OSAS Trap

[Cathode]

If the RCC was guided by the Holy Spirit then they would not be in disagreement with scripture would they. You are delusional when you make your false claims and add doctrines not found in scripture.

The Catholic Church is not in disagreement with Scripture, it is in disagreement with your misinterpretation of scripture, and the doctrines that precede from those misinterpretations. These misinterpretations have a start date in the 1500s at the earliest, and are all traditions of men.

Protestantism tries endlessly to recreate Christianity from text alone, that’s not the Church MO mentioned in Scripture.

Jesus founded an Authoritive Apostolic Church with a structure and government to teach and discipline that Church.

It was never, just pick up the scriptures and decide for yourself what it means to you.
Jesus appointed Apostolic Shepherds, and those appointed others through the laying on of hands.

“For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”

“From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church....... 25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Paul is talking to the Elders of the Church, that they keep watch over the “flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers”.

The Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit is passed on through the laying on of hands.

Paul was leaving them in charge as successors and going on to die.

 

[Charlie24]

The Catholic Church is not in disagreement with Scripture, it is in disagreement with your misinterpretation of scripture, and the doctrines that precede from those misinterpretations. These misinterpretations have a start date in the 1500s at the earliest, and are all traditions of men.

Protestantism tries endlessly to recreate Christianity from text alone, that’s not the Church MO mentioned in Scripture.

Jesus founded an Authoritive Apostolic Church with a structure and government to teach and discipline that Church.

It was never, just pick up the scriptures and decide for yourself what it means to you.
Jesus appointed Apostolic Shepherds, and those appointed others through the laying on of hands.

“For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”

“From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church....... 25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Paul is talking to the Elders of the Church, that they keep watch over the “flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers”.

The Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit is passed on through the laying on of hands.

Paul was leaving them in charge as successors and going on to die.

Ok, Cathode, let's be reasonable here.

It is believed that the apostle James, the brother of the apostle John, was the first apostle killed.

Where in Scripture was his apostleship replaced? The truth is, it's not!

James was killed early, and there was plenty of time in Scripture to announce his succession, but that didn't talk place.

Paul said that God made some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers.

Where is the apostle and the prophet today? Why is there no mention of these offices continuing in succession in the Scripture.

Paul appointed pastors and deacons, and teachers for the Church and left some in charge of doing the same in other Churches. But there is no mention of Paul's Apostolic Succession.

It is Catholic history that claims the office of Apostolic Succession, not the Bible.

 

[Cathode]

Ok, Cathode, let's be reasonable here.

It is believed that the apostle James, the brother of the apostle John, was the first apostle killed.

Where in Scripture was his apostleship replaced? The truth is, it's not!

James was killed early, and there was plenty of time in Scripture to announce his succession, but that didn't talk place.

Paul said that God made some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers.

Where is the apostle and the prophet today? Why is there no mention of these offices continuing in succession in the Scripture.

Paul appointed pastors and deacons, and teachers for the Church and left some in charge of doing the same in other Churches. But there is no mention of Paul's Apostolic Succession.

It is Catholic history that claims the office of Apostolic Succession, not the Bible.

Paul worked with his successors personally.

“Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”

The Apostles were Shepherds as in Peter “ feed my sheep “ “ tend my lambs “.

But Paul tells these elders and overseers “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. “

They are now the shepherds of the Church of God.

“29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Paul nurtured each of these elders.

“Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Do you truly not see Apostolic Succession, these were the Apostolically approved and appointed Shepherds.

Do you truly not see it?

 

[canadyjd]

The Apostles were acting in the Person of Christ.

“ He who listens to you, listens to Me “

Think about this. It’s an extraordinary thought.

When you listen to an Apostle you aren’t listening to “ some man “, you are listening to Christ speaking.
They are speaking in the Person of Christ.

This is amazing enough by itself isn’t it.

In the light of this, read this.

“Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Not only do the Apostles speak in the Person of Christ, they forgive and retain sin in the Person of Christ.

So when you want to listen to Christ and be forgiven by Christ, you go to the Apostolic successors.

“For not only at the time of regeneration, but afterwards also, they have authority to forgive sins. ‘Is any sick among you?’ it is said, ‘let him call for the elders of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up: and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him.'” John Chrysostom, On the Priesthood, 3:6 (A.D. 386) .

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

Note John Chrysostom’s understanding of scripture here.

Priests as Apostolic successors wield heavenly authority on earth as extensions of Jesus ministry.

When you go to the Apostolic ministers, you are going to Christ.

There is no such creature as “Priests of Apostolic succession”. That is unbiblical, made up Catholic dogma designed to control the ignorant.

All Apostles died by the end of the first century. Peter never went to Rome. More made up Catholic nonsense.

The commission of Christ is to preach the gospel (not made up Catholic dogma), make disciples and baptize.

It is not to control peoples lives by pretending you control whether or not they receive grace, forgiveness, entry into heaven.

peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Paul worked with his successors personally.

“Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”

The Apostles were Shepherds as in Peter “ feed my sheep “ “ tend my lambs “.

But Paul tells these elders and overseers “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. “

They are now the shepherds of the Church of God.

“29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Paul nurtured each of these elders.

“Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Do you truly not see Apostolic Succession, these were the Apostolically approved and appointed Shepherds.

Do you truly not see it?

That is the pastors job to oversee the flock, he is the overseer.

The Scripture doesn't teach succession, The apostles took that authority to the grave having started the system. Each individual Church chooses their overseer through prayer and seeking the will of God.

Christ is the head of the Church, not the Pope. The Church doesn't seek the will of the Pope, but the will of the Father.

I don't even like the the way the SBC operates, that's why I'm an Independent.

 

[Silverhair]

You condemn others interpretations of scripture as if they are wrong and hold your interpretations of scripture are right.

On what basis? Because you say you are guided by The Holy Spirit in your interpretation.

You are claiming infallibly in your interpretations of Scripture, yet when asked, you say you aren’t infallibly guided.



All the Fathers you mention were Catholic Bishops. The Catholic Councils that determined the Canon referred to these fathers for the transmission of authentic scriptures from the Apostles.

The Catholic Councils used its own lineage of bishops to determine the Canon. Those bishops were the authenticators of the Scriptures handed down.

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

The Catholic Church knew what books were handed on in the lineage bishops, and which were forgeries, those not continuously handed on through the bishops.

Clement was bishop of Rome in the first century. We see him talk of Apostolic succession.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Notice Ignatius disciple of John mentions the lineage of the bishops of Rome, Anecletus, Clement, Peter.

“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.'” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

So by the time Catholic Church canonised the Bible at the council of Rome, they had a list of books continuously attested to and vouched for by preceding Bishops to the first century, and continuously used in their churches.

That is why the Bible is a product of Catholic Tradition.

All the writings of the Fathers come down to us through the Catholic Church because the Fathers were Catholics.

Did you notice they made lists of books that were accepted by the people as scripture. They did not make them scripture by edict.
You are under the misapprehension that the RCC has the power to determine what is scripture.
It was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture was the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It just took man a bit longer to realize which ones He wanted to be included.
We have seen a number of books that were purported to be scripture by the RCC but were just written by men and were never part of Gods' canon.

Why would any logical person trust the RCC when they have chosen to misinterpret so much of scripture. Look at just some of the errors the institution has foisted on their gullible followers. Salvation is only through the RCC, salvation by good works, the priest, a man, can forgive sins, baptism saves, the the pope is the vicar of Christ and is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals. I could go on but you can see the many errors of the institution

Did you not read what I wrote "I have never considered myself to be infallible in my interpretation, I am not arrogant like your Pope and bishops."

 

[Silverhair]

The Catholic Church is not in disagreement with Scripture, it is in disagreement with your misinterpretation of scripture, and the doctrines that precede from those misinterpretations. These misinterpretations have a start date in the 1500s at the earliest, and are all traditions of men.

Protestantism tries endlessly to recreate Christianity from text alone, that’s not the Church MO mentioned in Scripture.

Jesus founded an Authoritive Apostolic Church with a structure and government to teach and discipline that Church.

It was never, just pick up the scriptures and decide for yourself what it means to you.
Jesus appointed Apostolic Shepherds, and those appointed others through the laying on of hands.

“For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”

“From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church....... 25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.”

Paul is talking to the Elders of the Church, that they keep watch over the “flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers”.

The Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit is passed on through the laying on of hands.

Paul was leaving them in charge as successors and going on to die.

God gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit as our guide. The RCC has proven itself to be a false guide through its' many false doctrines. But the RCC can not have men actually read the bible and think. The require men to submit to the whims of the Pope and priests no matter how illogical they are.

Paul was correct when he made this warning to the church.
Act 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Act 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

The RCC is the wolves that have come into the true church of God and have drawn men after them to follow their false doctrines rather than the teaching of God through His word.

But God has not left His church without a guide, the Holy Spirit, He will lead those that truly trust in God to a correct understanding of His word.

 

[Cathode]

That is the pastors job to oversee the flock, he is the overseer.

The Scripture doesn't teach succession, The apostles took that authority to the grave having started the system. Each individual Church chooses their overseer through prayer and seeking the will of God.

Succession is through the laying on of hands. s’mikhah in the Jewish Tradition was the leaning on of hands as a passing on of Authority to a Levite priest.

“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.“

Paul ordains and gave Authority to Timothy through the laying on of his hands. This is Apostolic succession, the giving over Authority.

He also tells Timothy.

“Do not lay hands upon anyone hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself pure.“

So Timothy is to judge the candidates well lest he ordain and give Authority to a bad guy. There is a guideline

“If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.“

Paul didn’t want Timothy share responsibility for appointing a bad and overt sinner. You share in the sins of the guy you appoint, he has to be blameless.

Paul tells Titus to teach and reprove with all Authority.

We see Paul handing over of Authority, this is Apostolic succession.

Christ is the head of the Church, not the Pope. The Church doesn't seek the will of the Pope, but the will of the Father.

I don't even like the the way the SBC operates, that's why I'm an Independent.

Protestantism as always had authority issues, it seems loaded with dissent and rebellion from its rebellious inception, no sooner had they rebelled against the Church, they rebelled against each other, still are. Rebellion has been raised to noble virtue status.

No one wants to obey or submit to anyone.

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.“

This only applies to those of the Apostolic lineage, they are the ones that have real Authority through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.

Timothy and Titus are scriptural examples. So after Paul died, these guys among others were given Authority and to pass on Authority through the laying on of hands.

Protestant pastors are not of the Apostolic lineage through the laying on of hands from the Apostles, nor do they claim to have binding or loosing authority.
If you disagree with them, they can’t hand you over to demons.

They are nice guys making nice suggestions, if you disagree with them they have no real authority. They’ll just suggest you find a Church more suitable to your theological tastes and interpretations of scripture.

 

[xlsdraw]

Succession is through the laying on of hands. s’mikhah in the Jewish Tradition was the leaning on of hands as a passing on of Authority to a Levite priest.

“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.“

Paul ordains and gave Authority to Timothy through the laying on of his hands. This is Apostolic succession, the giving over Authority.

He also tells Timothy.

“Do not lay hands upon anyone hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself pure.“

So Timothy is to judge the candidates well lest he ordain and give Authority to a bad guy. There is a guideline

“If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.“

Paul didn’t want Timothy share responsibility for appointing a bad and overt sinner. You share in the sins of the guy you appoint, he has to be blameless.

Paul tells Titus to teach and reprove with all Authority.

We see Paul handing over of Authority, this is Apostolic succession.



Protestantism as always had authority issues, it seems loaded with dissent and rebellion from its rebellious inception, no sooner had they rebelled against the Church, they rebelled against each other, still are. Rebellion has been raised noble virtue status.

No one wants to obey or submit to anyone.

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.“

This only applies to those of the Apostolic lineage, they are the ones that have real Authority through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.

Timothy and Titus are scriptural examples. So after Paul died, these guys among others were given Authority and to pass on Authority through the laying on of hands.

Protestant pastors are not of the Apostolic lineage through the laying on of hands from the Apostles, nor do they claim to have binding or loosing authority.
If you disagree with them, they can’t hand you over to demons.

They are nice guys making nice suggestions, if you disagree with them they have no real authority. They’ll just suggest you find a Church more suitable to your theological tastes and interpretations of scripture.

There is neither Apostolic Succession nor Apostolic Lineage in the scriptures. It's a false doctrine of the Replacement Theology Catholic Cult.

The only Succession and Lineage promises in the scriptures are to the House of Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

Succession is through the laying on of hands. s’mikhah in the Jewish Tradition was the leaning on of hands as a passing on of Authority to a Levite priest.

“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.“

Paul ordains and gave Authority to Timothy through the laying on of his hands. This is Apostolic succession, the giving over Authority.

He also tells Timothy.

“Do not lay hands upon anyone hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself pure.“

So Timothy is to judge the candidates well lest he ordain and give Authority to a bad guy. There is a guideline

“If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.“

Paul didn’t want Timothy share responsibility for appointing a bad and overt sinner. You share in the sins of the guy you appoint, he has to be blameless.

Paul tells Titus to teach and reprove with all Authority.

We see Paul handing over of Authority, this is Apostolic succession.



Protestantism as always had authority issues, it seems loaded with dissent and rebellion from its rebellious inception, no sooner had they rebelled against the Church, they rebelled against each other, still are. Rebellion has been raised to noble virtue status.

No one wants to obey or submit to anyone.

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.“

This only applies to those of the Apostolic lineage, they are the ones that have real Authority through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.

Timothy and Titus are scriptural examples. So after Paul died, these guys among others were given Authority and to pass on Authority through the laying on of hands.

Protestant pastors are not of the Apostolic lineage through the laying on of hands from the Apostles, nor do they claim to have binding or loosing authority.
If you disagree with them, they can’t hand you over to demons.

They are nice guys making nice suggestions, if you disagree with them they have no real authority. They’ll just suggest you find a Church more suitable to your theological tastes and interpretations of scripture.

The authority was given to the pastors of the Church. It is believed Timothy was the pastor of the Church at Ephesus. If they are correct, then the letter the apostle John wrote to the Ephesus Church in Rev. would have been written to Timothy.

We see things totally different with the Church, but this has been ongoing for over 500 years, and we aren't going to solve it.

Actually, I'm sorry we have this issue, but Christ told us He didn't come to bring peace on earth, but a sword. There's going to be division, and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Cathode]

The authority was given to the pastors of the Church. It is believed Timothy was the pastor of the Church at Ephesus. If they are correct, then the letter the apostle John wrote to the Ephesus Church in Rev. would have been written to Timothy.

We see things totally different with the Church, but this has been ongoing for over 500 years, and we aren't going to solve it.

Actually, I'm sorry we have this issue, but Christ told us He didn't come to bring peace on earth, but a sword. There's going to be division, and there's nothing we can do about it.

I try to explain my perspective plainly and straight forward, I don’t want to upset anyone. It’s just a perspective and I’m just a gardener, I have no status in the Church and have no training at all, so for what is.

 

[Charlie24]

I try to explain my perspective plainly and straight forward, I don’t want to upset anyone. It’s just a perspective and I’m just a gardener, I have no status in the Church and have no training at all, so for what is.

I just don't like it that we are placed in this position. It's an automatic lashing out at one another.

It's always been this way between the Prot. and Cath.

I try to avoid it and I'm sure you do at times, but it's a clash that can't be denied, it seems.

It's nothing personal, at least understand that. It's just conviction from both sides.

 

[MrW]

???

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

It says he that believes not will not be saved, not he who is baptized not.

“He who gets on the bus to Boston and sits down shall go to Boston, but he who gets not in the bus shall not go.”

The sitting is the correct thing to do but he can get to Boston standing up on the bus. Getting in the bus is necessary; believing on the Lord Jesus is necessary, not the sitting down, not water baptism. In the first place, born of water is the physical birth, not spiritual, thus we say “born again”, even though it’s actually “born from above”.

Water baptism doesn’t save anyone. 1 Corinthians 12:13 IS the baptism that saves, and NO, I am not referring to speaking in a different language.

 

[Cathode]

I just don't like it that we are placed in this position. It's an automatic lashing out at one another.

It's always been this way between the Prot. and Cath.

I try to avoid it and I'm sure you do at times, but it's a clash that can't be denied, it seems.

It's nothing personal, at least understand that. It's just conviction from both sides.

Well I do get a head of steam up when Catholics are called satanic or pagan, or the whore of Babylon, especially as it isn’t true.
Something has to be said.

 

[Charlie24]

Well I do get a head of steam up when Catholics are called satanic or pagan, or the whore of Babylon, especially as it isn’t true.
Something has to be said.

I can understand that! We Protestants feel the same about being called the rebellious, and renegades.

So there we are, under the Sword of Christ.

 

[Cathode]

I can understand that! We Protestants feel the same about being called the rebellious, and renegades.

Well the name doesn’t help. Protestant.

 

[Charlie24]

Well the name doesn’t help. Protestant.

But it was for a reason, and I know you're not in the dark as to why!

 

[MrW]

Well I do get a head of steam up when Catholics are called satanic or pagan, or the whore of Babylon, especially as it isn’t true.
Something has to be said.

I don’t think Catholics are meant to be referred to that way, but the leadership.

How do you understand the Mystery Babylon passages in the Revelation? To me, they appear to refer to the RCC, and the pope seems to fit the description of the False Prophet (not the anti-Christ personage). I don’t mean that with any vitriol. It just seems the shoe fits.

How do you understand those passages? I would be interested to know (for the record, I do believe there are some saved Catholics—and some saved Baptists—I wish all were saved).

 

[Cathode]

I don’t think Catholics are meant to be referred to that way, but the leadership.

How do you understand the Mystery Babylon passages in the Revelation? To me, they appear to refer to the RCC, and the pope seems to fit the description of the False Prophet (not the anti-Christ personage). I don’t mean that with any vitriol. It just seems the shoe fits.

How do you understand those passages? I would be interested to know (for the record, I do believe there are some saved Catholics—and some saved Baptists—I wish all were saved).

A major part of the reason Christianity is divided is due to speculative private interpretations of scripture.
If you were going to, couldn’t you suppose the False Prophet to be from where Christianity has long condemned a so named false prophet already, in Islam.
Has not Islam a future all uniting messianic figure prophecied in its system?
Could you suppose the recent attempts at establishing a radical Islamic state a preamble to something wider.

 

[JonC]

A major part of the reason Christianity is divided is due to speculative private interpretations of scripture.
If you were going to, couldn’t you suppose the False Prophet to be from where Christianity has long condemned a so named false prophet already, in Islam.
Has not Islam a future all uniting messianic figure prophecied in its system?
Could you suppose the recent attempts at establishing a radical Islamic state a preamble to something wider.

Christianity has been divided into sects over doctrine since the beginning of the Church.

The Apostolic Church, for example, was unified in Christ but had different practices (the church in Jerusalem, in Corinth, in Galatea....these were different and had different practices).

The ECF's disagreed on interpretation. We can read their disagreements.

Even now we can look at the Roman Catholic Church and several Protestant denominations and see they reject the interpretation of the Apostalic and Early Church on essential issues like what Christ accomplished.

Here the Roman Catholic Church rejects the ECF's interpretation and sides closer to Thomam Aquinas.