OSAS Trap

[JonC]

Those beloved Church Fathers were quoting scripture just fine, and they interpreted them as the Apostles meant them to be understood.. . .

You are being selective. The ECF's are at odds with Catholic doctrine on many points (the Euchariat being one.....as already proven by looking at the ECF's writings as a whole rather than snips).

 

[Walter]

“For if no one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These verily are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed Head.” John Chrysostom, On the Priesthood, 3:5-6 (A.D. 387).

They don't care anything about what the early Christians believed, or the ones like Ignatius of Antioch (found in scripture) who sat at John's feet and was taught Apostolic truth. They hold on to doctrines that were never taught by The Early Church or believed by anyone before the reformers. Sad

 

[Silverhair]

Those beloved Church Fathers were quoting scripture just fine, and they interpreted them as the Apostles meant them to be understood.

The way Catholics today understand them.

Here, have some more.

“But the sacrament of baptism is undoubtedly the sacrament of regeneration: Wherefore, as the man who has never lived cannot die, and he who has never died cannot rise again, so he who has never been born cannot be born again. From which the conclusion arises, that no one who has not been born could possibly have been born again in his father. Born again, however, a man must be, after he has been born; because, ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’ Even an infant, therefore, must be imbued with the sacrament of regeneration, lest without it his would be an unhappy exit out of this life; and this baptism is not administered except for the remission of sins. And so much does Christ show us in this very passage; for when asked, How could such things be? He reminded His questioner of what Moses did when he lifted up the serpent. Inasmuch, then, as infants are by the sacrament of baptism conformed to the death of Christ, it must be admitted that they are also freed from the serpent’s poisonous bite, unless we wilfully wander from the rule of the Christian faith. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own actual life, but in him on whom the wound was primarily inflicted.” Augustine, On Forgiveness of sin and baptism, 43:27 (A.D. 412).

“No sooner do they rise from the baptismal font, and by being born again and incorporated into our Lord and Saviour.” Jerome, Against the Pelagians, III:15 (A.D. 415).

@Cathode you can refer to all the ECF's you want but we Baptists will trust scripture as clearly stated.
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Notice that we are saved without being baptized. We are baptized because we are saved not so that we will be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

They don't care anything about what the early Christians believed, or the ones like Ignatius of Antioch (found in scripture) who sat at John's feet and was taught Apostolic truth. They hold on to doctrines that were never taught by The Early Church or believed by anyone before the reformers. Sad

Have you noticed that you Walter and Cathode do not actually trust scripture but what some man has told you that scripture means. Really really sad.

 

[Cathode]

You are being selective. The ECF's are at odds with Catholic doctrine on many points (the Euchariat being one.....as already proven by looking at the ECF's writings as a whole rather than snips).

Good, give me the whole, Ive quoted them on the precise points doctrine.

 

[Cathode]

@Cathode you can refer to all the ECF's you want but we Baptists will trust scripture as clearly stated.
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Notice that we are saved without being baptized. We are baptized because we are saved not so that we will be saved.

I did one better, I quoted the Fathers who were quoting the scriptures and giving their understanding of them.

Baptism being “born again” Fathers quoted scripture. Catholic Understanding

Confession the “binding and loosing” “ forgive and retain “ Fathers quoted scripture. Catholic Understanding

These are the ancient heads of Churches from Constantinople to Lyon, they aren’t giving your interpretations of Scripture.

 

[Walter]

Have you noticed that you Walter and Cathode do not actually trust scripture but what some man has told you that scripture means. Really really sad.

Actually, as a Baptist I listened to what some man told me scripture taught every service I attended except that the church kept splitting over doctrine because apparently the Holy Spirit was leading some to believe the bible taught one thing and some others to believe another way. Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenia? Like tell me, is it limited atonement or un-limited atonement? Which one does the bible teach and explain why, please.

 

[Cathode]

Have you noticed that you Walter and Cathode do not actually trust scripture but what some man has told you that scripture means. Really really sad.

The old “ some man “ . Like some baptist theologians, I could name a few “ some man’s “ telling you what scripture means.

They don’t carry the same weight as the Church Fathers, that’s for sure.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you don’t sin anymore?

You are without sin.

I did not say that but I struggle and then pray for forgiveness… however I’m still a child of God and will remain so. There is no braking that gift

 

[Silverhair]

The old “ some man “ . Like some baptist theologians, I could name a few “ some man’s “ telling you what scripture means.

They don’t carry the same weight as the Church Fathers, that’s for sure.

I do not depend upon a man or group of men to tell me what the bible says. I have the indwelling Holy Spirit as my guide.

You continue to fight against the truth of scripture to your lose. You may not realize this but the ECF's were just fallible men. So the truth is that you trust "some man" to tell you what to think and believe.

From various threads I have been told that for the RCC there are actually three things that stand together as your final authority. Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church.

Is that correct? If so why do you think you need to add to the word of God your Tradition & the Magisterium of the Church and by what biblical authority did you do so?

 

[xlsdraw]

They don't care anything about what the early Christians believed, or the ones like Ignatius of Antioch (found in scripture) who sat at John's feet and was taught Apostolic truth. They hold on to doctrines that were never taught by The Early Church or believed by anyone before the reformers. Sad

Actually, you Catholics don't care anything about what the Apostles of Jesus Christ believed and testified.

Catholicism is Post-Apostle mumbo jumbo.

 

[Cathode]

I do not depend upon a man or group of men to tell me what the bible says. I have the indwelling Holy Spirit as my guide.

So you are infallible then, congratulations.

If only the world could have your infallible interpretations of scripture, being an oracle of God and all.

Strange that Martin Luther said the same thing ‘I Luther, guided by The Holy Spirit ‘, so why aren’t you Lutheran.

You continue to fight against the truth of scripture to your lose. You may not realize this but the ECF's were just fallible men. So the truth is that you trust "some man" to tell you what to think and believe.

From various threads I have been told that for the RCC there are actually three things that stand together as your final authority. Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church.

Is that correct? If so why do you think you need to add to the word of God your Tradition & the Magisterium of the Church and by what biblical authority did you do so?

Could you run the United States by “ Constitution alone “ or would that be chaos. Each citizen deciding his own interpretation.

Or would you need institutions of living government to go with that Constitution.

 

[Silverhair]

So you are infallible then, congratulations.

If only the world could have your infallible interpretations of scripture, being an oracle of God and all.

Strange that Martin Luther said the same thing ‘I Luther, guided by The Holy Spirit ‘, so why aren’t you Lutheran.



Could you run the United States by “ Constitution alone “ or would that be chaos. Each citizen deciding his own interpretation.

Or would you need institutions of living government to go with that Constitution.

Did I say I was infallible, NO. I am not as arrogant as your Pope.

Notice I said the Holy Spirit guides me He does not control what I think or do. I am just a fallible man that will by times error in my understanding of or even ignore His guidance. That is why we still sin even though we are indwelt by God.

Your RCC has tried to run that institution by their authority outside of Christ and see where that has gotten them. The RCC in it's arrogance considers itself to be the final authority as vested in your Popes and they could not even agree with each other. So much for them being infallible.

When I error in understanding the Holy Spirits guidance that is one thing when your Popes through their arrogance decree that all RC's error in understanding scripture that is another.

I will trust scripture not the RCC distortion of scripture.

The writer of Proverbs delivers a stern warning to anyone who would change the written Word of God:
"Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV

 

[JonC]

Good, give me the whole, Ive quoted them on the precise points doctrine.

The whole is God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Cathode]

Did I say I was infallible, NO. I am not as arrogant as your Pope.

Notice I said the Holy Spirit guides me He does not control what I think or do. I am just a fallible man that will by times error in my understanding of or even ignore His guidance. That is why we still sin even though we are indwelt by God.

Your RCC has tried to run that institution by their authority outside of Christ and see where that has gotten them. The RCC in it's arrogance considers itself to be the final authority as vested in your Popes and they could not even agree with each other. So much for them being infallible.

When I error in understanding the Holy Spirits guidance that is one thing when your Popes through their arrogance decree that all RC's error in understanding scripture that is another.

I will trust scripture not the RCC distortion of scripture.

The writer of Proverbs delivers a stern warning to anyone who would change the written Word of God:
"Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 NKJV

So you personally can be guided in interpretations of Scripture, but the Catholic Church that preserved scriptures through persecution and determined the Canon of Scripture itself by her councils, can’t be guided by The Holy Spirit.

Who is arrogant again?

Ever consider your interpretations as possibly wrong, or have you quietly granted yourself that infallibility you outwardly deny.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because that's what they teach in their catechism. It's the usual shell game, where if you read it, it sometimes says it's symbolic but then turns around and says the baptism itself is what regenerates you. Look it up yourself. It's right at 1262 using their index.

I didn't know "many" did but I did know Augustine did. It's in the "Confessions" and is funny. He said he had some serious sinning to do first and then he wanted to get serious and be baptized. Pity the poor people who got baptized as infants. I guess they can't have any fun!

You cannot make this stuff up!

No indeed you can’t, but if your a card carrying Catholic you will absorb the BS… up until the time it encroaches on the lives, both mental & physical, of your family. And that’s when you rebel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No indeed you can’t, but if your a card carrying Catholic you will absorb the BS… up until the time it encroaches on the lives, both mental & physical, of your family. And that’s when you rebel.

BTW, there is a reformed style church claiming to be an independent Baptist Church by me that has fulfilled their head count quota by taking on confused & searching ex Catholics and retraining them, a kinda reverse engineering in order to follow the scriptures vs church dogma. My own brother goes there and it has shaped him somewhat … except for the overt Calvinist bs which he rejects.

 

[MMDAN]

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.“

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.“

Jesus is faithful for His part.

But by mortal sin we can be cut off and wither.

We must remain in His Love, by keeping His commands.

Jesus wouldn’t be telling people to remain in His Love if it was impossible not to remain in His Love.

People can grow on the vine and be cut from the vine, to wither and be burned.

OSAS is wrong and deadly.

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[MMDAN]

First off. Being Born again was always water Baptism.

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[MrW]

Being born again is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the work of a man, therefore it is not water baptism. See John, chapter 3.

People do not get baptized in water to get saved; they get baptized in water to show that they are saved, to identify with the Lord Jesus Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.