitudes. Now if we don't see anything except a desire to keep sinning we are flat out not saved.

The remedy is to go to Christ for forgiveness. The remedy is not to engage in a system of self reformation, do more works, or go to someone and be told a series of things to do. The amazing and confusing fact is that the people that do this self examination are the ones who, even if they determine they are in some sin or completely false, are in fact being led by the Spirit and can become right with God. Those who are truly reprobate will not do this and usually tell themselves they are OSAS and OK, or they may rely on their salvation experience or something like that.

The argument between Roman Catholics and Protestants that protestant doctrine leads to loose living goes all the way back to Luther. Owen talked about it a lot and said, and I agree, that Catholic behavior if anything is worse than protestant behavior.

Roman justification has faith as a starting point but adds works. The Puritan Richard Baxter, for a time at least, did a similar thing and a quick search will discover that Jonathan Edwards and even John Piper have been accused of doing this and "moving towards Rome". I am just a layman and I believe that some Roman Catholics are saved and that many Baptists and other protestants are self deceived and lost but that is proof of God's mercy and the fact that the gate is narrow more than saying anything about the respective doctrines. I believe the Roman system is deeply flawed.

But I do know that from reading from Trent that Rome is against a belief in a believer being secure in the knowledge that they are saved. This is wrong. It's probably also wrong what some protestants teach - that your saving faith is invalid if your belief in your eternal security is not a big part of it. In fact, some Protestants express saving faith as a belief that you are saved, in other words your faith is in your faith. The Puritans were against this, as are most Calvinists. Calvinists, it is sometimes said, don't worry about whether or not they are saved, but they do worry about whether they are elect.

 

[Cathode]

OSAS is a lot like election. It is intended mainly for those under persecution or those who were afraid they would fail at some point to have assurance that Christ had saved them and would hold them till the end, either of the world or of their own lives on Earth.

OSAS in it's totality also points to the central fact about justification. That being that the merits required for justification are completely outside of ourselves, in Christ, and any works, rituals, even our faith, provide no merit towards our justification.
The Protestant idea is that one who is justified and born again has been declared righteous based on the merits of Christ and this is received by faith. But while justification is imputed and declared by God a real and actual change occurs in a saved person. A new principle of life is infused, they are a new creature. And, as men we have the ability to look at ourselves and observe this new life and new set of attitudes. Now if we don't see anything except a desire to keep sinning we are flat out not saved.

The remedy is to go to Christ for forgiveness. The remedy is not to engage in a system of self reformation, do more works, or go to someone and be told a series of things to do. The amazing and confusing fact is that the people that do this self examination are the ones who, even if they determine they are in some sin or completely false, are in fact being led by the Spirit and can become right with God. Those who are truly reprobate will not do this and usually tell themselves they are OSAS and OK, or they may rely on their salvation experience or something like that.

The argument between Roman Catholics and Protestants that protestant doctrine leads to loose living goes all the way back to Luther. Owen talked about it a lot and said, and I agree, that Catholic behavior if anything is worse than protestant behavior.

Roman justification has faith as a starting point but adds works. The Puritan Richard Baxter, for a time at least, did a similar thing and a quick search will discover that Jonathan Edwards and even John Piper have been accused of doing this and "moving towards Rome". I am just a layman and I believe that some Roman Catholics are saved and that many Baptists and other protestants are self deceived and lost but that is proof of God's mercy and the fact that the gate is narrow more than saying anything about the respective doctrines. I believe the Roman system is deeply flawed.

But I do know that from reading from Trent that Rome is against a belief in a believer being secure in the knowledge that they are saved. This is wrong. It's probably also wrong what some protestants teach - that your saving faith is invalid if your belief in your eternal security is not a big part of it. In fact, some Protestants express saving faith as a belief that you are saved, in other words your faith is in your faith. The Puritans were against this, as are most Calvinists. Calvinists, it is sometimes said, don't worry about whether or not they are saved, but they do worry about whether they are elect.

Catholics call the state of Grace as being saved in a sense, this is remaining in Jesus love.

“ If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love. “

Keeping Jesus commands requires works, especially to love others.

Faith must express through works of Love.

It’s not a passive intellectual assent type of faith that will save you.

So we are in the process of being saved so long as we remain in a state of Grace , something we must continue in perseverance.

 

[Cathode]

Do you believe in regeneration with all the help from the Holy Spirit to make one a Child of God because I sincerely do (I’m personally a new/changed man because of it. But these guys are implying that I would willingly sin and use this wonderful gift of grace as an excuse to continue to sin. The truth is that I have no desire to sin…what’s more the growth of a conscience began to grow in me so I now have something I now carry around that’s convicting me during times of temptation. Most o all, there is a love for Christ that goes deep inside me (because of all that he did for me) so how could I ever jeopardize all that He has done for me?

So you don’t sin anymore?

You are without sin.

 

[JonC]

My point is that OSAS is dangerous and unbiblical, like the guy that was cheating on his wife but was saying he was assured of salvation anyway.

I see a lot of things spiritually, this guy was rotten and didn’t know it. Many are walking dead and don’t know it.

Mortal sin is real, it cuts off the life of Grace, people need to snap out of their delusions.

Jesus set up an Apostolic remedy, giving His Apostles and their successors the ministry for the forgiveness of sin. What they bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. They forgive sin in the person of Christ.

Jesus set it up this way.

But it is not untrue or dangerous. Those who believe do inherit everlasting life.

People make the doctrine dangerous by minimizing what it is to believe (even the demons believe).

But that is no reason to throw out Scripture or downgrade salvation.

"Saved" refers to several things. Saved from sin and death. Saved from ourselves. Saved from the wrath to come.

One cannot be saved from something to come and yet not be saved from that thing to come.

If I am saved from something yet to come then it is impossible that become not saved from that something to come. Everlasting life means a life that is everlasting (not temporary).


BUT on that day many will profess a belief, and these would have done good works, but they will hear "I never knew you".

That is where OSAS becomes dangerous - when the doctrine is misunderstood and wrongly taught (as a license to do whatever without consequence).

And I have seen it wrongly presented, even on this board.

So I agree OSAS wrongly understood can be dangerous. But the doctrine itself is Biblical.



I think of Catholic priests who view icons as a type of "window". One looks at a statue of Jesus but in worshipful contemplation of Christ rather than worshipping the statue.

Does the fact that some actually worship icons mean Catholics are holding a dangerous and unbiblical doctrine?

By your logic it does, because some Catholics misunderstand the purpose of these things.

 

[DaveXR650]

Catholics call the state of Grace as being saved in a sense, this is remaining in Jesus love.

“ If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love. “

Keeping Jesus commands requires works, especially to love others.

Faith must express through works of Love.

It’s not a passive intellectual assent type of faith that will save you.

So we are in the process of being saved so long as we remain in a state of Grace , something we must continue in perseverance.

Catholics do not own the doctrine that faith must work through love. And "passive intellectual assent" is not saving faith but Catholic theologians did not discover that. In the Protestant confessions faith is explained by 3 different aspects so that this mistake is not made. Assent is indeed part of it but not all of it. And Protestant theology teaches progressive sanctification which is part of the process of "being saved". You are justified, sanctified, and eventually glorified. The teaching that you are justified by "faith alone" is deliberately done to avoid the mistake you fall into by thinking that your works, however important, contribute anything to your actual justification. It is not meant to discount works or love or any part of living a Christian life but to put things in a proper order.

Also. If you have been born again and are a new creature, you do not operate under a constant threat of being cast into Hell. That is a complete contradiction. Here's where you have to be careful. It's one thing to say to examine yourself and to avoid sinning and fight against the world, the flesh and the devil. But it completely misses the whole point of being a Christian to reduce this all to a church or church leaders acting as if they are holding the "keys" to the salvation of the people and they must obey their edicts or face eternal damnation. This goes for Protestants and Catholics.

This is something Calvinists and Catholics need to be careful of. My own opinion is that both groups were powerful in a time where government and church were completely tied together. Church attendance was required and the church was actually responsible for the moral aspects of civic life, in a legal sense. In such a situation I can see how they could fall into a tendency to keep people in line so to speak. In a modern church, especially nowadays, where you are more apt to be at a disadvantage for seriously joining in, fewer and fewer congregants are going to be effectively kept in line. They will, and do, simply quit if they are taught a true gospel message and the necessity of Christ being Lord. The fact that many churches, and even whole denominations try to modify their doctrine to accommodate modern sensibilities is not God's fault.

 

[Silverhair]

My point is that OSAS is dangerous and unbiblical, like the guy that was cheating on his wife but was saying he was assured of salvation anyway.

I see a lot of things spiritually, this guy was rotten and didn’t know it. Many are walking dead and don’t know it.

Mortal sin is real, it cuts off the life of Grace, people need to snap out of their delusions.

Jesus set up an Apostolic remedy, giving His Apostles and their successors the ministry for the forgiveness of sin. What they bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. They forgive sin in the person of Christ.

Jesus set it up this way.

I do find it funny that you question OSAS but then bring up your errant RCC dogma of Apostolic succession. You continue to show that it is not the bible but rather man that you follow.

 

[Cathode]

Catholics do not own the doctrine that faith must work through love. And "passive intellectual assent" is not saving faith but Catholic theologians did not discover that. In the Protestant confessions faith is explained by 3 different aspects so that this mistake is not made. Assent is indeed part of it but not all of it. And Protestant theology teaches progressive sanctification which is part of the process of "being saved". You are justified, sanctified, and eventually glorified. The teaching that you are justified by "faith alone" is deliberately done to avoid the mistake you fall into by thinking that your works, however important, contribute anything to your actual justification. It is not meant to discount works or love or any part of living a Christian life but to put things in a proper order.

Also. If you have been born again and are a new creature, you do not operate under a constant threat of being cast into Hell. That is a complete contradiction. Here's where you have to be careful. It's one thing to say to examine yourself and to avoid sinning and fight against the world, the flesh and the devil. But it completely misses the whole point of being a Christian to reduce this all to a church or church leaders acting as if they are holding the "keys" to the salvation of the people and they must obey their edicts or face eternal damnation. This goes for Protestants and Catholics.

This is something Calvinists and Catholics need to be careful of. My own opinion is that both groups were powerful in a time where government and church were completely tied together. Church attendance was required and the church was actually responsible for the moral aspects of civic life, in a legal sense. In such a situation I can see how they could fall into a tendency to keep people in line so to speak. In a modern church, especially nowadays, where you are more apt to be at a disadvantage for seriously joining in, fewer and fewer congregants are going to be effectively kept in line. They will, and do, simply quit if they are taught a true gospel message and the necessity of Christ being Lord. The fact that many churches, and even whole denominations try to modify their doctrine to accommodate modern sensibilities is not God's fault.

First off. Being Born again was always water Baptism.

Among the early Christians, many would delay Baptism to avoid seriously sinning after Baptism, because restoration by penance was public and onerous.

Many Christians lapsed under the threats of pagan Roman persecution, this would constitute mortal sin, excommunicating a person from the Church.

But we also see that these lapsed Christians were also taken back into the church and were forgiven by public confession to the bishop, and a severe penance imposed on them.

Pagan Romans were extremely inventive is devising succulent and fearful tortures for Christians, and human frailties got the better of many.
Many Christians also jumped at the chance of martyrdom, availing themselves of a God given opportunity to witness by their own blood.
Martyrdom was seen as a regenerative Baptism on its own, The Baptism of Blood.

So there was an Apostolic remedy for the lapsed to forgive mortal sin, Confession.

If you understand the early Christians on this, you understand Catholics on this.

 

[Cathode]

I do find it funny that you question OSAS but then bring up your errant RCC dogma of Apostolic succession. You continue to show that it is not the bible but rather man that you follow.

So you didn’t read the scripture I quoted.

 

[37818]

First off. Being Born again was always water Baptism

Why do you think that?

 

[DaveXR650]

Why do you think that?

Because that's what they teach in their catechism. It's the usual shell game, where if you read it, it sometimes says it's symbolic but then turns around and says the baptism itself is what regenerates you. Look it up yourself. It's right at 1262 using their index.

Among the early Christians, many would delay Baptism to avoid seriously sinning after Baptism, because restoration by penance was public and onerous.

I didn't know "many" did but I did know Augustine did. It's in the "Confessions" and is funny. He said he had some serious sinning to do first and then he wanted to get serious and be baptized. Pity the poor people who got baptized as infants. I guess they can't have any fun!

You cannot make this stuff up!

 

[Cathode]

Why do you think that?

The same reason Justin Martyr thought that.

“For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: ‘Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow…And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).

The same reason Irenaeus and Tertullian thought that.

” ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

“When, however, the prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).

The same reason Origen, Cyprian and the entire council of Carthage thought that.

“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).

“[W]hen they come to us and to the Church which is one, ought to be baptized, for the reason that it is a small matter to ‘lay hands on them that they may receive the Holy Ghost,’ unless they receive also the baptism of the Church. For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament; since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’…[O]nly baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'” Cyprian, To Stephen, 71:72 (A.D. 253).

“And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, “Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit…Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.” Council of Carthage VII (A.D. 258).

How many kindreds of the same thought do I find among the ancient Fathers.

What were they referring to for that thought.

 

[37818]

Because that's what they teach in their catechism. It's the usual shell game, where if you read it, it sometimes says it's symbolic but then turns around and says the baptism itself is what regenerates you. Look it up yourself. It's right at 1262 using their index.

I didn't know "many" did but I did know Augustine did. It's in the "Confessions" and is funny. He said he had some serious sinning to do first and then he wanted to get serious and be baptized. Pity the poor people who got baptized as infants. I guess they can't have any fun!

You cannot make this stuff up!

But those extra Biblical sources mean nothing to me.

 

[37818]

The same reason Justin Martyr thought that.

“For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: ‘Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow…And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).

The same reason Irenaeus and Tertullian thought that.

” ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

“When, however, the prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).

The same reason Origen, Cyprian and the entire council of Carthage thought that.

“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).

“[W]hen they come to us and to the Church which is one, ought to be baptized, for the reason that it is a small matter to ‘lay hands on them that they may receive the Holy Ghost,’ unless they receive also the baptism of the Church. For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament; since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’…[O]nly baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'” Cyprian, To Stephen, 71:72 (A.D. 253).

“And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, “Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit…Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.” Council of Carthage VII (A.D. 258).

How many kindreds of the same thought do I find among the ancient Fathers.

What were they referring to for that thought.

In other words baptism has nothing to do with being born again. Not that I can see.